Well that can be interesting and very challenging both in finding the information but the fun part often comes in working out what to do with it - it isnt quite so straightforward as it appears in the books or the SCL Protocol.
You can email me if you would like to know more.
Member for
19 years 1 month
Member for19 years2 months
Submitted by Sue Chambers on Wed, 2006-11-22 10:48
Ray - thankyou. You have just re-iterated that which I have been trying to say all along - but I keep being moderated. If we start discriminating by gender, then we have to start discriminating by other criteria. It all ends in a farce.
Worked with maybe 10 female planners in 30 years. One was my boss and 10 years younger than me.
They were all probably better than the fellas - no doubt due to the fact that they were treated by all as second class and therefore had to perform better to be treated as the same.
Start a lady planners section. You guys face different problems to us fellas - as well as the ususal stuff that we all face - and need a forum to raise those issues.
Should be more of you. On site here there are several lady surveyors, engineers etc but no planners.
As for the chauvinists out there, live with it, the world has changed since Queen Victoria.
1. Ray works in SVT - Very little sun shine there at this time of year.
2. Have to agree with Ray. One of two things happen when a woman hits site. She becomes "one of the boys" or, as Ray says, the working environment does change.
2. WRT the slanderous comment on "Women gossiping". I know some men, planners included, that would give fishwives a good run for their money. And before the PC sector jumps on my back its a term of speech where I come from and not at all derogatory to women who work in the fish processing industry.
3. "Softer Issues" not very well covered in the NET/Reference books etc. As a GENERAL rule, most of the hard questions pitched in PP are easily researched in Help Tutorials, reference books, googled etc. One of PP purposes is to be a forum for interphasing with the Planning sector.
4. It never ceases to amaze me how some sectors of this PP community have hidden agendas, be it politics, gender bias or taking personal issue. Read the question and comments. Should it not be of interest or it offends, pass it over. No need to open Pandoras box.
Member for
21 years 5 months
Member for21 years5 months
Submitted by Chris Oggham on Fri, 2006-11-17 03:51
I think you may have misinterpreted the purpose of this thread. If you go back to Gwens original post, you will see that she is asking whether it would be a good idea to have a thread which dealt with how women are perceived in planning and the unique problems they face because of that perception.
I disagree with you when you say that this is not related to the intent of the Planning Planet forum. The forum is here to gather and disseminate information, not just on the technical aspects of planning, but the problems faced by the people who work as planners as well. You pointed out yourself that planning is a male dominated occupation, all the more reason to find out the difficulties women face simply because they are women.
In fact you give a graphic demonstration of one of the problems women face with your unfounded assertion that the only thing Gwen is interested is gossiping which you say is "(Females most common hobby or passion)". You then "request you not to try of discriminating the PP forum on gender basis", can I suggest that you do the same.
Chris Oggham
Member for
22 years 9 months
Member for22 years9 months
Submitted by David Waddle on Fri, 2006-11-17 03:37
I wondered what you consider to be appropriatefor a PP topic. This is after all an open forum for planners around the planet, is it not?
In the UK construction industry, there is a major campaign to attract more females to the industry and to give them a voice so it would appear that somebody believes it is appropriate; and the fact that Gwen raised the subject in the first place confirms this.
David
Member for
18 years 11 months
Member for19 years
Submitted by Umerfarook Deshmukh on Fri, 2006-11-17 01:32
This is really intresting thread came across to me, which is not at all related with the intent of PP forum!!!!!
Anyway Gwen as u have started this inappropriate topic, this gives an indication that you are more intrested in gossipping ( Females most common hobby or passion)rather than discussing planning problems which can be solved effeciently and effectively with the help of all PP memebers and which is dominate by male.
I request you not to try of discriminating the PP forum on gender basis.For your kind information in my planning career of 7 years I have worked with 3 Lady planners and one of them was heading my department and I have never sensed any difficulty working with them and vice versa.
