Becoming a Planner?

Agreed with Gary.



The Snr Project Manager I am working for started off as a welder. He told me that he was very lucky that he was guided along his career development. I personally think that opportunity is one of the important factor in order to develop into a planner. Without the work opportunities or the people that inspire / provide guidance, I would not grow into a planner.

Sigredo,



I have been back to posting #60.



OK, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying that you would give a labourer a chance as a planner if he showed potential, (by climbing the ladder) say as a ganger as Clive says in post 59. I agree with you.



Are you therefore saying that you wouldn’t give just a humble labourer a chance, just because they are mixing cement, or carrying bricks? If so, I might need to take issue with you on this. That humble brick carrying labourer probably knows more about how many bricks get laid in an hour than you or I would ever know. So yes, I would at least consider giving him a job as a junior planner programming brickwork on a large project with many bricks to lay.



Saying that, I do take your point – there are some labourers who would never have the education to become a planner. It is a sad fact that many labourers cannot read and write, so in that instance, I couldn’t offer him a job, even as a data entry planner.



It was good to revisit post 60, for it gave me the chance to re-read Clive’s post number 59. I am glad to see yet another planner who started life as a labourer! The next time I am in Hong Kong, I am going to seek Clive out and buy him a drink or two, or seven. We could swap old site stories with each other.



Cheers.



Gary

Gary,



Thanks for the reply.



That is precisely my stand. Please go back to reply # 60



Cheers,



Se

Hi Sigfredo,



Yes, we would accept labourers in the PEO. Of course we would. They would probably need to join as an associate member, the criteria of which is “For those planners/schedulers with less than 5 years experience in planning/scheduling, or for those whose work means they occasionally undertake a planning/scheduling function as part of their job.” As long as they were doing some sort of planning, why would we refuse them? Some (and I would of course agree not all) would have something to offer and we might have much to offer them.



Alternatively, they could join as a student member – just like I would have done when I was young, except there was no such organisation back then. However, we haven’t had any applications from labourers, but we all have to start somewhere.



Indeed we may well have members who used to be labourers. Many people do some casual work doing labouring who then go onto other and better things. I say good luck to them. Take Gwen’s children for example - she says they did some labouring before moving on in their chosen profession - its really not that uncommon. In the PEO we wouldn’t refuse membership just because somebody used to be a labourer!



Regarding your question about combining P3 3.1 and P3 ec together in the survey, in hindsight, we made a mistake. It would have been better if we had kept them separate.



Cheers.



Gary

Hi Daya,



That is precisely my point in reply no. 60 of this thread when you said "But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives."



Even the answer of Gary when he said laborers can be planners. it does not stop with just being laborer to become a planner. There is more to it.



This is also the reason why I insisted on defining the job description of laborer to stop the obvious misunderstandings in this thread.



Cheers,



Se

Hi Charlie,



I know you like to keep secrets, but I am going to share one with you. Don’t pass it on to too many people though! You will need to get to the end of this posting before you find out what it is though. I don’t mind sharing with you, because it is about time I “came out”.



Yes, I am a planner and no, nobody got to my profile. I have been a planner for 31 years – I have tried to give it up, but (Oh the shame of it) I just cannot – Betty Ford tried to help me, but I just keep regressing!



Yes, I am a group board director of Mace and yes, I guess that makes me one of the big guys. I am responsible for all of our pre-construction work (planning, logistics, project strategy, temporary works, design management etc). Yes, it’s true; a mere planner can make it quite a long way. However, before anybody suggests to the contrary, I still do hands on planning! It is a fault I know – I should delegate more, but shucks, I just love planning!



And yes, I am the Chairman of the PEO. You see Charlie; I am a die hard planner. I know that good planning really can make a difference. I regularly can be seen drawing programmes and you know what – I sometimes use PM software for this and even excel! (Oh dear, yet another admission).



And yes, before other PP’ers jump on my back, I also have to admit I have also done some expert witness work. From postings in other threads, I know that the real planners out there will consider this the ultimate sin, but what the heck – I can admit it. I have broad shoulders. Just take me outside and give me a damn good thrashing!



