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Freelance Or Perm, which way is the market going ?

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Ian Cowx
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Dear Planners, I am interested to hear viewpoints on whether you feel the market suits Freelancers or Permanent staff at the moment ?
I know what I think and speak to Planners all day long but thought I would open the debate up in hear and see what developed.

Replies

Brad Lord
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apart from the 20% i get ripped of for sometimes, Ian you might not get that but the agency does
Roger Booth
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Hi all
Again I have been on both sides of the fence, but now with a settled lifestyle, enough money put by for a rainy day and earning a reasonable wage as a permanent member of staff I prefer to be as I am. Sub contracting was good for me in its day, but I got fed up of all the travelling. I never got time to relax at home at the weekend, I was always getting ready for my next week away. At my time of life (50 ish) I like the steadier type of work that you get as a perm memebr of staff
Ian Cowx
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Dieter, Iam surprised to learn there are consultants or even freelancers working to such agreements. If I tried that and my client / freelancer found out I doubt they would work with me again.
Maybe the expectations are different in Germany.
Dieter Wambach
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Ian
what was your mistake? I know freelancers with that ratio.

Dieter
Ian Cowx
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Dieter, I am hurt ! As an "agent" myself I wish I was receiving half the rate Freelance guys and girls are getting. There is a popular misconception that "agents" get a huge slice of the rate a freelancer is paid. Trust me it is not true !
Dieter Wambach
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Hi all

As probably most of us I worked on both sides as well and decided that perm is the best for me. This was influenced by German conditions. You have many rights as an employee against no rights as a freelancer.
Money: Some make the big money as freelance, but most work for an agent who takes half or more of the rate. So the difference isn’t as big as it seems at the first glance
Salary is lower per day and lower taxes as well. But as a freelance you get paid just for those days you work. As perm you have 6 weeks of paid holidays a year + additional holidays, e.g. carnival.
Termination period: 3 to 6 months against from one day to the other. This is a benefit for the employer as well.
Other arguments already given in this thread.
For our team we need a person and we decided for a permanent.
Regards to all and have a nice week-end!
Dieter
Ian Cowx
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I think Alex has nailed it right on the head, his point that some people are willing to make lifestyle sacrifices in order to make "more money" (? another debate altogether?) and some want to be near home to spend time with friends and family, run a reasonable lifestyle (maybe not the latest sports car in James’ case) and be happy ! Aaaahhhh ! !

It’s Friday everybody and the sun is shining !
James Griffiths
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Clive,

Fortunately the wife was not involved in any of the "incidents". Well, actually, that may not be so fortunate, ’cos if it was her, then I could at least ban her from driving my car!!!

Back to the thread: Everyone is right!!

The reason why I’ve stayed here, as a permi, for nigh-on seven years, is because it gives me everything I seek, in terms of Mazlow’s Hierarchy of Needs. The company has provided for the first few levels. I seek now the pinnacle of self-actualisation. Anyone got some LSD :-)
alex ebner
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I have worked both sides of the fence aswell. There are so many variables and factors that can influence which of these working environments is more preferable.

I don’t know what its like in Europe and Asia at the moment but in Australia there is so much demand for planners and project controllers that we can pretty much pick and choose where we work, how we work, and who we work for (lucky us eh!) I think people in all professions are looking for more flexibility (work hours, pay, working from home) these days. At the moment the freelance environment supports this very well however I think many companies are beginning to realise that they need to offer a bit more flexibility to keep their valuable resources from jumping ship all the time.

As IT software and infrastructure continues to improve the opportunity to work from home and outside ’normal’ hours will increase in both freelance and perm environments.

At the end of the day it depends on what you value more. Some people are willing to make lifestyle sacrifices to earn more money while others (like myself) prefer to have a bit less pay and more time to spend it with my family and friends.
Jerome Atkin
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Sorry about my post when I read it seamed that I was ranting on a bit. I’ve had one hell of a sh!t day !!!
In short, I think if you are happy with what you’re getting paid, will be in a job, which you can progress. Then does it really matter if you are a sub contractor of an employee, what matters is your happy with your decision.
As I feel all below are.

Jerome Atkin
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From my experiences, I think contractors get the same treatment as employees.
I get invited to Christmas parties; I get brought beer from the boss after work.
I have always been included just as much as others in terms of a “team”.
When I did work for a company I worked my socks off trying to impress to get a good foot in. I worked on site doing nights and also planning as well, saving this company a lot of money thought the year by me doing the work and them not having to hire someone in to do it (railway duties (Snr Picop – E.S – P.C) and also the planning aspect.
What did I get….. Nothing not even a thank you.
So from then on I have been a sub contractor.
When in the UK I was paid a good rate, good company and was in long-term work.
I also do not like to feel comfortable with work; If there is a risk I could be gone tomorrow, keeps me on my toes today to ensure my sh!t does not stink, my work is always up to date.
In this day and age where contractor works alongside employee I do not think there is much difference in treatment of staff. As far as secutity goes – if your good then they will not let you go. The hardest thing I done was make the uncertain step of contractor to Sub-contractor, but I have never looked back since.
Young mans game, I know sub-contractors who are in long term work who are 55 +
For me I have earned enough money to have two houses (one rented out) and new car for my wife and myself and a nice life style. As far as expenses go you can claim back – Travel, Petrol, food, phone bill, office at home – lots of stuff to ensure you are taking home the maximum amount without breaking any laws.
Again for me it is what “I can get” as most companies I have worked for really see you as a number and a good result if they can get your services on the cheap.
I am happy being a sub contractor; I get to see lots of different aspects of planning from different planning teams, new industries and new friends.
If you are the sort who does not mix well then maybe staying where you are day in; day out is best, you might feel you are great in your job – but someone else in another company will not think the same !!!
I feel sub contracting has given me a lot, money, friends from different industries and great experience in planning from Railways – High rise buildings, oil & gas, heavy Civils. I have now got the opportunity to expand further in another country, I love my job and I am still a sub contractor !!! I have not been out of work in years for a long length of time as I know a lot of people who value what I do.
Clive Randall
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By the way my car is also 17 years old with a leaky roof and seats that fall apart but I love it.
Clive Randall
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James
Was it the chocolate eating wife who caused the accidents or is she the idiot driver?
I am at a loss to know.