Cheers
Member for
20 years 8 months
Member for20 years8 months
Submitted by Fiona Maughan on Thu, 2006-11-16 13:36
I regard a lady planner in the office as an esential tool, in any industry there are those men who are bad news but are like a lamb in a womans presence. and with diversity and inclusion a hot topic it helps the balance, all we need now is for one of the guys to come out of the closet and someone else to get a good suntan
Member for
22 years 9 months
Member for22 years9 months
Submitted by David Waddle on Sun, 2006-10-22 11:55
I have to say that I have worked with 3 female planners in my entire career (20+ years) and my experience has been that they are very good with the software but they lack the project experience to be good planners.
However, the important point is that this is a feature of the construction industry today (at least in the UK) and it has nothing to do with being male or female. It is simply that training is poor and so many people with only 2 or 3 years site experience are suddenly becoming senior planners.
As someone who has headed a planning department, I am more than happy to employ female planners so long as they have real experience.
After 344 emails asking for some discussion on the topic of how to keep the peace and harmony inside the discussion forum, we have setup a survey question relating to moderation of the sites content; mainly the discussion forum.
The idea of a survey is first-rate and if people state their preference, it will help us to come to good consensus of the way forward.
We hope / think that everyone realises that the moderators have a pretty thankless job - they graciously volunteer their time and knowledge. Hopefully the survey should solve this problem and give us all some guidance as to the way forward etc....
And the first problem is not being listened too because you are female or worse being spoken over or to your boobs/legs/erse (depending on dominant speakers preference).
Would suggest that if this is the case male or female that you follow up with an e mail to reaffirm your case.
"I told you so last week/month/year" trying not to sound sarcastic or scowling is so difficult and unprofessional!
(But gives great satisfaction and a good laugh out of earshot)
And on a timely note "Senior" as in Senior Planner is now illegal as least in the UK Sector today.
Management (in the UK) please take note.
Member for
21 years 5 months
Member for21 years5 months
Submitted by Chris Oggham on Mon, 2006-10-02 03:55
While I agree with you that it would be a great pity if female members felt they needed a separate forum to give their views, I dont think that was what Gwen was actually suggesting. As I understood it from her original post, Gwen suggested a thread to discuss the particular problems faced by women in the planning sector.
Hopefully a constructive discussion would result in solutions and increased knowledge which could only be of benefit to those of us with management responsibilities. I completely agree with you when you say that people should be judged on their ability and not their sex, and if it is used correctly, a thread such as the one suggested by Gwen, would help highlight preconceptions and misconceptions with regard to women in planning.
Sorry Gwen if Im stealing your thunder, but I think that this could be extremely useful to all of us.
Chris Oggham
Member for
20 years 10 months
Member for20 years10 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sun, 2006-10-01 20:46
Lady planners - can’t say I’ve come across one yet, but I have no doubt they are as competent as any male. Ladies in other sectors of the industry I have come across are as good as their male counterparts. They probably work harder as they believe they need to prove themselves above and beyond the norm in this male dominated industry. That I feel is somewhat sad as male or female, your ability and not your sex should be what you are judged on. If you’re male and useless, you’re useless, similarly for females.
I was at one meeting when a male colleague said, "you see that attractive blonde over there", (not being sexist but she was blonde and very attractive) "she’s really good, she was counsel for the other party and knew her stuff". And my colleague was a very experienced expert witness so the compliment wasn’t given lightly.
Therefore my thoughts are that it would be a great pity if the female members felt they needed a seperate forum to give their views. They’re thoughts and contributions are as welcome and as valid as anyone elses, so ladies get posting.
I didnt think this thread was still going as I stopped being notified - no doubt because my posts were pulled on it. I dont believe I wrote anything rude either.
Now Gwennie when you get done with that plan I need some help Im trying to embroider a histogram and I cant get the stitching even....
If Gwen wants to start a ladies only thread, why not? It could prove really useful, and not just to the ladies. As far as I can see the only people who would think it was a "rubbish idea" are people, unsure of their own abilities, who feel threatened by it, (Mr Anon Ymous possibly?)
Regarding the moderators, I agree with James, they do seem to have been very active recently, not just replies being deleted, but apparently innocuous threads being closed to further posts. While its necessary for sites like PP to be moderated, I dont believe that it has to be heavy-handed or dictatorial. Perhaps the Moderators themselves should be moderated and given some sort of guidance on how to carry out the task fairly and effectively.