I say these things not to boast, but to make a point. Many planners I meet ask me about my career, why didn’t I go into project management, how did I as a planner make it to where I am today etc etc. The simple answer is that I like planning and I stuck with it. As most planners do, I worked very hard. I have worked on some huge projects and I did what I am good at – making very complicated things simple (whey hey – no 40,000 activity programmes for me!). These days I am very lucky – I get to work on some of the biggest, most exciting construction projects all over the world. Hard working? Yes. Very long hours? Yes. An understanding wife? Yes. Lucky? Without a doubt. Destined to keel over from a heart attack? Probably. All of the above.



You see, something in my genes makes me quite good at joining things together with arrows. I like to draw complicated programmes to work out in detail how things should be done, then I hide that from everybody and then draw a much simpler diagram to help communicate things simply. Do you know what? People, especially clients, seem to like that!! I learnt a long time ago that people hate P3, Artemis, Powerproject, Suretrack, Openplan and all the other ways of making something complicated even more complicated. They simply want to understand. (OK, I am ranting on now, so I will stop).



OK Charlie, it’s time for the secret. Keep it quiet though……



It’s very hard for me to admit it, but …… I have a lump in my throat as I am typing this.....



I started work at 16 years old. I didn’t pass many school examinations. I started work on site as.....wait for it..... A LABOURER! There, I have said it. No more hiding the truth. You have outed me at last. . I feel much better now!



So Charlie, there it is. A labourer can be a planner.



Please don’t ever put down labourers again. You do yourself an injustice whenever you do that.



Gary France

Hi Gwen,



Do not worry, the feeling is mutual.



Gary,



Kindly answer the question of Charleston. Maybe this is one way to stop some of the melodramatic arguments thrown in this thread. Do PEO accept laborers as planners?



Maybe this will stop also the one liner answer such as "i agree with you 100%" answers. ha ha ha.



Please include also the answer to my question long time ago why PEO combined the users for P3 3.1 and P3 ec in their survey.



Let us get real guys.



Cheers,



Se

Hello there Mr Gary France,



Are you the chairman of PEO, one of the big guys of MACE, etc. or someone got inside your profile???



As you are aware, PEO got stringent standard in accepting members. In your previous post you did specify the qualities of accepting members.



MACE is a well know consulting company engage in project management.



Are you accepting labourers as planners. Please be serious.

Hello to someone,



I really dont think that you got field experience.



After graduation, i taught in university. After three years, I decided to join construction project. My first job is running a gang of labourer doing manual mix of concrete and placing concrete. I was designated the labor pusher. And i did push my laborers to the limit of their physical endurance. My labourers dont think, I think for them including the process, the timings and they follow my command. Eventually my boss got confidence in my ability to move people around and got things done that I lead a gang of trademens, carpenters, steelmen (rebar fixers) masons, etc.



The essence of my leadership was to ensure no one was idle and that all my people are dong things right the first time. And, that needs planning, planning on what to do, what to do next, etc.



For me, labourers or trademens are resources,just like me (a planner or whatever was my position before) to attain project goals. Each person got their own place in construction and each got to do there job.



Whatever exposition or brainstorming regarding labourer as planner is alien to me. I was not brought up this way.



I believe you also got your own story to tell regarding labourer as planner. You got your right to tell it here but straight away my message is "I dont agree".



Cheers,



charlie

Hello Daya,



I dont know what your trying to reach out with the real situation of labourers with master degree.



And then, we have planners that comes from the rank of labourers.



I think what really happens is an extension of colonialism where your colonial master who is a labourer became the chargehand and eventually the planner. In my sojourn in this world, this happen only in some decaying empire. This is also the fault of some nation who really did not fight for their freedom. You just read history and the cycle keep repeating. And there are a lot of them.



However this is not the proper forum to expound your grievances of former colonial master. You are lost.



The bottom line is that labourers have their place in construction. We need them to run the construction project. They are part of the construction project team. But to make the labourers the planner is a joke.



I did read about labourers that rise up from their ranks but mostly this are fantasy, fictions, love story, example the of book is "THE FOUNTAINHEAD by Ann Ryan".



