Consolidated Plan Calander

Alex,

thank you for your hints. I see the situation different way but with the same results.



Project Planners that are comfortable with some software are not interested in switching to the new tools. People that may be interested are business owners or top managers who depend on business results and want to improve project and company performance. Those who choose the software and those who use the software very frequently are different people. And for those who are responsible for the software selection choosing the popular program is safer solution.

I am sure that in most organizations switching from P3 to P3e did not mean that all P3 planners were fired and new P3e planners were hired. I am sure that people were teached and that you agree that experienced planner will learn new planning program very fast. But even at this forum you may see the resistance to change.

I know that changing the software tool is a hard decision that can be justified only by business needs. If you are satisfied with P3e functionality then why to do anything? But if your organization and your projects will need functionality that is not provided by existing software tools then you will be glad to pay for better solutions.

That is why we have more and more customers around the world. The culture of project management is increasing and it leads to smarter requirements to PM software.



As for shift simulation I am sure that the solution that you suggested is not practical. It is just impossible to reconsider the schedule (change the number and planned durations of schedule activities) and to reassign resources at the end of each shift. It will take too much time and effort.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Yes, Tahir,

I also think that we finished discussing this topic.



But we discussed with Alex something different. Not what software is the best but how the software is chosen. And what is the best for one organization may be poor for another.



Cheers,

Vladimir

Dear All

I think the discussion is diverting from origion and start on a new topic. I suggets that some one should start this topic seprately, "best planning software in the market".

Regards

tahir

James,



Thats is a real piece of shut down planning, but thats the way it require in some of the industry like oil and gas industry. Because shutdown the production line mean loss money.... lots of money. I am not suprise that these sort of shut down plan will have "REAL" risk analysis and REAL detail planning during the 9 months of detail planning phase with a few contigency plan on their sleeve. I once come across a 4 weeks shutdown of a steel production plant of averaging 300man/hr for the entire duration. If you maths is good then it mean 28*24*300 = 200,000 hrs. In order to do such scale a lots of planning and process control is require to achieve the result.



I guess we just have to learn from each other of how "Mean" to achieve the final outcome "End".



And as for the P3 functionality, I guess we will need to wait for a product that take over the Primavera market share, I know that Spider Project can do a lots of these function, my concern is market share and planning resource who can utilise the software.



I have a client comes to me once and said, "Yes the product is good it will do all the things I wanted, Can I get 20 experience planner to drive the beast?? The quick answer is NO and his quick answer is also NO. he will not use the product until there is enough trained planner can drive that beast. BTW it was P3e



So if spider project can offer fee training to 20,000 planners worldwide, then I guess it will become more widely use and hopefully take the P3 market share. oppsss, did I give you some hints.



Regards



Alex

Hi Tahir,



Your shutdown of SASREF - for 6 days, must have been an excellent planning achievement - especially as you had to plan 30,000 manhours to be performed in such a short time. How well did it work?



Our company might have to plan 30,000 hours over two years - and they still moan that, at 4000 activities, the plan is too big and cannot be managed properly. Mind you, they don’t bother with even constructing the plan until about month before the contract award. It was nice to see that you started planning 9 months before the shutdown - and I shall use your example of forward-planning to help reinforce to my bosses that planning is not just a pretty-picture to be added-on at the last minute.



Cheers.



James. :-)

Dear James

It is really highly appreciated if you send me the detail defination of planning. So i will learn also how to work in planning department.

Regards

Tahir

Alex,

I think that most P3 users just don’t simulate shift works.

I can site your sentence about MSP: Who knows about tomorrow, but at this moment P3 still have a lots of catch up to do.

Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Gents



My answer to all these questions of using Calander in shift situation effectively is



"Thats is how we (Planner) manage our plan in P3 to carryout the planning function in a project" Since 80% of us using P3 to planning our works. Can I assume that it means that majority of us can utilise the calander effectively to manage shift works in P3 (May be a wrong assumptions) ^^.



I don’t want to go into too much detail, but certianly I managed a lots of project that require shift works in P3.



yes there may be other software can do that better, I yet to be convinced.



Alex

Dear Tahir,

starting high rise construction I don’t know in advance which shift will do which wall.

Even in shutdown projects with the small duration it is not clear in advance what quantities will be done in which shift. You wrote that you create activities wuth 12 hours duration. What if there will be two hours delay for some reason? You will need to change your set of activities instead just schedule recalculating. It is too complicated and time consuming because small changes are inevitable and schedule adjustments shall be fast.

I understood what you meant by shift usage in P3. It is manual adjustment of activities and assignments that are hard to do and even harder to adjust.

Thank you and Best Regards,

Vladimir

Tahir - now THAT is what you call PLANNING.



