Activity on Arrow and Non-Continuous PDM are wrong.

Vladimir,

I know what do you mean but this is not included on this exercise. We only comparing apple to apple as per example. Maybe we can demonstrate another problem illustrating this issue using same comparison again. I’m happy to know what bugs really reside on P6 so all users/planner become aware.



Rafael,

I used only same comparison with the sample that you illustrate. As I said (if you read my post) P6 did not touch or did not levelled Task 2 for having over allocated loading which is indicated on the log file. (A1010 not level using forward, A1010 not level using backward). On the figure comparison (apple to apple) using same resource loading it show exactly the same including resource histogram.



I suggest that if possible try overloading resource on Task 2 and let us know what will be the result. It’s very interesting to know if your tool will come up different result.



Best Regards,

Rodel

Vladimir,

I agree with you that P6 will not physically prompt the user if the resource is overloaded. The user needs to check the histogram or unit/time to know the reason why? I figure it out when I overload all resources and P6 done nothing. It did not level resource and everything is the same. Like what you said every package have differences and I think this one is missing in P6 (prompting the user why it is not levelling). The fastest way to check the error is by reading the log file when selected Log to file option. It mentions which activity cannot be levelled.



In regards to 50% assignment as I mention on other post (using multiple calendar), P6 responded based on calendar and hours per time period settings.

If you need 50% per resource then calendar must set on each resource. (ex: R1[a]=8:00AM-12:PM and R1[b]=12:00PM-04:00PM) within 8hrs setting at hour per time period.



Best Regards,

Rodel

Rodel,

I will see this warning only looking to the specific resource histogram. In the projects with hundreds resources assigned it is impossible to check the histograms of all resources.

I still don’t understand why the float become larger for overallocated resource.

I would expect that the package will warn that the levelling is impossible without adding additional resources to resource pool because the quantity of resources assigned to the single activity exceeds available quantity. I think that it is logical.



Actually I don’t approve assigning hours without assigning quantities. In this case it is not possible to assign two resource units with 50% workload if the quantity is not specified.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir,

P6 actually warned that resource is overloaded. (see below) You’re correct that the cause of 13.33hr/d is due to duration change. The behaviour of P6 is depends on the settings. The user can control Primavera’s behaviour on settings available.





On this exercise Duration type is set to Fixed Duration & Unit meaning Unit/Time is variable but if the setting is Fixed Duration and Unit/Time or Fixed Unit/Time then the unit will automatically change and become variable.



Best Regards,

Rodel

Dear Rodel,

please explain why

1) P6 does not warn about resource overload when resource is assigned 13h/day and calculated resource-constrained schedule?

2) the float is larger when resource requirements are higher?

I am intrigued by these results and want to play with P6 myself. I suspect that 13 hours/day may appear automatically if to shorten activity duration from 5 to 3 without reassigning resources, isn’t it? Very strange setting.



Spider Project would warn that you need additional units of resource R2 and will refuse to level the project.



Please explain.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Mimoune,



Actually, right now, I’m near your country.



Anyway, I supposed the intention is to do "resource levelling" so as to get the minimum duration possible.



This is considering that you will be using resource calendars as well as activities calendars which are not necessarily the same or consistent.



And I guess Vladimir is offering a solution, why not try it Mimoune?



Hi Rafael,



I believe that you cannot prove it with just your presentation below and you did not elaborate with the parameters that you had used (or used by someone else).



Best regards

pfffff sorry Anoon to hear that, anyway what are you doing in Philippine anyway !



Just to prove that i am really open mind, i think i was wrong, actually P6, give correct values for resource leveling including total float, but there is a hick.



in the case of a simple schedule ( 4 activities) P6, give a solutions which is so far from the optimum solutions, that automatically a normal joe will conclude it is wrong. but in reality( mathematical meaning) it is a correct solution in the sens that it satisfy the conditions( both links and resource availability)but unfortunately it increase project duration.



best regards

Mimoune

Dear All,



Sorry if I cannot really answer well all your clarifications as I was just fired (anyway, no worries, I’m used to it).



