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Do ’Calendar Days’ include public holidays? (UK IChemE)

16 replies [Last post]
Mon, 2009-09-28 05:05
Gary Whitehead
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I have a contract which sets out 14 days for client approval of documentation

In the conditions of contract, ’days’ is defined as ’calendar days’

The Contractor’s schedule has used a calendar with public holidays for some of the client approvals, and without public holidays for others.

Clearly I have to go back to the contractor and insist a consistent approach to be used, but which of the two approaches should I request is followed?

Obviously not including public holidays like Xmas within the 14 day approval would favour the client, for whom I am working. But if the standard practise is otherwise, I’ll go with that.

Cheers,

G
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Tue, 2009-09-29 08:31
#1
Rafael Davila
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The only holidays allowed in calendar days are Jehovah’s Witnesses holidays.
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Tue, 2009-09-29 04:41
#2
Dieter Wambach
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Hi Anoon

(Mike, sorry to jump on the waggon again)

In a normal EPC plan you have:
- 7 days 24 hours for lead-times
- 6 days for site in North Africa; Friday off
- 5 days for office in North Africa; Friday and Saturday or Thursday and Friday off
- 5 days for office in Europe; Saturday, Sunday off

plus different public holidays for different countries.

Regards from Germany

Dieter
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Tue, 2009-09-29 04:07
#3
Mike Testro
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Hi Anoon

The number of calendars that you use depends on the complexity of the project.

I am currently working on a relatively small office fit out in London.

Some of the noisy work can only be done on a night shift so I need two calendars

1. 9 hr day 5 day week for the day shift
2. 7 hr day 5 day week for the night shift

Plus another 8 hr day 7 day week for accelerated working.

As you know I only use one resource called Hours but these are split to Night Hours with an efficiency rate of 80% and Day Hours set at 100%

The work volume for Night & Day hours are extracted from the cost plan and modelled to the gang size.

Using FS links it is possible to replicate the fact that Day shift and Night shift can work in the same space and time zone in the programme.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Tue, 2009-09-29 01:44
#4
Anoon Iimos
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Hi Mike,

I’m making an attempt to response earlier but my computer crashes (now I’m lost), but anyway instead of making weird statements, I may just want to ask questions related to calendars (if I’m allowed of course).

First, I don’t know anything about calendars, there are several calendars in this world I believe, but the only one I knew is the one you sing when you are in the kinder garten...30 days of September, April, June and November...

Now my questions:

1. Is it necessary to use several calendars for a certain project with several tasks? Or you will only get the correct result if you only use one calendar for all the tasks or one calendar for the whole project?

2. If the only way to get the correct result is to use one calendar for a task, does this mean you only need to use one calendar for a resource or group of resources (crew) assigned to a certain task?

3. How old are you without using calendars?

cheers!

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Mon, 2009-09-28 15:36
#5
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Gary,

You can do a quick search for references over the net. One search yielded the following:

www.businessdictionary.com/definition/calendar-days.html - Cached

calendar days
All days in a month, including weekends and holidays.

Another option is to ask UK IChemE if the have a definition for it.

With kind regards,

Samer
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Mon, 2009-09-28 12:00
#6
Mike Testro
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Hi Anoon

You wrote

"Just a side question (if I may), are you using P6 - resource loaded with resource calendars?

If yes, can you tell us how the three calendars you mentioned worked?"

In Powerproject there is a tick box in the resource modelling dialogue that says "Resource Calendar as Task"

I would expect that an advanced piece of software such as P6 would have the same facility.

Since you can only have 1 calendar per task then the correct calendar is always assigned to the resource

I would never put different calendars on resources as this can have weird reults on rescheduling.

There is the apocryphal story about the gang on three carpenters - 1 Catholic 1 Jewish and 1 Moslem and you never got a full weeks work from the gang.

Best regards

Mike Testro.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Mon, 2009-09-28 11:54
#7
Lawrence Cuozzo
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Dieter,

To answer your question, for most of my projects, submnittals are on a 5-day work week + holidays calendar (working days). The "calendar" days stipulation usually is for Milestones and Substantial Completion. And since transit in New York City is operating on 24/7 basis, if someone actually wanted to deliver a document on Christmas Day, they could.

