Is it really necessary to learn P3ec in lieu of P3 3.1?

Hi Niek/Alex,



My apologies for spelling your name wrong and thanks & appreciate for your valuable input.I know you always have some round-about for problems,the round-about manual seems to be very big.



Thanks,



Rajeev

Hi guys,



I recently had problems in grouping activities by float and was told that it was due to edging.Can any of you p3ec gurus throw some light on this ?



Next has anybody found a way to reflect late date constraints on activites (late finish constraint to reflect contractual milestones)



thanks,



Rajeev

Dear all!

I am too new into planning(only two years)considering the experience some of you have but I am provoked to write after reading so many comments:-



1. P3.1 was not really sportive to new planners. It is so difficult to get a hang of it when one is new. But yes this difficulty allowed planners (who knew Primavera) gain that Halo status in organizations....no wonder everyone wants to learn it these days. This difficulty is removed in P3e/c.by simplified MSP like ease in creating and handling schedules.



2. For a company that needs to get a roll up of cost at an enterprise level (to fix pricing for a product for example), it’s possible in case of P3e/c

3. The main reason for which it scores over P3.1 is its ease of handling; one can easily insert, delete, and shift WBS. Can import, export projects very easily.



And for a planner that already knows P3, learning P3e/c. is a piece of cake.



"The illiterate of 21st century is not one who cannot read or write, but one who cannot learn, unlearn and relearn." Alvin Toffler

Niek



Dont worry! you are the the first one, Rajeev got my name wrong as well. Anyway if Rajeev is reading our posts, he should be able to create it without trouble. I think (IMHO) some users still in the denied stage. Dont want to learn dont want to listen. It will take time and some user may never convert. Just like PASCAL programmer how many you can find in this world.



Cheers



Alex

Rajeev,



Please read carefully what I’ve sent you in the past.



Here is my reply from September 8th:



"Furthermore I would not use the EPS for that purpose but add a project code with the country hierarchy (much more flexible). You can then group/filter by country and filter out all projects that have a negative finish variance (for instance)



Moving away from your current collision course with the product will save you a lot of frustration and avoid me from explaining things twice.



Thanks,



Niek (not Neik)

Neik,



Based on your advise i updated my license with portfolio analysis but lost almost a day because of problems in software as mentioned by Alex.



I created a user portfolio with filter criteria for finish variance,statement with finish variance greater than 1.

This was based on the tip help that finish variance = current finish - primary baseline.looking at the projects listed i found there was some problem.



The tip help calculation did not match the calculation of value in the database, it was calculating baseline-current finish.



so i had to change the criteria, i called primavera they said it is an error (typo).



Later i found that it does not group by EPS,it was only able to list by WBS.Project level was the highest and no EPS.The grouping said EPS but the application would not do that.I thought i was doing something wrong and called primavera,they said try live data option still did not work.



So they concluded that it is bug and as usual will report to development.Finally all my efforts went in vain as i could not generate a report i wanted.I cannot agree with you that this is a stable program and is a tool for project management enterprise wide .....



Looking forward to your inputs if any.



thanks,



Rajeev

Bill



You will care when at some point in the future your 16 bit applications will no longer run or run with difficulty and you get no tech support.



That’s the real issue to me not which tool gives a "better" schedule today. P3e may or may not be a better tool than P3 right now but ultimately it will be because it’s the only one that is being developed by Primavera.



FWIW There are things I like and dislike about both. To be fair we aren’t really comparing like with like though. P3e is much more than P3. Others have covered the differences so I won’t repeat what has already been stated.



I’ve recommended to my employer that we investigate the latest issue and begin to develop a strategy for transition away from P3 3.1. That is driven by the supportability issue. I don’t think that the transition should begin next week though.



Cheers

Neik,



Thanks for your help.Do you require license for portolio analysis or this comes with project management.I heard that ver 5.0 comes with windows client and web client so they must be packing all together with the single license.



thanks,



Rajeev

Hi Rajeev,



If I tell you that what you asking for can be easily complete in no time and I can set a layout when you open your project. Most likely you wont be agree, or believe me unless I hand held to complete the task.



Use you brain power to figure this out rather, we told you how to do it.



But dont tell you boss you can do it because you dont know , rather it is a software problem...



Alex

Hi Rajeev,



The problem is not the version I’m using because the filtering options in the project view are rather limited. I guess that’s because Primavera wants you to use (read buy) Portfolio Analysis for that purpose.