As regards using exactly the same calendars for activities and resource, well I never said that, but I supposed there would be no problem with resource levelling if this is the case.



The problem I believed will occur (with resource levelling) is when using different or various calendars for activities and resources.



How can you make a coordinated resource levelling when using various calendars? For me, this is impossible, but I’m not sure of course (as my mind is just ordinary).



And I’m really curious about Vladimir’s and Rafael’s solution to this, which up to now, all I hear is something better than sales talk.



Best regards

HI Anoon



i hope you are kidding me, there is no conspiracy here, i have no affiliation with Rafael, but i do have an advantage, which is i am a junior, it means, i don’t have any strong idea about any method, i am just learning, I don’t care really if P6 is better or not comparing to others packages. but i do care to have a correct results.



yes, as A P3 user, i set many rules for priority of resource leveling, it depends, total float, early start, etc, sometimes i just fellow the intuition of the construction manager, he wants to put more resources on a particular task, after all he is the responsible not me.



having saying that, and from a guy who is aware, there is no exact solutions for the problems of resource leveling, but rather many approach to solve the problem and give a good solution to satisfy both resource availability and logic constraints. all those rules are for getting better solution, let’s say optimizing the solutions. but no matter what you have set as rules the result must be correct.





i expect from the software to give me a correct solution, perhaps far from optimum, but nevertheless correct (it satisfy the conditions), otherwise it is an issue and should be declared by the vendor.



and for testing the four activities schedule, no need to check another package, manual calculation, can spot, that there is something not ok.



best regards

Mimoune

Hi Anoon,

please clarify what may be changed with the schedule and floats if to select task or resource dependent and all activities and resources have the same calendars.

I did not try to say anything about Spider but of course all restrictions shall be taken into account during scheduling (levelling) process. No one restriction governs - all shall be satisfied.

I did not understand if you tried Rafael example or not?

Resource levelling does not require tailoring - it shall create the project schedule based on the same data and satisfying all resource limitations. Besides the shortest resource constrained schedule means better resource utilization.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Mimoune,



I suspect that you are the one who supplied Rafael with that sample?



"notice here, i did not change any default rule"



As you had mentioned, of course this will create some discrepancy as you are supposed to handle "resource levelling".



In my opinion, your settings and options are supposed to be tailored to handle resource levelling as well.



How can you level Resources if your activities were set to "Task Dependent"? I supposed your program will follow task dependencies and not resource dependencies.



Now, I guess Vladimir and Rafael is saying that Spider can handle both dependencies (Task and Resource), at the same time when levelling resources, but I’m not really sure if which one governs (or they did not tell us) when making adjustments in order to get the minimum duration possible?



Best regards

hi all



that’s far what I got from experimenting in Primavera p6.

as far as you put only activities with one resources and without links, P6 handle well, and it give you the right Total float, but if you start with only four activities, and assigning two resources and some links, it level correctly the activities (max usage not reached) but you will get inaccurate total float, sometimes even some negative one.



notice here, i did not change any default rule



i hope i am wrong in my calculations, but it is a a very serious matter, we call this bug, or even worst, defective by design.



best regards



Mimoune

Hi Vladimir,



To clarify the statement of Rafael that P6 displays wrong float(s) (whatever it is Free Float or Total float) after resource levelling - That is not true (at least from my own trials).



Hi Rafael,



You are not making real comparisons. I guess you are just finding faults, but please be fair. You need to put the two programs in exactly the same settings and options (if that is possible) and run the schedule or resource levelling, so that we shall know which one is a copy of what?



Oh by the way, I don’t know if P6 has the capability to show Resource Bars.



Best regards

Hi Anoon,

please clarify what is not true?

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Rafael,



Yes, I stand by my statement. For P6 (6.1), what you said is not true. For P3, from my trial, yes you are right.



