Planner v designer
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Professional courtesy is born out of respect. Unfortunately too many of the design team these days do not engender respect, and therefore have not earned the right to expect professional courtesy.
I have lost track of the number of project architects I have taught various aspects of construction, which they knew nothing about. All they appear to be taught at college is the shape, colour and form, nothing about how to build it, or whether it can be built.
Experienced planners can often knock design teams into a cocked hat, whether at VE, brainstorming, workshops or whatever else you may want to call it.
Clive,
Two heads are better than one for anything, I dont dispute that co-operation between all parties is the key to building robust designs and programmes.
But if adding value through discussion/helping is designing, does that make me a project manager and a cleaner as well as a planner?
We dont aim to confine the role of the planner, but like stated earlier in the thread, is planner vs designer even comparable?
My OPINION is no.
Regards,
Oliver
Clive,
Key to successful teams are clarity in responsibilities. Brainstorming sessions can be very effective but it has its time and place. I cannot think about anything more disruptive than having some team members questioning the professionalism of other team members – having a planner thinking he should, and can, design a project better than a designer.
Surely, team members should try to contribute in more areas than their specific role, but extending professional courtesy is equally, if not more, important.
Regards,
Larry
Clive,
Is it the planners role to come up with concept designs in your given scenario? I would say no.
If a planner has experience in design, then maybe, but they would be working outside their remit. A planner has no requirement to make an input into concept, scheme or detailed design. (Apart from answering questions about anything cost/schedule related)
Obviously its a team game in the initial stages of design and a planner can throw ideas into the pot based upon experiences of passed projects, this however is not design.
Regards
Oliver
Hi Oilver,
You have rightly pointed out there is no objective it seems as it is similar to asking what is difference between Day and Night. Is Night Better Than day
Few days back I also came across a typical question, How can we know the number of activity in a P3 Layout ? After I replied back and asked the originator what is the value of knowing, I got the anaswer that all exercise dont have any value.
This type of exercise dampens our interest in positively participating in forum.
Regards,
Ashraf
All,
Is the difference between a planner and a designer a serious question?
Look on a job vacancy, on jobsite for instance. The job description for project planner/planning engineer is completely different than that of a mecahnical / electrical / civil/ HVAC designer.
Sure a designer can schedule his own work on smaller projects, but a planner/scheduler can never design.
The original question seems to have no objective, but achieves debate through the use of "vs"
"project manager vs tree surgeon"
"chiropodist vs used car salesman"
in short they work as a team !!!!
cheers
based on my experienced, designers are mostly concerned on strength, appearance, & cost of an structure/project while planners goal is to deliver it on time and within budget, that is to formulate,implement,& monitor a methodology that will bring maximum profit. i believe that designers have the capability to make a schedule that will produce the desired results. But when it comes to big & complex projects (eg. high rise,multilevel powerplants & factories), planning/scheduling becomes complicated that the job must be assigned to another team, those who have the right experienced and tools that are capable enough to formulate,implement,& monitor schedule so as to produced the desired results. i will therefore generalize that designers are the most appropriate persons to formulate the plan in simple projects, but when things get complicated, its time to call the planners.
cheers!
using common sense, horse sense, and even non-sense, the one whos responsible for the method statement is the one who knows exactly what the job is! otherwise it can never be done, so whether or not you are going to hire a Planner or a Designer, just make sure he knows exactly what hes doing.
who should be responsbile for method statement, is the planner, designer, project manager or the subcontractors site manager/engineering?
i think it is the planners job to communicate and report and finally input into planning process.
for example, the designer may prefer one work method, but the subcontractor prefer another. it is the planners responsibility to communicate and report and finally input into planning process (of course, it may need the designers and/or project managers approval)
Dear zhang:
Thank you for your input
i would like to give a definition of construction planning as an information-driven, multi-disciplinary process, performed in a series of interactive steps, to analysis, formulating and working out what has to be done, how, by when, by whom, with what and in where, in order to carrying out of a construction project.