Lawrence
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Mon, 2009-09-28 10:22
#8
Rafael Davila
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Gary

When you talk about duration you talk about calendar days unless otherwise noted, I thought it was universal. If the contract did not make the exception then it is too late.

A fixed approval of documentation time is usually not specified in our bid documents unless we ask on our pre-bid meetings, our Architects very conveniently use the term whatever reasonable time it takes them, this from the AIA Standard form of Agreement. To us it means “whatever I f@#$%-ing want it to be”. The usual answer, after a few punches, is on or before (sorry no deliveries on Sundays) 14 calendar days for typical reviews with some exception on more complicated reviews. This do not prevents the owner from using available float, but protects the contractor when there is no available float.

I don’t see anything wrong for it to be work days, but it should be clearly stated along with a schedule of holidays, before contract signing.

Best regards,
Rafael
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Mon, 2009-09-28 09:59
#9
Gary Whitehead
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Thanks gents for your responses.

I agree with Mike’s interpretation that there are 365.25 calendar days in a year.
The client, of course, thinks we should go with the other version but that’s a battle I should be able to win now that I can tell them with some backup that my interpretation is considered UK standard.

Cheers,

G
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Mon, 2009-09-28 09:54
#10
Anoon Iimos
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R. Catalan,

Just a side question (if I may), are you using P6 - resource loaded with resource calendars?

If yes, can you tell us how the three calendars you mentioned worked?

cheers!
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Mon, 2009-09-28 09:42
#11
R. Catalan
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Gary,

Your scheduling requirement for Client’s approval of documents in 14 days is typical to most projects.

In our project we use two to three calendars:
1) Cal 1 Work Days - is to reflect Public Holidays and all Holidays as non-workdays
- All approval of documents by Client/PMC/Consultants/Government Authorities
- All working activities

2) Cal 2 Calendar Days - reflects Public Holidays and all Holidays as workdays, for the following activiies, but not limited to,
- NTP
- Substancial Completion
- Curing of concrete
- Delivery of materials

3) Cal 3 - to reflect Client/Consultants non-typical holidays (if they have 5 days workweek)

Best regards,
R. Catalan
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Mon, 2009-09-28 09:21
#12
Dieter Wambach
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Lawrence

Does this mean that you’ll have to deliever a document e.g. on Christmas? Who will sign for acceptance or arrival of that document?
In Germany I know a condition similar to "... or the first working day which follows a public holiday".

Regards

Dieter
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Mon, 2009-09-28 09:19
#13
Mike Testro
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Hi Gary

My understanding of the accepted definition of Calendar Days in the UK is the number of days on the calendar between two dates - across any Holidays or Weekends.

The alternative is Working Days where Holidays and Weekends are excluded.

So a 10 working day period spanning Christamas would equate to 24 calendar days.

And likewise a 14 calendar day period spanning Christmas would leave 4 working days.

It would seem that the Client has not thought the problem through - he may wish to add an addendum to the definitions to clarify the situation.

Best regards

Mike Testro
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Mon, 2009-09-28 08:50
#14
Lawrence Cuozzo
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Gary -

I deal with government contracts exclusively on the client side and for us, calendar days, INCLUDES holidays and weekends.

Lawrence
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Mon, 2009-09-28 08:10
#15
Gary Whitehead
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Anoon,

If client approval of design docs was contractually required "as soon as possible" instead of within a set time-frame, who decides what’s "possible"?
Is the client allowed to sack all but 1 engineer, and create an approval backlog of several months?
Is the client obliged to recruit additional engineers to approve quicker? How much quicker?
If the client doesn’t approve, after how long can the contractor claim a lack of response equates to approval?

Using vague statements like ’as soon as practicable’ instead of clearly defining the client’s obligations in the contract is asking for trouble, in my view.

If ’calendar days’ includes public holidays then fine -The client knows he may have to provide holiday cover.
If it doesn’t, then this is also fine -The contractor knows he has to allow for holidays in his schedule.
The key thing is clarity.

Cheers,

G

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Mon, 2009-09-28 07:46
#16
Anoon Iimos
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Gary,

I don’t have an answer, just more questions.

Are statements in the contract really practical (or something that can realistically be done)?

Like for example: Why they always state "calendar days" when they already knew that there are lots of holidays in this real world? (not mentioning unforeseen calamities).

Why not just say "as rapidly as practicable"; or as soon as possible?

cheers!
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