Of course there are real people that start from labourer and rise to become millionaire, influential men, powerful men, etc., but this is not what we are talking about.



Whatever happen to your labourer friends with master degree, i can only wish them success in whatever they are doing now.



Cheers,



Charlie

Dear All,



Please do not misunderstood me...and I never under estimate Labourers and truly I respect them since I get also some ideas from them. I am just straight forward and honest to myself, maybe I just follow the common standard as ISO do.



My deep apologies to the labourers ,,but I cheers to the REAL PLANNERS....



Pedrito

Gary,

Why thank you kind sir! I feel compelled to join you and state that I too did not graduate. With a robust CV, never being out of work and being able to pick and choose where and for whom I work next, I must be doing somthing right.



Saying that I frog marched my own kids to Uni and fell off my perch when both of them graduated BSc Hons. However their attitude was that the hard work was over, Employers employ me! Not!

After a spell hands on labouring which did them the world of good for getting involved with the nuts and bolts of their choosen professions, exposed to multi nationals, integrated team spirit, getting the best out of sloths and grouchers they are, at least, pointed in the right direction. No, not plannng!

Worked with Clive Spakman and John Hart ealier this year. Your name came up then.



Slange

Hi Sigfredo



"Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha"



How can you give applause to Charlie for answering a simple question such as; How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner? With "SECRET" And the thought that his company employed a labourer as a planner made him "Vomit"?



I thought to myself "this guy is not interested in a discussion if he can end it with "SECRET"



It did however provoke many of you to comment, some sarcastically, some silly, some off the point, some intelligently constructively.



OK! I do agree that the definition of a labourer may differ between each of us.

You say, " What may be a labourer for you may already be a field superintendent for some".

Yes I agree with that statement.



I was asked what a labourer on my site actually does.

The answer would have been "probably the same as on your site".



You also ask me to firstly define the job description of labourer before I react.

Well! To me a labourer is some one whose job is mainly of a physically nature, but he still has a brain in his head and he may or may not have had an education. Most of them would not wish to sit at a desk or computer trying to work out how someone else should carry out a task, but some may and possibly be better at it then you, because you have a degree.



I have however had labourers on some of my previous sites who have had masters degrees and worked as labourers because their degrees were not recognised in this country (UK) and also their command of the English Language was very poor. I do not know if either of them became PPP planners on not.

But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives.



Regards

Daya

Gwen,



Totally agree. My list of people to work alongside probably would include somebody who buys blow up sheep and anchors. Not sure about the beard though.



Gary

Oh dear Charlie,



How can you say “I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class.”



As many people have said, anybody can plan. We all do it a lot without realising it.



In my years of meeting and working with probably hundreds of planners, those with practical hands on experience generally make better planners than those with degrees. Yes I know I shouldn’t generalise, but that is my experience. Somebody working as an operative on site (even a labourer!) knows far more about how to do the job they are experienced in than a graduate and they are therefore in a much better position to be able to plan that type of work than somebody who has only studied it. They might not have the ability to set out their planning work well due to their level of general education as well as a graduate might, but this should not exclude them from the chance of trying to become a planner.



I have to declare here that personally, I am not a graduate, and so your class is obviously well above mine and therefore I might not be qualified to make such a judgment.



Humbly yours,



Gary France

One thing great about this thread and Planning Plant, I know who I would prefer to work alongside and who, if their names were mentioned I would be either be jacking up my day rate or running like Hell!

Hi Daya,



One more thing. Stop assuming that I have no respect for these people. You don’t know how I work. We are just arguing on this thread and nothing else. If my arguments sent you a wrong signal, then don’t put words into my mouth. That’s the reason why planningplanet have a PM i.e. to clarify things.



I should have PM this but decided not to.



Se

Hi Se,



I think Planning Planet is infiltrated by aliens (Labourers disguise as Planersr). I know the way they post there thread, the way they make impersonating of real people.



The biggest losers are the one converted to aliens belief that labourers can do planning in EPC Project in Oil/Gas Industry or Higly built-up High Rise Mixed Residential/Office Buildings, in Metro Rail Porjects or heavy civil construction projects like dams construction, etc.