That product will allow you to define a dynamic portfolio based on the criteria you want; for instance: finish variance, CPI, SPI, etc, etc.



If you don’t have Portfolio Analysis, you can also do this in Project Management (i.e. P3e) by using the report writer, because that will allow you to filter on project performance criteria.



HTH



Niek.

Hi Niek,



Thanks for your response.I am not to proove anything,just to get some help and get things clarfied.



The EPS based on region was choosen as this was the way the business was made and had more sense looking overall strategies and policies.



Now i dont see a field called finish variance to filter in project view,please let me know which version of p3e are you using.



Also which filter would i use for poor performance based on earned value - cost.



Your help in this regards will be highly appreciated.



thanks,



Rajeev

Hi Alex,



If PP Admin will initiate a vote P3 vs P3e/c,



I will vote for P3 because P3e/c is foreign to me. With all respect to all ideas about P3e/c, they are only good for those that have the opportunity to use P3e/c. I also don’t have plans to initiate P3e/c in my workplace.



Cheers,



Charlie



May this response will pass on the voting "for P3 or against P3e/c". Or we can start a new voting thread. But before that, we will continue with generating more information. Thank you.

I don’t understand what are you trying to prove Rajeev



If you define a portfolio for these projects you can run any report you want.



Furthermore I would not use the EPS for that purpose but add a project code with the country hierarchy (much more flexible). You can then group/filter by country and filter out all projects that have a negative finish variance (for instance)



HTH



Niek.

Hi Sudarshan,



Thanks for your input, I appreciate your patience and time. All the problems & issues have been reported to primavera, some of them are know issues. No ETA on this till time.



You have been repeatedly stating that this is an Enterprise application and not as P3, please remember that there has been million’s of projects controlled by p3 worldwide and many of them had 1000’s of activities on a multi-user environment. P3 also had a timesheet program called time sheet professional which was doing the same as the current time sheet application.p3 also had ODBC driver for all interface so that it could talk seamlessly to SAP/BAN & other ERP programs.The only disadvantage faced within last 3-4 years is evolvement in technology on 32bit & 64 bit OS.Since p3 is 16 bit betreive database it will be tough to be compliant on the new 64 bit and then on future upgrade of OS.



Now with the Enterprise version of Project Management software,p3e/c it should be more versatile. Hence I would like to know if you can generate some high level performance reports out of p3e/c.My database has 2 EPS on level 1 based on location and have several EPS broken down the line.Can I generate a report which shows on Level 1 which are the Project doing bad ie. Schedule wise (time) & Progress wise (Earned Value – Cost or resource) comparing to the plan.



Let me give an example so that it is crystal clear for you,if my EPS was Dubai & Abu Dhabi at level 1, and have Project 1-10 in Dubai and Project 11-18 in Abu Dhabi can I generate a performance report which shows as follows:



Dubai:



Project 1 - 14 days late



Project 3 – 10 days late



Project 8 – 10 days late



Abu Dhabi:



Project 12 – 45 days late



Project 15 - 30 days late



The same way the report on performance based on earned value comparing baseline.



Please let me know how would I do that.



Thanks,

Rajeev

Hi,



Suggestion for poll is a good idea. Instead of simpily asking for a vote, we can ask the members to write Top 5 reasons for not moving from P3 to P3e.



Second, what missing P3 feature they are looking for in P3e.

(some of them think it is missing, but simple workaround may be available)



Sure it will be good learning curve for every one of us.

Hi,



As a suggestion for poll is a good idea. Instead simily asking for a vote, we can ask P3 users, top 5 reasons for not moving to P3e.



Second, what missing P3 feature they are looking for in P3e.



Bye

Hi,



As you mentioned Primavera has not stopped developing P3 3.1. P3e is an extension of P3 3.1. When they try to develop P3 to the next level, in addition to bring new concept etc., It is not possible to incorporate all features in one go. (Including few old one)



Primavera has to put their heart and soul in P3e development and acceptance from users (including standalone user) to move from P3. Otherwise users will get back to P3 and say bye to P3e.



If you look at the nearest popular product (not featurewise) is Microsoft. When they try to match P3e, they are just try to copy the P3e idea. They are incorporating various products to address the P3e Suite applications. Eg. SharePoint Portal.