Chris Oggham
Member for
19 years 5 months
Member for19 years5 months
Submitted by James Griffiths on Wed, 2006-09-13 04:04
Yes, the moderators seem to be removing an awful lot of replies - a large proportion of them being mine. Dunno why - mine arent rude. Apart from the gender segregation, it seems that they wish to suppress the voice of the other minority social groups who may wish to develop their own forum within PP. Because of this, my foretelling of PP becoming accused of "..isms" is now manifest.
We noticed this too. You will see that some threads are missing. I got one of the techies to check the files, and the thread level jumps from 8 straight to 14. It seems some responses may have been deleted.
Perhaps they were rude and were removed by moderators??
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Andrew
Yes I have patience and I love to read, the hardest part is getting taken on having no experience in this field.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Sue,
You obviously have alot of patience - hour upon hour upon hour of reading documents, drawings, etc, etc is the main part of the job.
Yes it can be extremely interesting, challenging, fun (well at least occasionally!!!!) and satisfying.
It can also be monotonous, dissapointing, frustrating and sometimes just one long hard slog to mention a few negatives.
On balance though, I enjoy it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Member for
22 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Well that can be interesting and very challenging both in finding the information but the fun part often comes in working out what to do with it - it isnt quite so straightforward as it appears in the books or the SCL Protocol.
You can email me if you would like to know more.
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
It is not so much delay analysis, but the forensic analysis itself, all the investigating to find out what really happened
Member for
22 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Sue,
What is it about forensic delay analysis that attracts you?
David
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Oscar
You have my dream job Forensics. How do you get started in this field?
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Oscar - did you have network trouble or was there a point to your 4 replies?
James.
Member for
20 yearsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
james
and your point is
women are the same as men
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Ray - thankyou. You have just re-iterated that which I have been trying to say all along - but I keep being moderated. If we start discriminating by gender, then we have to start discriminating by other criteria. It all ends in a farce.
James.
Member for
19 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Prior to us leaping into the PC world of a womans only section in the forum:
Are we not looking for equality of pay, terms and
conditions?
Why are we doing it, do women need special treatment?
If so it would imply that the above statment is not true.
Think, how would the female portion of the PP greet a man only section!
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Ok Gwen and all Lady Planners: the forum is now yours. Please start raising the issues.
James.
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Gwen, Lady Planners and All
Worked with maybe 10 female planners in 30 years. One was my boss and 10 years younger than me.
They were all probably better than the fellas - no doubt due to the fact that they were treated by all as second class and therefore had to perform better to be treated as the same.
Start a lady planners section. You guys face different problems to us fellas - as well as the ususal stuff that we all face - and need a forum to raise those issues.
Should be more of you. On site here there are several lady surveyors, engineers etc but no planners.
As for the chauvinists out there, live with it, the world has changed since Queen Victoria.
Nige
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Quick answer to a few points.
1. Ray works in SVT - Very little sun shine there at this time of year.
2. Have to agree with Ray. One of two things happen when a woman hits site. She becomes "one of the boys" or, as Ray says, the working environment does change.
2. WRT the slanderous comment on "Women gossiping". I know some men, planners included, that would give fishwives a good run for their money. And before the PC sector jumps on my back its a term of speech where I come from and not at all derogatory to women who work in the fish processing industry.
3. "Softer Issues" not very well covered in the NET/Reference books etc. As a GENERAL rule, most of the hard questions pitched in PP are easily researched in Help Tutorials, reference books, googled etc. One of PP purposes is to be a forum for interphasing with the Planning sector.
4. It never ceases to amaze me how some sectors of this PP community have hidden agendas, be it politics, gender bias or taking personal issue. Read the question and comments. Should it not be of interest or it offends, pass it over. No need to open Pandoras box.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Umerfarook,
I think you may have misinterpreted the purpose of this thread. If you go back to Gwens original post, you will see that she is asking whether it would be a good idea to have a thread which dealt with how women are perceived in planning and the unique problems they face because of that perception.