But like all aliens movies, the real heros (real planners/planning engineers) will survive the struggle because there are essential human character of dignity. And the aliens (labourers) will just go there their place in construction projects, mixing cement, excavating with picks and shovels, etc.



For the aliens go on converting other members but i find in Se a partner in our struggle. Of course there are a lot of them in PP but at the moment they just want to watch in the sideline until it is clear that the real planners will win the day and join the fray. Dont worry Se we have a lot of friends, i know i can count on Bill or Vladimir. Philip is really a disappointment.



Cheers,



Charlie

Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha



Hi Daya,



It matters what the laborer does because most of the arguments being raised that a laborer can be a planner or somebody who has the experience can be a planner are all subjective. It’s hard to react to a certain argument if we don’t agree on the very basic job description of laborer. For me it’s quite insulting that a laborer(my definition of laborer) can take my place as planner. Please define first the job description of laborer before you react, s’il vous plait.



What may be a laborer for you may already be a field superintendent for some.



This thread has become so subjective so please let’s clarifiy things first.



Charleston, you should be on the lookout. The one mixing concrete on your jobsite might one day replace you. Easily, that could be at the minimum 100 candidates. Give us a break.



Cheers,



Se

Totally agree.

Hi Guys,



You guys can argue all tou want, but planning is a mindset, and anybody can do it. It is simply a mstter of explaining your thoughts on paper, so a labourer can do it, if he understands the methodology and the after effects, and the paper trail

Regardless of education you cant beat bums on seat site expereince, on the tools or as the planner. If you can motivate, delegate, organise, communicate, have a can do attitude and a sense of humour all in a multi national project (we have 46 different nationalities on Snohvit)that goes a long way in any planning job.

You can have a string of degrees and black trades expereince behind you, be a P3 purist but if you cant quickly scope out your part of the job, think on your feet, take instruction (and a Hell of a lot of well qualified people cannot)or a brief you are a loss.

I disagree the Planner is the brains of the project. I am sure the Project Director, Manager and Discipline Leads would be laughing like drains. I would compare the Planner as the Catalyst, capable of promoting change, adding value sometimes not.

Charleston,



Apologies, will go out and do the decent thing, will go out and graduate as a civil engineer. Havn’t got your extremely high levels of Civil qualifications. Civil being the operative word.



Sorry dont even come from a trades background. Am just an old site labourer, whom had a bit of luck along the way, and met some people that showed me how to do a bit of planning. Does this count for qualification?



What exactly is doing the right thing? You never clarified?

Perhaps you assisted or coached "the labourers" in a useful and proactive way. Brought your experience & high levels of qualifications to bear and trained them up to your level of "Professionalism". Perhaps you recognised their talents & decided to pay for them to get "Propper Qualifications"?



I know you maintained your dignity & of course the dignity of all planners, by doing the "Right Thing", but if you colud elaborate please????????



Respect,



Darrell

Daya,



SECRET.



Cheers

Dear Charlie

How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner?

DS

My friends,



The idea of a Becoming a Planner in PP becomes convoluted.



I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class. I really vomitted when i known that the company hired labourers as Primavera Planner. The company keep it a secret but eventually I suspected something wrong and i had done what was only proper to maintain the dignity of planning engineer.



Everybody plan: labourer, masons, husbands and wives, anybody in the construction, around the world, etc. But just because somebody made a plan that someone will BECOME A PLANNER, in the real sense of what we try to propagate in PP.



Oh common guys (includng gals). Be real. Are you aware how it is to work with this kind of planner. It was hell. If you don’t know what hell is then try to experience working with a labourer as Primavera Planning Engineer in some EPC project in the Oil and Gas Industry.



Cheers and let PP know your experience.



Charlie

Dear Sigfredo



What does it matter what the labour does!



The point is the this labourer or other specialist may have a lot of useful knowledge which you have no respect for.



But to debate the point. Let us consider a labourer ganger of a team of micro-tunnellers constructing 1000m length of underground pipeline.



If you have never experienced the process of micro-tunnelling you would not know how to plan it.