In today’s project environment, Web based application, workflow, Knowledge Management, Document Management etc are part of the whole PMO package. So Primavera is trying to address all the areas. Even lot of major companies are spending money to develop a kind of internal system to meet their requirements. It will be great if an off the shelf product is available in the market to address their 70-80% requirement, it is a great saving for the company. They can concentrate on their business domain rather than developing applications.



Even if we are trying to say some of the features are missing etc. See the bigger picture of it, I should be able to handle my project if I have a broadband Internet connectivity to access my project from anywhere. Web based access, Role based access, Security, reduced the Total cost of ownership, Integration, Workflow, Document Management etc. are must for any application viz., SAP, Maximo, PDS, Windchill.



So early adapters are always benefited in long run. Of course there may be product failures. So need to decide carefully. P3e can not be a failure product. I am not comparing application to application. For eg, take ERP implementation, it will take years to settle, but you can start seeing the benefits once settled. Success / Failure depends on the Organization culture and commitment. (SAP may have great success in company and a big failure in another).



If you have a faith in the company and product, you can start adopting and put the users in the learning curve. Decide to rollout P3e is not like P3 (at least for Medium to large scale organization). It is not just Upgrade, it more than that. Even though not like ERP implementation, but need that kind of systematic approach (Requirement Study, Pilot rollout, complete rollout) and COST. Since it is a role based application, it has a different learning curve depending on their roles. PM does not need to know the P3e PM module, he just needs a good basic knowledge of PM concepts and how to browse thro’ the web based application to find out what he wants. Scheduler / Planner is there to handle the heart of the system.



Schedulers / Planners can grow to next level with their IT knowledge as PM Functional Consulant. (If they are interested in that line). They are not only having the knowledge of handling project but also the kind of system required to meet the same. It is a new area of growth for them like ERP Functional Consultant. (I may be talking bit ambitious but it may be the reality)



Product meeting todays demand is a must. Products like Artemis, Niku, Microsoft etc are moving to Enterprise application. All products can’t meet their flagship product feature when they move on to new module. So when they try to address these, it is not possible to do in one go, that too for a product which has been a favourite over a decade.



Hope Primavera will continue to meet our demands at least for their Survival.



Bye

Se



You are right I am not a bean counter or scientist ... That’s my feeling, if you are not agree. Good.

BTW PP admin should run a voting page for P3 3.1 to P3e 5.0 funcitionality comparison by %

and

Do you perfer P3 over P3e base on you used both product.



That way we can see some scientific result.



Good Idea??



:-o



Alex

Sigfredo



No one can force you to do anything (work related) except your boss, I guess to some extends.



We are here do discuss pro and con of a product and do we really need to jump ship??



Is the new ship bigger better?? (or too big may be)

Is the new ship bigger and harder to drive??

Is the old ship start to sink??

Is everyone already on board the new ship?? (of course not in this case)

Is the new ship faster??



You need to judge it by yourself! in this forum you will find around 50/50 in IT forum you may find 80/20 in favorable of P3e.



If P3 fit your organisation, your personal need, running the projects in perfect control no room for improvement, that is fine we are not here to force you.



Alex

Hi Rajeev,



I do agree that your most of the queires are in the existing enhancement list of Primavera.



(IF you work in P3e, you will also come up with lot of enhancement for the present product, like exporting all Reports, layouts etc when we back up proejct in .XER.)



Layout: Yes it is painful if we manage multiple Projects.



WBS Filter : Yes (As are you aware workaround is available to do so)



P3e has a flexibility to change the planning Unit just a click away (imagine the painful process in P3). So I am seeing the greener side of P3e.



EPS : When Project ID can have 20 characters (compared to 4 in P3), you have greater flexibility in assigning unique proejct ID.I don’t see any problem in it. As Alex mentioned, EPS is a structure.



Field in Column: I agree on the extra field requirement.



As a final note, whether we like it or not, Primavera is focusing its full effort only in the development of Enterprise Edition. P3 product life cycle was over.



Primavera is also trying to bring more functionality in every release. P3e 5.0 will be major product release. (UNDO function - Wow !! Which is a very long time request)



If your organization demands can be fullfilled with P3, you can continue to do so and can be shifted to P3e later.



Still I see the benefit of Enterprise version is more even it is missing some P3 features.



Sudharsan

Hi Rajeev,



I do agree that your most of the queires are in the existing enhancement list of Primavera.



(IF you work in P3e, you will also come up with lot of enhancement for the present product, like exporting all Reports, layouts etc when we back up proejct in .XER.)



Layout: Yes it is painful if we manage multiple Projects.