Best regards

Hi Rafael,



Yes I can see it, but it seems that the logic is discontinuous (i.e. 2nd and third activity has no relationship). I guess the erroneous floats were caused by erroneous logics. Please try to connect them all with FS only or SS only and see the results.



As we are considering resource dependencies, logic must be established by the shared resource or resources, which means that settings shall be all focused on the shared resource or resources.



You can forget the logic that you had established for your activities.



This is what I’m trying to asked on Vladimir in previous or other threads:



What is most important, Activity logic or Resource Logic?



And he said both, but he is defining Activities or Tasks first (in terms of logic).



So in case of conflicts, which logic governs during resource levelling?



Best regards

Hi Rafael,



I don’t understand about strategies or how do you present your schedules. I’m just a scheduler (or just a follower for the good side - and it doesn’t include cheating).



Going back to float calculations or results after resource levelling, for now I would say that what you were saying about P6 is not true, but that’s understandable as you were just exagerating and not really trying it yourself (so I can forgive you with that). And please note, the version I used is 6.1 (not the latest one), and further note that the trial is just limited to 4 activities. So again, beyond that, I don’t know.



I just hope that someday you will really try it yourself and may we hear your expert and honest opinion about it (without the sales talk).



Best regards



p.s. Sorry, I suspect that the results of your sample or your sample was inflicted by not so logical - logic.

Hi Rafael,



As you know it, you can tweak or cheat with the program (GIGO). I supposed these algorithms don’t have the capabilities to lie.



Oh by the way, with the four (4) activities only the third and fourth activities moved when I run/level the schedule, the first and second remained in place and displayed no resource in the spreadsheet (but they were assigned as well).



Best regards

Hi Rafael,



I believe that the screenshot that you are showing now is from P6. However, I don’t know what settings you had used (or used by someone who had sent you the sample), for this example.



P6 has lots of options, so finding the right option alone can become difficult for the not so experienced (like ME).



I tried it again with four activities sharing the same (single) resource and run / level it.



It shows zero floats (Total, Free, Remaining) for the first two activities, and negative floats for the third and fourth activity (for the remaining float only, the rest all zeros).



And please note: When displaying resource usage spreadsheet, I for one believe that it is calculating accurately (at least with the settings that I had used for the 4 activities). Beyond that (or with more activities and options), I don’t know or not sure.



Best regards



p.s. well, I had the feeling as well that if there are some conflicts, P6 just ignore it (or will not react). I think it is much better if the Program will show some warning or hint/help like the one done by excel when it cannot read the formula. Again, I’m not sure of this, I’m just a civil engineer and not a computer expert.

Thanks Rodel,

I am glad that we have the same oppinion.

I understood that Rafael is disappointed by his Clients that require the use of the certain software that he does not like at all. It looks like the common practice in his country.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Thank you Vladimir for the links.



With kind regards,



Samer

Thanks Vladimir,

Certainly agree and I believe that’s the practice here in Australia. We respect each company’s capability.



With Kind Regards,

Rodel

Rodel,

I don’t mean you personally.

I wrote about general Client - Contractor relationships.

I think that the Client may require certain forms (formats) for the schedule submittals, what level of details shall the schedule include, but not what tools and methodologies to use for Contractor construction management.

Do you agree?



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Samer,

If you are interested in the methodologies that we use and promote look at the publications at http://www.spiderproject.ru/publ_e.php#eng and http://www.sdpmworld.com/

Soon I will add there new presentations that will be made for PMI Great Lakes Chapter, PMI COS Conference, and Risk Management conference in Singapore. So don’t forget to return.



If you want to learn the tool (I mean Spider Project) you can download free Demo from http://www.spiderproject.ru/demo_e.php



Demo is almost full functional (except some export/import capabilities) but has 40 activities per project restriction. It is not necessary to buy if you want just to learn the tool.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir,



Thank you for your clarification. My apology if my wordings are not clear. We don’t dictates; we follow what is required and were agreed by the top management.



