Democracy vs Totalitaranism

Give a try for one month see what will happen? They already enough to take care them self...only thing i’m afraid is abusing on religon and political...that want very dangerous.

Hello PPers,



Earlier in this thread the PP Admin team (i.e. not moderators) asked a couple of questions with respect to what goes on in the forum. The following issues have been raised...



If the moderators were not on the case, what should we do to stop people being rude and abusive etc? Would the whole system degenerate? i.e. some good discussion and a percentage of rude back-chat? Are we saying that if no-one removed the odd rude message, would these rude messages would not be posted in the first instance? Or is it OK to have abuse and undue rudeness etc? Or would an un-moderated society be acceptable and productive?



How should this / could this work?



If we have no rules, what would happen?

If we have rules (which we do) surely we should also have a means of making sure people abide by these rules?



Your thoughts on this would be valued.



Best Regards. Happy Planning.

Now Iowa sounds like a great place



skip the fishing drink the beers



No worries mate



Is this a single slab fishing trip



Oscar

In the Midwest, where I am, we say

"Give a man a fish, and he’ll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he’ll sit in the boat and drink beer."

Quote from Philip:

"...when it comes to fishing, you need experts, and never believe you know it all."



Philip, even children can fish successfuly. ;-)



And as for knowing it all, the quality of your numerous posts belies your shyness and modesty!!







Stuart



www.rosmartin.com

Moderator,



If you are looking for assistance in moderation, I think you will not have to look very far. Some on this posting, are suggesting or nominating themselves, which is a healthy thing of course.



Personally I think that, to date the forum(s) have been pretty well moderated & tolerated, but that is me. Others of course will not concurr.



We have a vast cross section of opinion and views.



And on fishing, it is easy and fast to learn to fish.

I learnt most of what I know about fishing in a day.

From making a fishing rod, putting together a line, and actually catching a fish. The object being, that you catch a fish, kill it, get & clean it, cook it and eat it.



Was never really into fly fishing, but a couple of friends of mine learnt to tie a fly in a day, and handle a fly rod the following day & were catching trout by the third day.

They must be "the three day experts".........



Am not percieved as a fast learner or anything, in fact in school I excelled at very little, and was held back for a year, because my work was viewed as being poor.



All the best,



Darrell

The forum guidelines don’t see unreasonable to me. Am I missing something? Which guideline is causing a problem with discussing planning and scheduling?



Stacy

Participate in the Project Management Knowledge Base!

Hello PPers,



On the subject of moderators, housekeeping, and maintaining order on a discussion forum...



If the moderators were not on the case, what should we do to stop people being rude and abusive etc? Wouldn’t the whole system degenerate? i.e. some good discussion and a percentage of rude back-chat?



Are we saying that if no-one removed the odd rude message, would they not be posted in the first instance? How should this, could this work? Do we have no rules??



I know that some of the moderators initially offered their time to help run the forum, however, their role now seems to have to involve a large degree of removing rude posts. This does not make them happy.



This is an interesting question. Your collective thoughts would be welcome.



PP Admin Team (Volunteer planners like yourselves).

Is it worse to be moderated or to self censor????

Quote from Philip:

"Any body [who] wants to learn fly-fishing can learn from my apprentice"









Is that because you are incapable of tying your own flies, Philip?



Stuart



www.rosmartin.com

Clive,

Folks,



Planning Immortals, is just begenning to kick off.

(Under improving planning planet website).



All the best,



Darrell

Clive,



That’s a good idea; could this dictionary also include definitions for humour, humorous and po-faced as well?



Chris Oggham

Hello to all,



I appreciate the moderator quick actions.



This will ensure democracy will continue in PP.



Some PP becomes emotional and hinting on physical abuse towards their peers in PP.



It is the moderator sound judgement that the forum rules shalll be implemented.



LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS, the guardians of democracy in Planning Planet.



LONG LIVE, LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS.



without you democracy in PP will be curtailed.



LONG LIVE, LONG LIVE THE MODERATORS.



Cheers and Have a beautiful weekends,



From Charlie with all the blessings

Clive,



If the views of the majority were always expressed,

then what need do we have, for any form of debate or discussion?



And it is Feckan, as in feckan ejit.



All the best,



Darrell

Another interesting explanation here:



Cute hoor

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Cute hoor is a Hiberno-English term used to describe someone who will do whatever it takes to achieve what they want. Usually a cute hoor will not break the law but it is seen as willing to bend and use the law, use people or use situations to come out on top, by pulling dishonest or misleading stunts en route.



In this context cute means cunning, and is a clipped form of acute. The word hoor (pronounced hoo-r) is based on the English word whore, but in the term cute hoor has no sexual connotations.