Planner is not one person. planner could be and should a team (it is the same that one designer can not do all the design tasks. designer means a team). planner should be responsible for the planning process and put all the inputs together. these inputs include method statement, site investigation, site logistics, space planning and site layout etc. the planner can not do all these thing. but he should be responsilbe for the planning process.
Clive,
I dont understand why "time management" is just drawing bar chart without consideing the fundamentals.
"prepare schedule" is not just draw bar chart. Without considering construction method, resource loading ... how to draw the bar chart, how to define construction sequence,how to define duration... but it does not mean the planner is responsible for preparing the construction method...
Planner or say scheduler draw the chart based on (or partly )inputs from others who prepare the construction method...and feed back to/discuss with them whether the method is time effective or can it meet the deadline...
there is so many trades in a project, can a planner prepare construction methods for piling, foundation , DW, structre steel, arch. finishes, HVAC, heavy equipment installation, ,HV/LV installation/testing, process utility...
or, each trade have its own planner, and they draw their own chart.
Dear Clive:
thank you for your sugessitons. I totoally agree with you that planning is different with scheduling.
in my knowledge construction planning is an information-driven, multi-disciplinary process, performed in a series of interactive steps, to analysis, formulating and working out what has to be done, how, by when, by whom, with what and in where, in order to carrying out of a construction project. scheudling is one of reports of planning process.
construction planning process is a multi-disciplinary process. not just planners. it is a team work.
due to the increase demands of planning and the increase complex of building. planning become more difficult to manage. therefore, i would like to:
1, List the formal tasks or considerations or decisions which the planners need to do during construciton planning (e.g, select construction method, planning site logistics, do site waste management plans, etc)----could you give some comments on what are the tasks?
2, List all the information requirement for doing those tasks (for example, what information are reqired for selection of construction method. for exmaple, we may need the drawings, the stutory and the subcontractors’ input etc.)
3, Develop a programme of planning which can do planning of plannning. I thinks this programme of planning can help the planing manager to manage the planning process and manage the whole planning team such as what tasks should be done, and what information are requred and where can get this information and when can get those information and what is the deadline to delivery planning deliverables (e..g when need to publish the work method statement?)
could you please give your comments? (e.g. do you think this research can help you? all the comments are welcome)
Hi Baiyi Li,
1, who should do site waste management plans.
2, who should do site layout which is important for the site logistics.
1) The construction team - particularly the construction manager and the planner.
2) The site logistics layout will be a live document as logistics will always change during the course of the project. The basis should be set out by the construction team as a whole, with major inputs from the PM, Construction Manager, Package or Site Managers and of course the planner. Detail will evolve as the Works proceed.
Hello,
I have read some of your post. It seems that there misunderstanding of the term "planning".
I think here in PP "planning" means time management.
So the planner is focus on time. the main job is to prepare schedule, tracking progress...
Dear Gary:
Thank you for your comments.
However, Anumba et al (2000) stated that planning construction activities is increasingly becoming a complex task requiring substantial collaborative practices, with ad-hoc teams created to complete specific projects.
For example, the Site Waste Management Plans will be compulsory due 2007, in order to minimise construction waste.
Fischer et al (2003) and Anumba et al (1997) stated that the layout of the construction site and the organisation of spatial requirements are a critical factor to the success of completion of a construction project, and hence should be taken into account during the planning phase.
my questions are:1, who should do site waste management plans; 2, who should do site layout which is important for the site logistics. and in mine knowledge, the site layout or site place planning should be dynamic and updated within 1 or 2 days.
Chris,
Maybe I have to re-phrase it, Designers usually have the luxury of choice (depending on what comes in their minds), while Planners dont.
Hi Anoon,
I think you’re probably right, but a lot would depend on other factors, as Bijaya pointed out. I suppose at its most simplistic, the designer designs the product, while the planner plans the project that will make that product a reality.
Chris Oggham
for me, Designers usually dont care about the time element, while for the Planner / Scheduler, it is the basic!
A lot of variables can dictate on what one does:
Size of team
Expereince of team members
Nature of the work in the proejct
etc etc
Anyway, planner puts the detailed construction method in a format that can calculate Critical path and floats. Designer can help make work break down, activities involved etc.