With Kinds Regards,

Rodel

Dear Vladimir,



It is ok, I will end up buying the software in the future. This is what usually happens with all companies if you want to learn the tool.



I had to ask. I think that you might be talking about new methodologies and Project Management issues. This you can publish and sell with International Book Publishers. It becomes easiers and more accessible to everyone at reasonable prices.



With kind regards,



Samer

Rodel,

maybe I did not understand you correctly.



You wrote:

“Clients or stakeholders always looking for systems that compatible to their system as much as possible so the data exchange and communications will much easier.” (If we use different systems from each other how are we able to communicate?)



From this I understood that you advocates the right of the Client to dictate to Contractors what project management tools shall be used.



I tried to explain that it may lead to worse project management and may create huge problems to Contractor’s management teams, that the Client and the Contractor have different requirements to the schedule model, etc. I think that the Client may require certain formats for the data that are submitted but has no rights to dictate what tools the Contractor shall use to manage its resources. At least it is not smart.



I am sorry if it was not clear, English is not my native language.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir,



I have no objection on any management tools, impact we used those tools. We have integrated System that talk to each other. (like Prism, SAP, Estimating module, Risk Analysis module using Monte Carlo simulation and etc…)



Our company have own IT analyst/ developer/ software programmer dedicated to continues improvement of PMS, communications and maintaining the integrated system.



I’m not sure what you are trying to portray here.



Best Regards,

Rodel

I am sorry, Samer.

Most our clients speak Russian and the documents that are created are in Russian.

Besides most companies do not like to share their internal standards.

I will think what can be done and will write to you directly.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Dear Vladimir,



Can we buy/download the:



"internal Project Management Guidelines that describe project management processes and decision making routines, corporate databases (production norms, unit costs, material requirements per volume unit for different activity types, etc.), templates, resource, costs and material dictionaries, risk register, etc"



I would like to read the material if it is available.



With kind regards,



Samer

Rodel,

I do not discuss Spider Project in this thread.

I tried to discuss different approaches for schedule updates from the theoretical point of view.



Project Management System is a set of different tools that include internal Project Management Guidelines that describe project management processes and decision making routines, corporate databases (production norms, unit costs, material requirements per volume unit for different activity types, etc.), templates, resource, costs and material dictionaries, risk register, etc. They cannot be abstract because they depend on the tools that are used. For an example you will not be able to use the databases for resource productivities if the tool does not work with resource productivities and even does not have corresponding field.



Now let’s imagine that the Client requires to use different tool (not to export the information to the required tool that may be proper if the project is a part of the larger program, but to use).



The databases become useless (other tool does not support them), fragments that describe typical technologies can not be used for schedule development, performance reports shall be modified, risk simulation becomes impossible, management technologies that may be based on buffer management shall be changed, etc.

As the result the schedules will be drawn by the best painter in the company.



Welcome to the stone age and intuitive decisions!



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Vladimir,



Your qouted exactly what I post. "Project Management never relied on tools. It is used only as a guide or assistance to speed up the process."





As I always said, I have no comment in regards to SPIDER since I don’t have any idea what is it capable of. If the chances permit me, I will love it for sure.



What do you mean by this? "But destroying the contractor project management system is not in your interests at all."



Best Regards,

Rodel

Hi Rodel,

PM tools shall help with decision making.



If your tools cannot answer to what if questions then there are two options:

1)     The tools are poor,

2)     The tools are not properly used.



The tools do not decide for the people but can help to verify people’s decisions.



The tool is useful only if the project model was properly created and is able to simulate the real work. In this case the planner will get the answers on questions like what if I will add certain resources, what if I will change work time, what if the supply will be delayed, what if new risks will take place, what if we will work in different sequence, etc.

Decisions based on intuition and experience shall be verified by simulating their impacts on the project targets. If it cannot be done then you have not scheduling but communication tools and your schedules are just drawn to communicate your estimates.