The lifestyle choice though is important, I do get from time to time offers from headhunters in Papau New Guinea who offer me incredible deals to work in harsh environments for people who resemble ta place where the sun does not shine.

Not for me, I am afraid I like to go home and see my family and live a reasonable life. Contract works is a young mans game in my limited opinion, they dont need the healthcare but do need the money.
Ian Cowx
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James, what a cracking reply. I nearly spat my coffee out reading that !
At last somebody with a pro-permanent well balanced and I would say, well reasoned argument.

Come on the rest of you ! !
James Griffiths
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Dunno about which way the market is going - but it seems to depend on the industry. I’ve been on both sides of the fence and it’s near impossible to say which side is better. Each one has its own distinct advantages and disadvantages. Contracting definitely has the money but you probably suffer the consequence of continual work change, family disruption, commuting/living-away. I’ve known many a sub-contractor who has forgone the money so that they could be closer to home. Moreover, by the time you’ve paid all your expenses, does it really provide that much more of a nett income? (this is wholly dependent on one’s level of seniority etc.) Permanent: the main benefit is that of security, being part of a team and being recognised for one’s skills and experience (opportunity to influence & educate???) - a wider variety of work without the need to go through the rigmarole of changing jobs - and getting to know how the individual team-members think and work. The pay?? Well, very few people are ever satisfied with what they earn and we could all do with a bit more. However, that is down to the individual and their lifestyle/budgetary requirements - (although house-prices are the biggest influencing factor). Even though I have a very modest lifestyle, my commuting is minimal and my pay is quite low relative to a contractor, I can still afford to raise two children, pay a small mortgage, allow the wife to be a full-time mother - run two cars - save some money.....and still get home to be with my girls every night. Actually, I have zero social-life and haven’t seen the inside of a pub for about ten years. I drive a 17 year-old car that has been front-ended, rear-ended and scraped on a least three occasions (all by other idiot drivers) - and the wife eats about 4 tons of chocolate every month :-)

Ultimately, I’d say that the biggest factor is that of house prices. I’m happy to change jobs - on a permanent basis, but I’d need a 50% pay increase, should it require moving house (or paying for my own expenses).....and this is just to stand still in terms of nett disposable income. Yes, I could command that sort of salary (and more, should I go contract); but would I get improved job-satisfaction and a better work-life balance?....highly unlikely.

James.
Jerome Atkin
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What you trying to say Ian !!!!!! LOL
Ian Cowx
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Gerome, It’s great to have your views on here. I can see entirely where you are coming from, hopefuly someone will join in with a Pro-Permanent view and we can get a debate going.
As for companies "taking anybody who can run the software" I have to disagree totally for UK clients but agree entirely for UAE clients. That is one major difference between Middle East and UK.
Jerome Atkin
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Ian,

I found for my perspective that I needed to be freelance due to the cost of living in the UK.
I did for a little time take a full time position but due to being a sub contractor for so long I totally forgot about PAYE and how much you will actually take home. When I got my first pay packet I nearly fell down crying… I used to earn more in a week and a half than what they were paying me for a month. Don’t get me wrong I was earning a good salary for the role; but the tax man took the P!SS. The perks I find are not that good, sick and holiday pay yes are big ones, but I don’t get sick much !! As for the other stuff most of it you can claim back through a LTD company status.
So it is what is in your pocket, which is important I feel.
Also if you are a good planner you will not be out of work for too long, the market is strong around the world right now for planners of all types, companies will take anyone who can work the software !!! Not necessarily be a planner !! So the good ones can really earn a good wage and get long term work on good contracts.
Ian Cowx
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Gerome, a completely fair and honest view. Thanks for that, it is all about each persons needs I think, some planners are willing to risk being out of work at short notice and having to look for new positions, some people want a guaranteed regular amount of money per month and the stability of being PAYE.

I would say (from my view as a recruiter) that the perm guys are getting some good salaries nowadays as more people jump ship to go freelance....hopefuly for you the freelance ship won’t overload and show signs of slowing down / sinking ! !

Either way it’s always a challenge finding good planners for either Freelance or PAYE out there right now for an ever growing list of clients.
Jerome Atkin
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Well I have been on both ends in the U.K.
I will stick with just a “Planner” for a rate comparison.
Being employed by a company – Medical (Bupa), Pension, sick & holiday leave, car or travel allowance, training. A planner can expect 35k – 40k. But then the taxman hits you and you take home f@ck all. You can get a conversion tool on take home PAYE from the internet so I wont bore you with it.

Sub contractor you get a better “Per day rate”(300 – 400 in some cases depending on experience) but forgo the above in terms of perks.
Earning the “MORE” money I think is a better option.
The company however still pays the same either way – Medical (Bupa), Pension, sick & holiday leave, car or travel allowance, training = $$$$$$$$ + if you are a sub contractor they can flick you out the door on a moments notice.

I think the only person p!ssing himself laughing in the whole deal is the consultant who does none of the work and gets a good commission on your head !

So in answer to this post for myself anyway I would always stick to being self-employed. It does mean you have to watch your money for a rainy day… but if you are good in health and are a good planner you can earn some big bucks.
Ian Cowx
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Oops I can see how you might interpret that, not what I meant, honest !