How Planners Should Interact with Project Teams

I am too embarressed to state that the dry dock slot os 1st March 08. NOT!



To the edge?

Clive,



I have been out slaying dragons in Dubya. Got Norske project to sanction, got punted (easy target as I was the commuter and a woman and WORSE lippy) then on the back of that the rest of the Planning Team resigned within 4 days. What a great send off present!

Still as one door closes 5 others open and I am now on site. Company paying for me living in 4 star accommodation so 3 month lease ties and pay and organise the flights. They also pick me up and drop me off. Bliss! Await the sailaway date next week then its Hull asssessment (currently en route from China me ole China), slap on Topsides modules, utilities, mooring, accomodation, gubbings etc.

Must rescusitate The Book and find out where Sweaty Betty is.

Some things change but not others!!!

Thanks for the laughs!!

Clive,



I have been out slaying dragons in Dubya. Got Norske project to sanction, got punted (easy target as I was the commuter and a woman and WORSE lippy) then on the back of that the rest of the Planning Team resigned within 4 days. What a great send off present!

Still as one door closes 5 others open and I am now on site. Company paying for me living in 4 star accommodation so 3 month lease ties and pay and organise the flights. They also pick me up and drop me off. Bliss! Await the sailaway date next week then its Hull asssessment (currently en route from China me ole China), slap on Topsides modules, utilities, mooring, accomodation, gubbings etc.

Must rescusitate The Book and find out where Sweaty Betty is.

Some things change but not others!!!

Thanks for the laughs!!

Thanks Gordon, that english native speakers thing is not a big deal, for me at least.

The main point of communicating is to make yourself clear for others, if you trying to speak slangs, its not our problem if we did not get what you trying to say.



Its a problem with Message Encoding Not Decoding (if that makes sense anyways)



Cheers,

Charlie,



If your jelousy of native english speakers bothers you so



much, i can get you a job here on more money!





..... I could do with a new gardener, the back lawn is just



too large and the grass is very unruly.





I plays havoc with my croquet matches!

Speaking as an Engish speaking Expatriate Scot, I will happily take any sunshine the English have left over, any place any time. Bring it on!



Scots Wa Hae!

Mohamed,



No need to apologise, as far as I can tell, nobody had a problem with your post, it seems a perfectly reasonable summary of the benefits of having a proactive Planner.



Charlie,



You do realise that your tirade’s could come across as ... well, perhaps a little racist?..



Not having a go, just friendly advice



Cheers,



Gordon

Sorry guys, seem my reply was out of context, dint check previous comments but the topic inspired me :D



Cheers,

3Fs? 4Fs? You would mention that sort of thing on this project without running FAST!

3Fs? 4Fs? You would mention that sort of thing on this project without running FAST!

Mohamed,



I don’t know whether you noticed this or not, but there was absolutely nothing in Charlie’s post about setting the example to the team by doing your job well. Nor did he mention anything about keeping your competences relevant and up-to-date. As for Charlie’s book choices, rather you than me.



Chris Oggham

Hi everyone,



The main role for Planners is to coordinate with everyone in the project (project team members & other stakeholders) to produce a project plan which all team will be committed to. (Plan buy in)



As the project is in progress, the planner will be the project bird’s eye, he will highlight the potential risks before it becomes delays, & for excusable delays he should be able to assist the project team in brining the project back to track or to justify extension of time.



In projects close out, the planner keeping the whole history of the project will be able to assist the project team in developping the lessons learned for the project, which will be the basis for planning new projects.





Regards,

ooooh, cr@p

thanks Brad

Skan,



I will attempt to answer you question as best I can.

1) Planners produce a plan. with the help of their customers input and other planners. project managers develop a schedule for the specific projects the plan has created. For an example a Planner may develop a plan for a waste water treatment plant. project managers will develop a schedule for the pipe lines to be laid, a schedule for settling tanks to be constructed.



2) By they I think you are referring to planners. The answer is yes, They need to consult with the project managers to get an idea of timelines and specific tasks involveed so well founded plans can be created.



3) See question 2



4) This is tru more so for the project manager than the planner. The planner deals more directly with the customer and is trying to solve the customers problems.



5) planners generally develop plans with several things in mind. 1 what does the customer want. 2 what at the nature of the problems involved: logistical, computerized, engineering, geographical etc.



6) All good plans must be tested and assessed before impletation. and after 6 months they should be reassessed



I whole hearted agree with your statement about planners

Hi,



Interesting discussion and some very protective people contributing.



Can anyone clarify:

1) How do planner produce their plan or schedule or programme?



2) Do they need to speak with the people who are actually doing the work?



3) Do they need to obtain the sequence of activities for the particular project?



4) Do they need information from the person who actually manage/supervise the work?