You wrote “Project Management is not only resource management. Cost, Time, Quality is the 3 key for planning. The rest will follow like risk, safety, communication…etc…”



Exactly! The project model shall integrate all necessary information. And what do you suggest – to manage time and costs without managing resources? Cost and Time depend on resources, isn’t it? At least for the Contractor. And reserves that shall be included in the project schedule and budgets depend on the project risks. So the model shall include all of this if it is used for decision support.



It’so sad to hear that you never used the tools on which you can rely.



In any case your requirements, understanding and the usage of PM tools may differ from the requirements, understanding and the usage of your contractors. You don’t need the resource management but your contractors do need to manage their resources with the help of PM tools and they shall be able to use what they need for the proper management.



I understand your concern: "If we use different systems from each other how are we able to communicate?"



You may require certain formats of the contractor schedule reports (MSP xml, Primavera xer, Spider sprj, etc.) if you need to include the Contractor schedule in your portfolio. But destroying the contractor project management system is not in your interests at all.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Vladimir,



Thank you for your kind explanation and that’s exactly my point.



Here are my quotes ” In real world nothing is perfect; there is always a right tool to a right place.” – (same as what you said)



we are more concerned on communication and compatibility rather than talking to different language that leads to different ways. (We adopt what is required to have same language to understand each other)



“Clients or stakeholders always looking for systems that compatible to their system as much as possible so the data exchange and communications will much easier.” (If we use different systems from each other how are we able to communicate?)



Best Regards,

Rodel

Rodel,

I understood that this question "If you’re saying that the perfect tool is spider why the developer/ creator is not claiming that they have the perfect and best planning tool in the whole world?" is to me?



I will try to answer.



Spider Project creates the best resource constrained schedules, levels not only renewable resources but also materials and costs and calculates Resource Critical Path.

But you don’t use resource levelling.



Spider Project works with work quantities and has the internal tools for working with norms databases and fragment libraries.

But you prefer to use expert estimates of remaining durations.



Spider Project keeps project archives and shows trends of all project parameters.

But you don’t use this advanced management tool, for you it is enough to compare current schedule with the baseline.



Spider Project simulates risks and controls probabilities to meet project targets.

But you don’t require risk simulation capabilities.



Spider Project is very powerful and easily calculates the schedules that consist of many hundred thousands activities.

But your schedules are not large and you don’t need to level the whole portfolio of your projects.



The list is long and I will not be able to list everything that you don’t need in the forum post.



So Spider Project is not the best tool for you. It includes too many functions that you don’t plan to use.



There is not such thing as the best tool for everybody.

People shall understand their needs and select those tools that do what they need though they shall estimate not only current but also future needs.



You don’t need Land Rover to drive to the nearest shop. It would be overkill. Land Rover is not the best car for driving to supermarket.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Rafael,



My apology if your thinks I’m wrong. If that’s what you believe go for it. Be happy and wish you all the best of luck.



Best Regards,

Rodel

Hi Rafael,



I’m not taking it personally. I love to help and guide those people whose being blind, brainwash due to his belief. We in planning planet not only concerned on a tools we used. We are more concerned on sharing our knowledge, expertise and guide people on the right path. We don’t criticize something that we don’t know about.



We know how to accept fault and defeat. We are open minded and not self concentrate.



I’m not questioning your ability and I keep saying everyone has a right to voice out their opinion and we respect it. If you want to be respected you need to be open minded. In real world nothing is perfect; there is always a right tool to a right place.



We are more concerned on communication and compatibility rather than talking to different language that leads to different ways.



If you’re saying that the perfect tool is spider why the developer/ creator is not claiming that they have the perfect and best planning tool in the whole world?



As you said you haven’t tried P6 on your example, how can you prove that you are correct?



Don’t make conclusion for something that you haven’t prove yet.



Again if that’s your belief and opinion I respect that.



Thank you,

Rodel