The term cute hoor is often used as a quasi-affectionate term, for someone whose utter unreliability and untrustworthyness is well known, seen through and treated almost as a joke. Then Irish Tánaiste Brian Lenihan was described as a cute hoor on a Late Late Show TV special about him in 1990 by some of his colleagues and friends, who recounted stories of his unreliability, including promising parents he’d get jobs for their children, then losing the piece of paper on which he’d recorded the details, or making ’spur of the moment’ promises to voters during elections that would be forgotten as quickly as they were thought of. In Lenihan’s case, his cute hoor image came back to haunt him when the question of his trustworthyness and reliability became a central issue in the 1990 presidential election, an election he sensationally lost to Mary Robinson.



Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cute_hoor"

Katalin,



Oooohhh, nicely stated, very clear defitition & analogy.



Respect,

Darrell

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4058648-102278,00.html

Haughey was the Juan Peron of Irish politics. Like the glamorous Argentinian dictator, he inspired a fanatical following with his peculiar blend of nationalist fervour, right-wing views and appeasement of powerful trade union leaders. He was master of the small political gesture - granting tax exemption to artists and free travel to retirees - and was hugely popular. He was also the supreme practitioner of the Irish political art of ’cute hoorism’ (’a clever whore’), slyly outmanoeuvring his opponents with backstage deals. He cultivated his image as the man of power, the man of decision, the very embodiment of the Irish nation.

Clive,



Don’t know if you were referring to Philip or myself (Darrell). You are correct I would suggest, in that point that you have just made. That this forum is titled "Democracy vs Totalitaranism" (Whatever that means), which automatically brings into play the whole "freedom of speech thing", that anyone should get moderated upon, is ironic.



Their is also another expression we have here,

its called "Cute-Hoorism".



And I actually picked it up from overhearing a politician talk. Don’t normally listen much when politicians talk, more fool me. But this expression struck a chord with me.



Does anyone know what it means? or as Planners could ye work it out?



Also remember, "Fulashite", is just an expression used in Ireland by some, to express an opinion about a feeling one has, about some of the discourse carried out by certain people. Again it is a cultural ting.



Slán go fóil,



Darrell

Hi Philip,



I did experienced some of my post deleted by miderators. I did feel edgy and same like you.



The only difference was that I always recall my previous post



(Product of the French Revolution)

"The Declaration of the Rights of Man



"4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law."



The limit in PP are the forum rules. The moderators base their actions on the forum rules.



I did not take offence on the actions by the moderator. We will just let the moderators be what they are suppose to be, anyway PP give us the chance to let us be also.



Have a nice weekend.

Charlie

Philip,



Politics & histo-political reference were never a strong point of mine. Am aware of some of the main historiocal events, Irish, European & World. Am certainly no historian. Perhaps there are patterns developing, in developing nations that some are loathe to notice or will not acknowledge. All nations perhaps should be developing??



Might I suggest that their is no intrinsic difference between "Democracy" and "Totalitaranism". But their is a huge difference in the application and the leadershit of any of these types of societal structures. Therein lies the issue.



They have both worked and failed at different times historically. A sudo-type-democracy seems the flavour of the day in western society, with a slight para-noia-semi-police-type-arrangement.



And in school many years ago, we were doing "Ancient History", we read and were told that the Greeks invented democracy?????? Open to re-writing or correction of course.



Might I also say the, the word "Bollocks" in Ireland is seldom taken as an insult or swear word. This is a cultural ting though, so no offence intended.



Respect,

Darrell

Philip



"An interesting point is that the first so-called democracy was Scotland"



Interesting? Well it may be an interesting claim but it’s also totally wrong.



I speak as a Scot and also a keen amateur historian.

Hi,



Before Renaissance



Killing of Jesus.

Persecution of Christians.

Crusade.



After Renaissance



Imperialism and colonial rule.

Racism

Slavery.

Genocide.

Fascism.

Nazism.

Holocaust.

Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Communism.

Apartheid

Bosnia.

Embargo.

Clash of Civilizations.



These are the hallmarks of societies which presume itself as the Inventor, Champion and Propagator of “Democracy” as if “Democracy” is end in itself for which Human Being is Created.



Moreover defeat of Napolean in Waterloo by Lord Nelson had nothing to do with “Democracy”. But with Planning a big “Yes”. It was just matter of “Fifteen minute or so” …. I forgot the detail…….





Cheers.