5) Do they base their planning on the assumption made?eg productivities, labour force, machinery used & environment conditions



6) What happen if the assupmtion made do not tally with the resources available at operation stage whn opertaion commence?



Finally, to answer the initial question posted:

In my opinion is , the planner should be a good listener, have a clear and logical thinking, able to comprehen & digest the information provided, good communicator with all levels(acadamic and elliterate), understand how best to utilise the resources to achieve maximum/efficient effect, able to communicate clearly and concisely in verbal or graphic to the relevent person. He/she should not think too highly of him/her self but willing to accept others opinions and suggestion. Give useful suggestion or prompt to those underprevilage.



I do not think that only Engineers can do the above function but I valued that those with experiences are probably the best equipted to carry out this function.

Brad,

I agree Planning and engineering are two totaly different areas. I have known engineers who could not plan their way to the front door of a house to go for a walk. Likewise I have known planners who had a hard time designing a way to tie their shoes

Hi Brad,



I just read through your last three posts and while I can’t say I agree with everything you’ve written, I’ve got to admit you do know where to put the knife when it comes to cutting through the cr@p.



Chris Oggham

Brad, take a look at this ;-)



Acronym      Definition

XP      Experience (Microsoft Windows XP)

XP     Chi Rho (Christian youth organization)

XP     Christus (Latin: Christ, epigraphy)

XP     Cross Polarization

XP     Cross-Platform

XP     Crosspoint (FidoNet Point software)

XP     Expansion Pack

XP     Experian (credit reporting agency)

XP     Experience Points

XP     Experimental Prototype

XP     Explosion Proof

XP     Extended Platform

XP     Extended Play

XP     Extended Stored Procedure (Microsoft SQL Server)

XP     Extra Performance (AMD Athlon XP+)

XP     Extreme Performance (AMD Athlon processor)

XP     Extreme Programming

XP     Microsoft Windows XP (operating system)

XP     Plans and Programs (USAF)

XP     Symbol or monogram for Christ or Christianity (from X and P, the first two letters of the Greek word for Christ)

XP     Xanthogranulomatous Pyelonephritis

XP     Xeroderma Pigmentosum

XP     Xperience

XP     Xtreme Prejudice (gaming clan)



and btw if you want how to deal with IT plans whilst you don’t poses an engineering degree, kindly refer to the older posts in this thread (especially #9, 10).

Do the planner with 2 years of XP knows the job better than a foreman or supervisor who has been doing the same work for more than 10 years?.

If the foreman or supervisor has the guts to learn how to deal with planning software and attend some courses then he can do it better than the youngster engineer.



A foreman or supervisor can read the drawings, communicate better, and understand scope of work.

For me, I haven’t met with an office-stayed planner better than a site planner because simply site visits are not enough to learn from.



btw, I have a civil engineering degree.



Karim

Is it mandatory that every planner who has an engineering degree will produce good plans for granted?

And on the contrary a planner with no engineering degree will always fail the project and produce meaningless plans?



Not necessarily at all.



Even if the planner poses an engineering degree, he must learn from the site how the job is done and often he has to learn this from the site foremen or supervisors (in addition of course to the site engineers).

It may take some time for someone who doesn’t hold an engineering degree but I’m certain that it can be done.



Karim

Charlie



I too received the "what are you planning for if you dont know what we are doing?" approach when I first started in oil and gas. It really made me not want to ask questions, when that was the only way I would learn!



Don’t be put off by this attitude, if you do understand the works and equipment then the attutude becomes "you think you can do it better than me, who are you to tell me how to do my job?" There’s no winning by tackling this head on, really



It takes a while to develop the correct filters to enable you to shrug this sort of rubbish off. Mostly it’s just people who don’t want to get involved in the planning effort for their own reasons.



Despite some acute political problems where I work (mostly revolving around a perceived need for job protection), I much prefer oil and gas to Commercial developement, which is where I was before. Despite the prejudice against people from outside the industry (if you haven’t got 50 years in oil and gas and you don’t eat oil rigs for breakfast then you don’t know anything etc etc) they actually take the job seriously, consider safety paramount and really appreciate the benefits of finishing on time, things that I found very lacking in commercial developement.



I like the analogy of the planner as a nucleus, although I’d probably use the word nexus. We collect, process, order and rearrange information (inputs from all engaged parties) into a coordinated whole (the plan)

It all depends on the attitude.



As datta and James had said, you need to have knowledge of various areas of project management to become an EFFECTIVE planning Engineer.



Planning Engineer is basically the NUCLEUS of the project with information flowing in and flowing out from this department. If he is having any deficit in knowledge in any of the areas, then he is definitely going to struggle.



Chris, people like you are rare and may fit more into IT projects rather than hard-core construction projects involving civil, hydraulics, mechanical, electrical and instrumentation works.



Planning Engineers must have an engineers qualification to get into the things more swiftly rather than learning various levels and subjects each and every time.