But you could talk to him and glean information to put a programme.



Regards

Daya

Pedrito,



I agree with you 100%. Could you find me a job there in the Philippines? tsk tsk tsk.



Kidding aside.



Hi Daya,



Could you describe what a laborer does in your field? I’m not asking for the definition of a laborer who may be qualified as a planner. Maybe it’s better that we agree on certain definitions first. I guess you already read my definition in one of my post including a laborer who may be qualified as a planner.





Se

Dear Pedrito Salamat

Why are you so disturbed by the suggestion that a labourer can become a planner?

It depends on what you think a Planner is. Is he one that knows to use some planning software? Or is he one that understands the sequence logic and durations for the resourses he has to hand? Is he one that understand the legal implications involved in trying to get a project of the ground?

Now, you seem to have adequate experience in the petro-chemical industry and also understand the gist of various contracts, but would you be able to plan something totally unknown to you. And if not would you be less of a planner?



You could only plan, if you understand the process of this new project. You could talk to people that know the details to find out.



This person may be a labourer, who has the intermite detail about how to do it because he has hands on experience. He has planned out how best to do the job. He has worked what tools and plant he requites to do the job efficiently. He knows through the time it would take to do the job. He knows if he is able to do the job himself or if he needs more people to help him. He knows the promlems that he may encounter and how to get over it. He knows a lot more about the process then you do.



I agree that he will have to learn about how communicate his programme or plan to others and he will need to present it in a format that others have accepted as the norm.



So don’t run down the labourers of this world. It is not the job title that matters but the clear logical thinking.

Regards

Daya

Hi Pedrito,



I understand where you are coming from and I agree with much of what you say. However, the point Clive was making is that we should not underestimate the knowledge and experience of the people who do the work, or their ability to plan their own part of it so that they can do it efficiently. If we use their knowledge and experience, we can do our job better.



When you worked as a Project Engineer, you gained a lot of information from these people, by watching and talking to them, during your involvement with the various phases of the projects you worked on. You then used this information and the knowledge you gained to help you do your job better.



I think that all Clive is really saying is that we should use all the resources available to us to do our jobs as well as we can. After all, we wouldn’t leave our computers switched off and produce all the plans and schedules by hand, would we.



Chris Oggham

Dear All,



I feel that topics is getting deeper on how becoming a Planner. And I beg to disagree that labourer could hardly become a Planner and that’s really a reality.



Before I became a Planner I once work as Project Engineer for almost 9 years where I did lot of actual exposures in the site dealing all types of work discipline, starting from excavation up to the Commissioning where I have seen the start to end. While during my college days I used to study the theory of Planning - CPM method in its conventional approach. Until I have learn to use the computer particularly the Planning softwares starting from the Basic of Artemis using the prompt command until I have learn the Windows approach in most of the current planning softwares (Open Plan, Primavera, Timeline, MS Projects, Suretrak). From all these experiences I can say that independently I can able to develop the Master Overall Work Schedule in different types of Contract whether EPC, LSPB, FEED, up to the Short Form Contracts.



Do you think labourer can able to develop independently this task even we can say that he has done lot of actual exposures without knowing what Design is, Construction , Quality Control, Procurement, Technical Data, Precommissioning, Commissioning & Start up.



Come on....we need just the reality... It is true that we need some inputs from the Discipline specialist to surely organize the Plan, but the mind, ideas, brains of the construction comes from the Planner.



So do you feel still that Labourer can be a successful Planner. Big companies will surely not hire this,,,,credential wise.

Hi Clive



I am 100% with you. To give an example, I am a university graduate in engineering with 20 years experience in waterworks construction and 5 years in operation and maintenance in the same waterworks. I am PMP (recently) and attended training in project planning, sceduling and cost control. I believe I will make a very successful PM or a planner. But what counts at the end is the real hands on experience. We have to listen to people who really do the job. they know more than any other’



By the way I am hunting for a job as PM or a planner. any suggestions?



Regards to all

Hi Clive,



I’m with Daya on this one; you’re spot on.