I disagree with you when you say that this is not related to the intent of the Planning Planet forum. The forum is here to gather and disseminate information, not just on the technical aspects of planning, but the problems faced by the people who work as planners as well. You pointed out yourself that planning is a male dominated occupation, all the more reason to find out the difficulties women face simply because they are women.
In fact you give a graphic demonstration of one of the problems women face with your unfounded assertion that the only thing Gwen is interested is gossiping which you say is "(Females most common hobby or passion)". You then "request you not to try of discriminating the PP forum on gender basis", can I suggest that you do the same.
Chris Oggham
Member for
22 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Umerfarook,
I wondered what you consider to be appropriatefor a PP topic. This is after all an open forum for planners around the planet, is it not?
In the UK construction industry, there is a major campaign to attract more females to the industry and to give them a voice so it would appear that somebody believes it is appropriate; and the fact that Gwen raised the subject in the first place confirms this.
David
Member for
18 years 11 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
This is really intresting thread came across to me, which is not at all related with the intent of PP forum!!!!!
Anyway Gwen as u have started this inappropriate topic, this gives an indication that you are more intrested in gossipping ( Females most common hobby or passion)rather than discussing planning problems which can be solved effeciently and effectively with the help of all PP memebers and which is dominate by male.
I request you not to try of discriminating the PP forum on gender basis.For your kind information in my planning career of 7 years I have worked with 3 Lady planners and one of them was heading my department and I have never sensed any difficulty working with them and vice versa.
Cheers
Member for
20 years 8 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Ray
Are you kidding ???? I hope so.....
Member for
19 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
I regard a lady planner in the office as an esential tool, in any industry there are those men who are bad news but are like a lamb in a womans presence. and with diversity and inclusion a hot topic it helps the balance, all we need now is for one of the guys to come out of the closet and someone else to get a good suntan
Member for
22 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Gwen,
I have to say that I have worked with 3 female planners in my entire career (20+ years) and my experience has been that they are very good with the software but they lack the project experience to be good planners.
However, the important point is that this is a feature of the construction industry today (at least in the UK) and it has nothing to do with being male or female. It is simply that training is poor and so many people with only 2 or 3 years site experience are suddenly becoming senior planners.
As someone who has headed a planning department, I am more than happy to employ female planners so long as they have real experience.
David
Member for
16 years 9 monthsLADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi there,
Moderation of Forum
After 344 emails asking for some discussion on the topic of how to keep the peace and harmony inside the discussion forum, we have setup a survey question relating to moderation of the sites content; mainly the discussion forum.
The idea of a survey is first-rate and if people state their preference, it will help us to come to good consensus of the way forward.
We hope / think that everyone realises that the moderators have a pretty thankless job - they graciously volunteer their time and knowledge. Hopefully the survey should solve this problem and give us all some guidance as to the way forward etc....
The survey can be fund here... http://www.planningplanet.com/vote/Vote_Question_Options.asp?vid=900
Regards...
Member for
21 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi
I always thought that me being ignored and spoken over was to do with me being a planner!
Regards
John
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Well Thank you Gents.
And the first problem is not being listened too because you are female or worse being spoken over or to your boobs/legs/erse (depending on dominant speakers preference).
Would suggest that if this is the case male or female that you follow up with an e mail to reaffirm your case.
"I told you so last week/month/year" trying not to sound sarcastic or scowling is so difficult and unprofessional!
(But gives great satisfaction and a good laugh out of earshot)
And on a timely note "Senior" as in Senior Planner is now illegal as least in the UK Sector today.
Management (in the UK) please take note.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Andrew,
While I agree with you that it would be a great pity if female members felt they needed a separate forum to give their views, I dont think that was what Gwen was actually suggesting. As I understood it from her original post, Gwen suggested a thread to discuss the particular problems faced by women in the planning sector.
Hopefully a constructive discussion would result in solutions and increased knowledge which could only be of benefit to those of us with management responsibilities. I completely agree with you when you say that people should be judged on their ability and not their sex, and if it is used correctly, a thread such as the one suggested by Gwen, would help highlight preconceptions and misconceptions with regard to women in planning.