Cheers,



Rav

Hi Chris,



You have absolutely correct on this, You seem have gained enough exposure/experience retrofitting "SUB’s" and thereby raising your profile. No doubts about that experience & you know the ins & out of the work flow.



Site exposure is really worth & i presume all planners have a desire of raising their level to a Project Coordinator or a Proj Manager to be more effective. This is where your engg background or your real experience of construction helps.

As a Construction Manager, it may not matter whether u have a degree or not as long as u have requisite experience, but being a Project Manager/Coordinator does require knowledge of design.

As long as one is happy with planning & only planning, non engg background "may or may not" matter, but definetly for a higher level of job function, it does matter.



Cheers

datta

I believe that a planner fulfills a co-ordination role, thus he or she needs to communicate with all disciplines executing a project. Of course this will vary depending on the project but for a typical construction case it might include knowledge of (in no particular order);



Trades.

Engineering.

Cost control.

Procurement.

Contract administration.

Safety.



There are several overlaps in the above, especially in the administration disciplines.



The level of knowledge needs to me that which enables the planner to fully discuss the works with each specialist, give meaningful input (and not get bullsh1tted!) A cetrtain "mechanical sympathy" will enable the planner to fill gaps in their knowledge quickly.



A construction based engineering degree (I have a BEng in civils) covers most of the above in varying depth. Site exposure (I have 15 years PM exp) is worth 1,000 times more.



Given the choice between a fresh graduate from a 4 year civils course and a nongraduate with 4 years site exp, I would consider my choice very carefully.



And Chris, you know Charlie is winding you up. I love the fact that he uses the Phillipines as an object lesson in how to plan works.

Hi Datta,



You are absolutely correct, my work now is predominantly in IT, but it wasn’t always like that, my first planning job was a refit for a submarine. Despite the fact that I didn’t have an engineering degree, the refit finished on time and the vessel was back on station when it should have been.



Ideally, what you want is someone with an appropriate qualification who can do the work. If it comes down to a choice, though, between someone with the qualification and someone who can do the work, which are you going to choose?



Chris Oggham

Nicely Said Chris,



But looking into your profile , it seems that u are on the planning side of IT Projects which is entirely different from Oil/Gas/Petrochem/Metallurgy/Building Projects where one needs basic engineering "bent of mind".

If one considers planning as drawings lines (duration) with logics as informed by disciplines, then its different planning.

I can say for sure that Planners with Engineering background or experience are better equipped to plan.



I am from India (Commonwealth country) & from one of the top consultancies & where only Engrs that too from Top institutes were selected for all Engg Jobs including Planning.



Cheers

Datta

Hi Guys,



As we can see from his last post Charlie has let his usual ignorance and bigotry blind him to the facts.



According to Charlie in order to be a planner you have to have an engineering degree, what rubbish! I don’t have an engineering degree, yet I have been planning successfully for more years than I care to remember.



Again according to Charlie, America is the number 1 country because they take project management seriously by staffing it with engineers. Charlie, you take project management seriously by staffing it with people who can do the work to time, cost and quality, just as you’d expect from a contractor engaged to carry out work for you. So it doesn’t matter whether they have formal qualifications or not.



Charlie then goes on to say that in the UK, Commonwealth or British influenced countries this is not the case and because of this projects are delayed. Has Charlie ever worked in any of the countries he has vilified? No! So there we have it gentlemen, proof from Charlie himself that he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.



Chris Oggham

Robert,



Thats what I was exactly pointing. Planning Engrs should not be different i.e they should having engineering background. Sadly in many places, you will find thats not the case.

Again, top companies will not fire a Planning engr without an engg background.

There is a similar view on Cost engineers, commercial background of eng background.

In many companies its a misnomer, Cost Controls with commercial background. But when it comes to Cost estimation, i have no doubt that he/she should have an engg background as its more technical than anything else.



Cheers

When I accept a new planning engineer to my team, I tend to look for someone with a engineering background, or scientific, as these are essentially problem based discipines, the same as Project Planning. I’m not too picky though.



If they have a sharp mind, and know how to handle "people", the rest falls into place surprinsingly quickly.

I dont think the Americam Planning association would agree with your definition of planners. Most Planners here are degreedwith a bachelors or masters degree in Urban planning.

Charles,

Normally Planners are qualified engineers i.e they do have the "engineering bent of mind" to understand the entire project.

My view is "before discussing/interacting with any discipline specialist, one should have basic knowledge of the Job/Scope/Work Processes & a bit of technical?.

There is a remarkable difference between "Information" & "Knowledge" which a planner should understand. If a planner sticks to "Information", he will always fall behind, if he seeks knowledge then over a period of time there is no reason why a planner shouldn’t effectively interact with specialists.

Get involed in Project issues both technical & commercial & always be inquisitive for every unknown issue.

Cheers