Chris Oggham

Ride On Clive

I agree with all of your comments 100%

Daya

Bonjour, Monsieur Clive,



So, if someone works 1 year as laborer then he can be assigned as planner on the next year hmmmm???



I understand your point that everybody plans 100% agree on that but we’re talking of the position of planner. That’s why I qualified my position that to become a planner at least a laborer should have reached a certain position in the organization such as field superintendent or construction manager.



S’il vous plait, don’t assume that I did not go through this kind of job, I had 10 years of field work before I became a Planner. I will not be qualified if I did not have that experience.



Clearly, we have a different view on what should be the qualification of a planner.



A votre sante,



Se

Laborer as a planner? Give me a break. Are we talking about a laborer who brings cement to a bagger mixer or someone who mixes concrete? Are we talking of a real planner or just someone who inputs data?



If a laborer goes up the ladder and become let’s say as field suprintendent or construction manager, then he deserves to become a planner.



Sometimes I feel there are some people in this site instead of uplifting this noble job which is, by the way their bread and butter, they tend to emasculate their own positions.



Cheers,



Se

Dear All,



Clive is right that if labourers to be a planner has to educate the company for they will be the future losers or the company will fall and unprofitable.



The Planner is the "Brain" of the Construction and the focal point. Without any proper plan all work will have no direction. Planners must have the actual site/ office experience and secondly has the knowledge in any planning softwares (whatever) since concepts are the same. However, planning has the theory that planners must be fully adopted (ie. the Critical Path) and how it is generated (forward pass & backward pass). Planner has to learned also the process of work levelling or the proper WBS, then this has to be resource and level as well. Meanwhile, Planners must have also the capability to know the activity sequence from Conceptual, Definitive Design, Procurement , Construction , Precomm. & Commissioning. Without having all these knowledge it is impossible for labourers nor technical staff to develop the Master Work Schedule or the Baseline. Or if so, develop by in-experience Planner for certain that will have no any start nor ending.



Hope this will clarify between Planner, Labourer or just common Tecnical man.



Cheers to all competent Planners

I can sense discourage in your statement but belive me there are real companies in this planet that are looking for experience people to work. Unfortunatelly in the real world shit happens and is not just in construction also in the corporate world, and politics as a classic example look at the FEMA appointee during the crisis in New Orleans with the Catrina huracane Bush appointee could not develop a plan to help the community .



Do not be discourage by bad corporate desicions keep preparing yourself for an opportunity and be ready with all the skills that are require by the position, do not stay in one place always be on the look for better place...

Hi men,



Dont be to proud in becomming a planner.



this is hard for me to say but this is true.



In one company I worked, the management hired a labourer to do primavera planning. This is true.



Primavera planning degenerate just like what happen in autocad drafstman. In autocad drafting, anyone can be drafstman as long as the person knows how to punch the keyboard hard to the point of destroying the keyboard.



It will only be a matter of time that Primavera planning will be done by accounting graduate, carpenters, masons, out of school youth.



BECOMMING A PLANNER, PRIMAVERA PLANNER IS ??????



A gloomy outlook.



Charlie

Dear Alvaro Fernando Talavera

You should have no problem, as you would have a vast experience hands on. You will know the correct sequence and durations for the resourses available at hand

You will have to learn however, how to communicate your plan to the rest of the team in the most efficient way. Bar Charts seems to be the universally accepted form. There are many Planning Software Packages. You may need to ask you company which one they use then learn how to use it properly. Get some training on it.

One thing you will have to do is limit the amount of detail you may have been used to, but encompass it within your activities you chose to present your plan of work.

Good Luck

Daya

Hello guys....



I have work for 17 years as a pipe supervisor for Brown and Root in different types of proyects from petrochemical to offshore, perhaps I am burn out and want to to move to a field that could be new to me, as "schedule Planner"... So my question is what would be the requirements for this tipe of position right now I am attending University of Houston for a BS in Proyect management



Thanks in advance for the information....