James.

Dear Validi

These shift colanders always useful and to be used in shutdown or maintenance jobs.

Reply of your question one by one.

1- It is always known before which shift start the job because you have to make teams for each shifts and allocate the manpower and tool & plant to them. If you dont know which shift you have to do which work it is impossible for a shut down to makes team for shifts.

2- With out knowing the size of package how you develop a plan and allocate the resource. It is not a EPC project, it is a shutdown you have all detail drawing and the equipment history in front of you to develop detail activities.

3- It is very illogical that the small packages you need to reconsider again which you can distribute in very small activities of 1~ to 12 hrs. Because during the shutdown the shifts are always 12 hrs to ease the activity should be completed in one shift.



Yes it is possible that some activities may be due to some reasons cannot be completed in its allocated shift but these are not more than 2% to 5 %. Which is normal because plan can not be implanted 100%



For your information we finished a shut down of SASREF(Saudi Armco shell refinery) in Year 2005 for the SRU sulfur recovery unit in 6 days with 30000 mnhrs approx (225 manpower for each shift). This shut down planning was started exact 9 month before the start of shutdown.

I hope this will clear the shift usage in P3.

Regards

Tahir

Alex,

if you mean that each small package shall be performed by different shift then:

- it is not clear which shift will start execution,

- it is not clear what is the size of the first package

- you will need to reconsider these small packages each time when you enter actual information

- if resources are limited then there is a possibility that an activity divided into smaller packages will be imterrupted.



A lot of manual work and adjustments, isn’t it?

Vladimir



To simulate a true shift resource leveling, P3 cannot do it.



however, with a few twist I manage to plan a 4 week shut down project with 3 shift a day, and the schedule is updated end of each shift with works forcast for next shift. to do that what you need to do is breakdown works into small packages and manage them individually as well as linking the activity globally.



P3e is easier since it had a shift calenda.



James



Good luck with your plan, it sound logical - you may become the next Bill Gates

Alex

Dear Tahir and Alex,

now, when this discussion is not restricted by any PM software, I want to explain the problem of shift work simulation.

When you plan the work that can be done in any shift you don’t know in advance who will do it. It may start in one shoft and finish in another, or it can be done in one shift (not known in advance). In any case you don’t know exact start and finish dates before scheduling.

So the software shall assign resources basing on their availability at the moment when activity starts. If the start moment belongs to the first shift calendar work period then first shift resources will be assigned, if this moment belongs to the work time of the second shift then the second shift resources will be assigned. When first shift work day will be over then second shift will proceed with activity execution, etc until planned amount of work will be finished.

I don’t know how to simulate this situation in P3e. If you know please explain.

I am also interested in approaches to shift work simulation used in other PM packages. In particular I don’t know about Powerproject.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Dear Vali

Dont be personnel, i am not going to discuss in detail the shift usage in P3 or P3e. I just inform that it can be possible and surely. So dont feel unsecure from P3 planner. And next i will reply on the right forum.

Regards

Tahir

There’s only one thing for it - I’m gonna do millions of experiments, write them all down, figure-out the exact sequence of steps to produce whatever result you want, ensure that I write all the possible interpretations of DURATION, then finally realise that I’ll never have to do it for real, forget all about it for two years, get a new job and then be asked to produce a schedule that has ten different types of working-day. After that, I’ll write a book about scheduling-software calendars, make a trillion quid, retire - and find that nobody understands a word I’ve written.



Are those little piggies that I see flying about?



James :-)

Tahir and Alex,

using P3 (and P3e) you are not able to plan the work that starts in one shift and finishes in another. Especially when you don’t know what part of the work, if any, will be done by which shift (it cannot be known before scheduling).

This is not P3 forum and if you want to discuss shift simulation in P3 then let’s do it in another forum - P3 or planning and scheduling.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

James,



Firstly, thanks for your input and this is a MSP forum I dont want to be sarcastic about MSP but (You know that is coming) MSP do have a few limitation that we all know by its software nature. BTW I know there are also strenght in MSP over the traditional product.



Thats why when you read the voting result in this forum, you will find around 80% of users using Primavera product for planning compare to only 10% using MSP.



My point is IT is catching up in the Project Management Field and same as MSP (Today) is just not to the level as the Traditional Construction Planning Tool yet. Who know about tomorrow, but this moment MSP still have a lots of catch up to do.



I try to contribute as much as you do. ^&^



Alex

Vladimir

You are right that P3 do not have shift within one calenda.

However, you do can plan shift work in P3 as Tahir mentioned.

Alex

Alexandre

Quote

"you will not consolidate 2 projects using 2 different calendars, you will not have people working 8 h/d and other 12 or 16, ..."