Sorry Gwen if Im stealing your thunder, but I think that this could be extremely useful to all of us.
Chris Oggham
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Lady planners - can’t say I’ve come across one yet, but I have no doubt they are as competent as any male. Ladies in other sectors of the industry I have come across are as good as their male counterparts. They probably work harder as they believe they need to prove themselves above and beyond the norm in this male dominated industry. That I feel is somewhat sad as male or female, your ability and not your sex should be what you are judged on. If you’re male and useless, you’re useless, similarly for females.
I was at one meeting when a male colleague said, "you see that attractive blonde over there", (not being sexist but she was blonde and very attractive) "she’s really good, she was counsel for the other party and knew her stuff". And my colleague was a very experienced expert witness so the compliment wasn’t given lightly.
Therefore my thoughts are that it would be a great pity if the female members felt they needed a seperate forum to give their views. They’re thoughts and contributions are as welcome and as valid as anyone elses, so ladies get posting.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsLADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
We have LPs at PP... wheres this heading.
Send us a picture of your embroidered histos, well put them on the site !!
PP Admin.
Member for
20 years 8 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi all,
I didnt think this thread was still going as I stopped being notified - no doubt because my posts were pulled on it. I dont believe I wrote anything rude either.
Now Gwennie when you get done with that plan I need some help Im trying to embroider a histogram and I cant get the stitching even....
Sue - nice to see another LP here
Cheers
Fiona
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
This makes good reading whilst us ladies are all knitting plans in the T room.
Tip to all lady planners whose personal space is being encroached.And we all have at least one of them in the office.
Keep a draffies 1 metre ruler in hand. Handy for swotting those pesky flies-mozzies amongst other things.
See! You lads could learn a thing or two.
Now Knit one. Press Undo. Purl. Slip a stitch. Insert line. Oops Dropped the plan.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi Folks,
If Gwen wants to start a ladies only thread, why not? It could prove really useful, and not just to the ladies. As far as I can see the only people who would think it was a "rubbish idea" are people, unsure of their own abilities, who feel threatened by it, (Mr Anon Ymous possibly?)
Regarding the moderators, I agree with James, they do seem to have been very active recently, not just replies being deleted, but apparently innocuous threads being closed to further posts. While its necessary for sites like PP to be moderated, I dont believe that it has to be heavy-handed or dictatorial. Perhaps the Moderators themselves should be moderated and given some sort of guidance on how to carry out the task fairly and effectively.
Chris Oggham
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi,
Yes, the moderators seem to be removing an awful lot of replies - a large proportion of them being mine. Dunno why - mine arent rude. Apart from the gender segregation, it seems that they wish to suppress the voice of the other minority social groups who may wish to develop their own forum within PP. Because of this, my foretelling of PP becoming accused of "..isms" is now manifest.
James.
Member for
21 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Hi Moderator
My reply was "removed" - it was the first reply on this most interesting subject.
My reply was not rude, hopefully it was objective as were the the replies that followed.
Regards
John
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
I receive two e-mails for each reply that is posted instead of just one
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Clive,
We noticed this too. You will see that some threads are missing. I got one of the techies to check the files, and the thread level jumps from 8 straight to 14. It seems some responses may have been deleted.
Perhaps they were rude and were removed by moderators??
We are checking / concerned.
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
OK Ladies to the Batcave and network to my private e mail address.
Lads, I ll be monitoring you for reciprocal sites!!
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Dear Gwen / Sue,
If you ladies need any help in keeping these boys under control, or getting your ladies group off the ground let us know!!
Regards PP Admin
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
As instigator of this thread, I too, would be very interested in which Recruitment Agency Anon represents.
In the event its my own Agent then I would be obliged if you would return the 250 GBP you cream off my salary every day.
Re deleted postings, I have been in the air most of the time. Clive would you fill me in privately.
Girls, anything deemed too sensitive for the lads, email me privately.
Cheers
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
Rubbish idea, we do have any any sexist behaviour on Planning Planet an we dont need you to start...back to the dra*ing board...
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: LADY PLANNERS - FOR YOUR EYES ONLY
I think that is a great idea gwen