I’m reading Michael Moore book "Dude, where’s my country?" Try to read it. I think it is about the democracy. He was able to publish it, but so what. Most of my life I worked for big companies. All over the places restrictions. Try to make a "real" schedule when you are on the contractor’s side or the client’s side. Think about the milestone contracts. Big "democracy" there too. I think we need to discuss this things among us. How to do your job without hurting anybody.

Regards Katalin

Darrell,



You have a very good point, in no state anywhere are we ’free’, just more ’free’ in some than others.

Bill,



Excuse the late reply, but in "The States" you can end up on an island, with no god given right, with you right to any rights taken away, never mind free speech.



Personally, true freedom is within the individual.

It is not awarded by a state or government.



Even as you have quoted - Pat Henry (whomever he is), might I suggest is referring to himself, that he would choose death over not being liberated. But was liberated within, as this is what gives him "True" freedom, albeit freedom of speech.



Being able or being allowed to say what you want, does not mean that you are free, well in my opinion.



Respect,

And no disrespect intended.

Darrell

The word democracy taken from the Greek word (Greek demos,”the people”; kratein, “to rule”), Democracy started in Ancient Greece then traveled to Ancient Rome. Democracy survived the “Dark Ages”, survived absolute monarchy and other form of government that degraded humanity.



In the 20th century we saw the birth of Nazism and the establishment of the Third Reich, Totalitarian German State. In addition, we saw the rise and fall of communism.



When I was in college way back in 1983, my professor predicted the downfall of communism. He based his prediction from history: no form of government that curtailed liberty, freedom and degraded humanity will survive. Communism in the former USSR did fall in August 1991.



I believe long time ago that democracy will last forever because it is in the human heart to be free. As one immortal said: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.



Look at the birds, they are free to fly wherever they want to go. Humans also long to be free and to fly wherever they want to go.

Philip,



Napoloen the best ever planner - um, I believe he lost in the end - so someone did their planning better!



Good planning gets the end result - Napoleon failed to get the end result he was seeking.

Charleston,



The rights of the individual may be a wonderfull thing to debate but have nil relevance to any rights that may exist between parties to a construction contract.

Guess that depend what country you live in!

Hi guys,



Do you know that Napoleon was a product of the French Revolution. And..



the French Revolution produce the Declaration of RIGHT OF MAN. And..



The Rights of Man produce some sort of relevance to the topic at hand as quoted



"4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law."



I hope this will ring bells.

Hi Philip,

I also like to know, why must Napoleon and Beethoven?, Why not Hitler and Michael Angelo......this is somthing intresting and make me think....why?

regards

Hi Philip,



I agree we all need to learn from past mistakes, our own and that of others - and partly this is what this forum allows us to do.



If you would please elaborate further on Napoleon and Beethoven so that I might be able to use it’s relevance in my work I’d be very gratefull.

Philip,



Well I have to admit I don’t know about the relationship between Napoleon and Beethoven or the end of it - and if I die not knowing, I don’t think I’ll lose any sleep between now and then.



I do know about the job I have to get up and do on Monday morning however, so I’ll concentrate on that and get that bit of life right before worrying about the rest.

Philip,



I know we’ve had our differences in the past, but please believe me when I say that no-one is putting you on trial; there is no jury. The sole purpose of the Moderators is to ensure that the rules of the forum and guidelines for posts are followed. They have to ensure that people using the forum are not offended by anything posted on the forum, which of course means that sometimes they have to edit or delete posts.



There are some people who, having had a post edited or deleted, would react unfavourably and, if the Moderator’s identity was known, would attack them through the forum or the Private Mail facility. This means, however, that to avoid this possibility, the Moderator who edits or deletes a post must remain anonymous.



If a post is edited or deleted, I don’t believe that that is the end of it. I’m sure that a Private Mail (sent through PP Admin perhaps) explaining what was really meant could result in the post being reinstated with a suitably amended wording. What won’t do any good, though is saying the Moderators are uneducated, or calling them idiots, nor will saying they are not up to speed on all issues. Moderators necessarily have to confine themselves to the primary focus of the forum, Project/Programme Planning and Management issues.



You are obviously a man with far-ranging interests, and perhaps the scope of this forum is too restricted to cover all the subjects you want to discuss. You may find the URL below of some interest as it is one of a number of associated forums covering just about any subject you can think of.



http://moncom.net/moncomworldevents.asp



Chris Oggham

Democracy is the best that the world was able to come up. It is in our human heart, our desire for freedom. In the exercise of democracy, we have to be responsible and considerate with others feeling and rights for democracy. Some norms, policy, procedures must be in place to protect democracy that we treasure in our hearts. We must ensure that in the exercise of individual democratic rights, such actions shall not trample on others who also wish to exercise their individual democratic rights.