I am comments on this paragraph because in my mind that a project will need to have mutiple calendar. I dont think anywrong doing with my comments, but may be a bit confronting to your original mail.



Cool down...^&^



Alex

Mr. Validi

I am a maintenance planner and use to work different calander for different sifts. I think that you may be not use before the P3 for shift. P3 simulate the shifts not a big deal need to be little smart in the use of calanders.

Regards

Tahir

Alex,

Before writing replies the way you do, I suggest that you read the posts properly.

I am waiting for your apologies.

Alexandre

Gents,



MSP is actually very flexible and is usually capable of doing most of the stuff that people ask of it - if you know how. Where a lot of problems occur, is in the minds of the individual programmer and the person who needs to read the programme.



Take for instance the calendar - and the convention that most people will read the data column called DURATION. The duration, in DAYS, is only based on what you, the programmer, have initially defined as 1 working day, in terms of how many working hours and the start/finish times. When you re-define a working day, for when you have different resources working different shift-patterns etc., the system still references the basic Project Calendar’s definition, and displays the activity’s duration relative to that. The individual resource calendar has to be aligned in order to ensure the correct quantity of hours. Once you have done this, and understand what the software is doing, then you can input the data and interpret the data correctly. I agree that MSP seems to do it in a somewhat convoluted way - but as I have also never done it in P3e, I can’t comment whether P3e is easier or subject to also applying a specific understanding of what it is doing and how it is doing it. However, I read an earlier thread about the summary durations not adding-up - and a member replied with the answer, saying that the calendars had to be set-up correctly and interpreted in a specific way. This aroused my curiosity about whether MSP required the same - and YES, you had to do exactly the same thing in MSP also.



Most of our problems stem from the fact that we have never had to seriously use certain software functions, and if we find that it requires more than one press of a button - and we need to amend our interpretation and thinking process, then we immediately assume that the software is a pile of poo. Ok, nobody LIKES having to think differently and there are always better ways of doing something. Where I’m concerned, the calendars are one of the things that I really do need to get-to-grips with.



Whenever I have stopped and thought as to why MSP has derived a particular result, then it usually proves to be perfectly correct. Once I know how it derives the result, then I can get it to do a suprising amount of stuff. I liken it to driving two different cars, with each having their turn-indicator switch (on a stalk) on opposite sides of the steering-wheel. On one car, you’ll move it down to turn right, on the other side you’ll move it up. If you’re used to moving it in one direction only, altering your mind-set can be extremely difficult. However, they both achieve the same objective equally well.



Lecture over. Now get back to work.



James.

Alex,

P3 does not simulate shifts.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Alexandre



Either your mind is simple or your project is simple, hands up number of planer have projects do have a different calendar for a different type of resource.



Yes you will have people working 8hr 1 shift, and 10 hrs 2

shift and 24 hrs / 7 days (equipment) ... the list just go on.....



But you are quit right that MSP is only for a simple planning job and dont expect the software to do the impossible, they cannot handle major project. My suggestion is change to P3(They are the leader in Project Planning)



Good luck everyone.



Alex

Calendars in MSP are not so difficult to use! Presuming that you only need ONE calendar per project, you will not consolidate 2 projects using 2 different calendars, you will not have people working 8 h/d and other 12 or 16, ...

Keep in mind that MSP is a simple, basic piece of software, that makes serious scheduling much more difficult to achieve than with PS8, PSnext, PP8 or P3.

I am giving training of scheduling software as a living, and I know what I am talking about.

MS motto has been for years "MSP prime competitor is MS Excel"!

Alexandre

Hi Andrew,



Just a word of friendly advice. MSP calendars are [Deleted]. I’ve been trying to figure them out for years and still have great diffculty in understanding quite how they work and how I get the results that I need/expect. If you’re not familiar with how to set-up the calendar system, including the default start-times and working-hours per-day, project start-times, plus the options of starting each task according to the "Current Date" or "Project Start ", then I strongly recommend that you do a few experiments on a toy project. Don’t worry about doing logic links on your experiments or doing lots of tasks - just three or four will do, using two different calendar set-ups; just get to understand how the project calendar and task calendars interact with one-another. Remember, if you are going to resource your activities, you’ll need to set-up the various resources calendars also, otherwise you’ll get all sorts of funny activity durations and quantities of hours.



I keep saying that I’m going to write-down all of this stuff - but sheer laziness usually takes-over. Therefore, off the top of my head, I cannot advise in the most succinct manner.



Is there anybody else out there who could help, otherwise poor Andrew will probably start ripping-out his hair - very soon?



Cheers.



James.

Hi,

the only way is to apply the 2nd calendar on a task basis (Project, Task Information, Advanced); I guess the file size will become close to explosion

Alexandre