Hi Guys,

The point is I would employ Darrell ODea, but he will spend a few years learning, like the rest of his working life, but he will be a happy man at the end of time, because he has done something useful

Philip



I think you are being unreasonable



Darrell expressed a valid opinion



I agree with him



20 years experience (often the same year 20 times) 3 degrees in BS something a couple of MScs and a load of assingments makes not a planner



1 year of solid education under an experienced planner however goes a long way to achieving the goal, with or without a degree and i really dont care what Americans claim to call education when you major in needlwork and minor in structures and get a degree WOT ENGINEER ARE YOU



Look at some of the un-informed opinions that are posted (and I do not consider your opinions are uninformed) so thats why im suprised at your comments.



Think you are out of order Philip



Oscar

Hi,

it is intresting subject, From the post keep on reply, its very difficult to make somebody to understand and Its show how diffcult to be a planner and how many want to be planner.

Philip,



Am not sure if it is me you are directing comments at.

My apologies if any offence has been caused, and that is meant sincerly.



I have arguements and opinions like all, but that is all.

Am just participating in some "healthy" discussion and debate. I hold no sway over the moderators, ask "them" directly yourself.



Also, could you quote me in anything that you may have found offensive? And let me know why? Perhaps I could re-explain my view or opinion.



Perhaps I am not as qualified as you to speak as a planner, that I will freely accept. But if you wish me to decist from participating in this forum, speak to the moderators, perhaps they will concurr.



Again, my apologies if any offence has been taken.



ps. I still believe that it shouldn’t take very long to become a planner. Whats the quote, "80% of the results, are a result of 20% of the effort"...



Best wishes,



Darrell (Not Daniel)

Hi,



This message is specifically directed at Daniel ODea.



I don’t know you, you are within the cintext of the greeting, and you have a serious lack of understanding the subject of planning. I have intervened on behalf of the planners on this site, as I have read your derogatory messages and you seen to have the moderators in your pocket. What I am saying is that you could not plan an ice-making machine in the Antartica. You have an attitude that is a ticket to dislike, and reflects all the negative views of humanity, never mind planners



Good luck in all your mis-adventures



Philip

To expand on my last point... I’m paid no less as a Planning Analyst, than I was as a Planning Engineer... it would seem Oscar has hit the nail on the head... What people really want is the thought processes, the logical thinking, challenging of assumptions etc etc.



Go figure...



:o)

Well i agree with Darell



Go for it mate if you want to be a planner be a planner



Brunnel had never built a tunnel but he did it, a couple of other things he did with no experience also, as nobody had experience of what he was doing. Advancements come with failure.



Was Wren an Architect Engineer or Carpenter nobody would remove the props fromn the dome so he did it himself



What about Paxton heard him described as an architect but actually I think he was a smart gardener but he pushed the envelope with his crystal palace



If you have obtained a higher qualification you can think or at least remember and spew out what you have remembered.



Planners must be able to think logically above all else. They must be able to communicate what their thoughts are, they must be able to listen.



Those of us who believe to do this or that requires formal qualifications or experience are deceiving themselves. Yes its usefull but not essential whats essential is to ask why and seek that answer. I agree with Darell 3 months and you can plan.



Go for it, link up with a good teacher serve your time and start planning, understand the process, think listen and learn.

There is also a potential distinction between a Planning Engineer and a Planning Analyst.

In my previous Post on an IT contract, I was happy to call myself a Planning engineer (Having Built and rolled out systems and networks in my previous career).

However, my current contract is within the Nuclear/Powergen sector where I have little experience. Here my qualitative input in the Design Decision making process is purely based around the Practicalities and logical restrictions of whether we are sufficiently resourced, have sufficient time, or have leeway with a given contract to take one course of action over another. I’m not able to voice an opinion on whether I believe one course of action is *better* than another.

It is this qualitative aspect of the job that suffers when you work outside of your field, the rest (communication skills, planning facilitation, schedule interpretation and analysis, EV analysis and financial performance calcs and reports etc etc) should be applicable regardless of the field. These SHOULD be sufficient should you have a strong enough Project management team.

This is the role that I would term as a Planning Analyst.

Hi to all,



This thread makes me aware that there are a lot of different types of planners. While most of us got experience in construction, it is high time for us to be considerate with planners from other fields.



Only an idea.



Cheers