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Planners withoutreading any Key Engineering drawings

13 replies [Last post]
Mon, 2007-09-17 09:38
Carmen Arape
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To all,

Apparently the new generations of Planners think that sitting in front of P3 is enough to control the Project.

Would like to ask to PP members, which documents you think a planner must read/understand/track because they are KEY documents:

My experience tells me the following:

Process: PFDs & P&IDs
Piping: line list, plot plan, attend all model review .
Civil: foundation location plan, layout and details for important structures, building drawings among others.
Electrical: Key single line diagram, cable/tray routing
Instrum: instrum. Index, cable/tray routing.

Datasheet for all major Equipment (all disciplines)

PLEASE, correct If I am wrong.

How can we be fully involved with EPC schedules without reading and understanding any drawing.

If it is so, I would say : planners with secretary mentality.

Cheers,
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Thu, 2010-11-04 15:21
#1
Rafael Davila
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Here we call them "keyboard jockeys", we go a step further meaning there is no mentality at all.

I do not know of a single contractor that delegate management and planning to the unqualified, on the other hand, my other hand is not enought to finish the count of the many A/E firms that provide cheap CM Services using the most unqualified personnel, perhaps because they play PM not at Risk, with PM at Risk you differentiate the kids from the grown ups.

Regards,

Rafael

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Thu, 2010-11-04 14:58
#2
Jerry Robinson
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As a new member of this forum I am wondering why it upsets you all so much that some "planners" cannot read single line electrical diagrams, P&IDs or Full Technical drawings with cherries on top! Surely this is a forum where "planners" of all experience and backgrounds can come to get guidance and help when it's needed! The sounds coming from some people on here are elitist at best. . . We are all out in the workplace to try and get on and make a mark. I am happy to share my expertise with anyone that needs it and have been helped, in turn, by many, many planners / colleagues in my time as a planner. Anyone who doesn't feel that they want to do that or who feel that just because some "planners" didn't take the time to do course after course after course should maybe leave this site and join www.Ifeelharddoneby.com :-) 

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Thu, 2010-10-07 08:49
#3
Daniel Limson
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Hi Carmen,

Sorry for resurrecting this piece of discussion once again, I am kinda idle nowadays and just browsing over the discussions here and I find them all interesting. The forum is really a great way to share and learn at the same time.

Generally, i agree with all the comments here (this thread), however, there is one thing that is missing though and it is the most important thing, the philosphy and methodology behind the tender.

Basically, a project is awarded to a contractor based on their technical and commercial proposal and as a Planner who just got on board, the first thing you need to know is your winning philosphy and methodology. This includes your tender programme, resources and proposed production rates, methodologies, execution plan, etc. These documents should largely dictate on how you plan to build the project and how you will develop the programme. Of course you also need to double check the data behind the proposal (tender) against the awarded contract, most of the times there are changes.

Best regards,

Daniel

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Mon, 2007-10-22 00:03
#4
Muhammad Jawad Sh...
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I dont know why we are calling P3 or P5 planners as planners if they dont know about specs, BOQ and contract drawings.
The first stage of project management is Scope Management and that has nothing to do with Primavera, its all about engineering skills and not computer skills.
Remember
"A Planner who cant read the drawings and BOQ in full detail is nothing but just a Primavera Software Operator"
Take Care
Muhammad Jawad
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Wed, 2007-09-19 13:04
#5
Anoon Iimos
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first of all, you should read and understand the Contract; study the Scope of Works (Baseline Programs must cover the full Scope of Works as per Contract); have a copy of the Bill of Quantities (BOQ); study the quantities and costs; review the drawings from time to time; create your time schedule as per your company standards based on your resources-productivity rates; make recommendations to upgrade available resources if practical and necessary; take a break and have coffee...
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Wed, 2007-09-19 01:30
#6
J Venkatesh PMP P...
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Carmen,

The MOM of the pre-bid meeting also needs to be added in the list...

J
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Wed, 2007-09-19 01:27
#7
J Venkatesh PMP P...
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HI...

In my opinion, planner should read all the docs related to the project...Wud be better, if he had completed this exercise before starting the detailed construction programme..without reading the things, how one can consider/think and add those things in the programm...This detailed exercise/homework during the start of project will make his life easy during the execution...

Further, the lack of information provided to the planning from the site may affect the planner during the time of updating/tracking only....

regards
J
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Tue, 2007-09-18 02:42
#8
Carmen Arape
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Frederic,

Fully agree with the documentation you have added to my list.

Gathering information right after the Contract award and before the kick-off meeting, the Company instructs us to request the following information:

Copy of Contract
Scope of Work
Project Execution Plan
Estimate
Management Level schedule (as presented in proposal)
Risk assessment

If we do not follow this recommendation, it is matter of the mentality of each Planner. Some of them prefer to have useless schedules.

Cheers
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Tue, 2007-09-18 00:08
#9
Adedeji Adelaja
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To create an effective plan, a thorough comprehension of the objectives is necessary, this implies that the planner must take time out to study all documentation/communication pertinent to the task at hand.

Any other way results in a schedule fraught with risks
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Mon, 2007-09-17 19:53
#10
Frederic Fasquelle
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Carmen,

Of course it is very important to understand how is roughtly working the Unit, each scheduler has to made his own experiment and his own data base and thus must go through project documentation. Firthermore, I agree with James, I found so many PM that asked you "why do you need it", but I resign myself now to fight on each project to get information.

Well, Carmen what you propose are as you said basic document that shall be handled and understood by all schedulers. I would add equipment list, UG drawings (piping/CW) for engineering.

For Project, we must have a copy of the contract where are clearly written Scope of Work, milestones, progress measurement,......In addition to this contract, we should get manhours to be spent for Engineering, Procurement and Construction in order to look for productivty and any deviation that should come to Claim may be.

For Procurement we must know strategy that will be choosen with the number of requisitions to be placed.

For construction schedule, we should receive during the Engineering phase all MTO for piping, electrical, instrumentation, CW,...We apply ratio on these quantities and we can estimate manhours. These have to be compared to initial estimation from the begining of the project. At the begining of project, I personnaly made a table where I write main operation and quantities needed to estimate mhrs.


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Mon, 2007-09-17 10:21
#11
Carmen Arape
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James,

I can not believe that you fly blind.

To the question “Why do you need to Know” I found some words such as: I am following Company’s procedures. Please be aware with procedures.

Matthew,

Fully agree with you regarding specifications, especially in the case of moving to Site as a Site Planner.

Cheers,




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Mon, 2007-09-17 09:53
#12
Matthew Edwards
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Carmen

The specification for all design disciplines ( Architect / Engineer / M & E / Fire Engineer etc ) must be understood in detail. This one is a common oversight.

Regards

ME
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Mon, 2007-09-17 09:53
#13
James Barnes
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I prefer to fly blind. More exciting that way

Seriously though, imo you are on the money. I read everything about the job I can get my hands on, particularly interesting contractors and subcontractors’ special conditions of contract.

I have worked with several "bring me the info" type of planners. Give them a shovel and tell them to go dig.

Of course, equally frustrating are PM / day controllers who fail to provide the information when it’s requested (the "why do you need to know" type of managers and engineers). That’s another story though.
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