WBS Filter : Yes (As are you aware workaround is available to do so)



P3e has a flexibility to change the planning Unit just a click away (imagine the painful process in P3). So I am seeing the greener side of P3e.



EPS : When Project ID can have 20 characters (compared to 4 in P3), you have greater flexibility in assigning unique proejct ID.I don’t see any problem in it. As Alex mentioned, EPS is a structure.



Field in Column: I agree on the extra field requirement.



As a final note, whether we like it or not, Primavera is focusing its full effort only in the development of Enterprise Edition. P3 product life cycle was over.



If your organization demands can be fullfilled with P3, you can continue to do so and can be shifted to P3e later.



Still I see the benefit of Enterprise version is more even it is missing some P3 features.



Sudharsan

Rajeev,



I feel you are still missing the point



P3e is not P3 and it will never be P3; it does certain things differently and it takes time to get used to that. (I recon from your message that you are still in the "denial stage")



If you find a bug, report it to Primavera; they will fix it either in the current release or the next one. (it is not P3)



If you find something missing, send an enhancement request to Primavera; they are likely to add it in the next release if you are not the only one. (it is not P3)



To illustrate the point: P3e Release 5 solves some of the issues you bring up, like filtering on responsible manager.



Concentrate your energy on making P3e work for you and bringing you the functionality you desire, unlike P3 it is a product that is in full development that will bring you a lot more once you’ll understand the concept.



HTH



Niek.

Rajeev



Please my name is Alex not Wang... or your can call me Mr. Wong, thanks.



BTW please read my previous post, what you mentioned in filter is correct and agreed my point is P3 dont have that function why complaint....



In addition, for the rest of your clarification, again if you read my reply carefully, you will find that yes p3e can do what you said...



Good Luck



Alex

Hi Sudarshan,



Find my response/clarifications.



Layout:The concept of layout based on database was to have a standard layout.How can you have a



standard layout for Projects.Forget the contents and barcharts,the layout drives your output and



hence your page setup.How can you use a layout for Project A which has only 6 months durations



and Project B which has 4 years.For a 4 year Project you would not show days/week and your



timescale is more condesed comparing a 6 month project.I have been really wasting my time going



from one layout to another for different project.This is only experienced if you are handling



more than one project or may be like 10-20 projects.Next if you are a project controls,very ofter



you create custom layout for whatif or different analysis which is Project based and cannot be



shared with other projects as criteria & specs changes project to project.

Hence i strongly beleive that this concept is really tedious or waste of time in



creating/changing layouts.







Cost Account: I agree that you can only view resource/cost account properly in Resource



Assignment view and not in normal activity layout with bar chart.Resource assignment view do not



have bar chart.Again you cannot create profile/histogram out of cost account.Have you use filter



for resource/cost account if you have multiple resource/cost account assigned ? Very funny for



ex. If i assigned Activity A with Res 1 & Res 2,you would have to filter Res = Res 1,Res 2 as



Program combines these resource same is for cost account.You dont even have a pull down list for



res or cost account in filter.



There was a comment from Wang that use Resource code,it should be noted that cost account is a



widely used field and all the other 3rd party cost or earned value program like cobra,cost



manager etc.. are all built in with cost account field



Filter: i created a Project which is cost loaded and wanted to run a cost report excluding



activties under WBS = Engineering. Now i dont have an option to do it as the Program do not have



"not under",the turn around advised by primavera is to use "is under".I have like 40 WBS,i have



to create 39 filter criteria to exclude one wbs.Please understand my sufferings.Next i define the



OBS,great feature.I assigned OBS (Responsible Manager) for my WBS’s in the Project.Now i want to



filter activities uner Reponsible Manager = XYZ, i dont have this facility.What is the fun in



assigning unlimited stuff and you cannot use it.



Please understand i am just trying to tell you my bitter experience.P3e/c has been designed to



have unlimited input but most of them do not either cross check nor help you.



Another example, i assigned budgets for my WBS, beleiving the fact that WBS roll up to the



project.But i could not roll up all the budget under each WBS to the project budget as the



program do not total the assigned budget under each WBS.



Fields required to be inserted through columns are BL2 & 3 cost and resource information.BL1,2 &



3 Calendar ID,Variance on BL2,3 etc..



Master / Sub-Project: As i stated EPS is just a graphical structure and do not match the Master



Project.For example if you were planning a Petro Chem. as a EPS (p3e) or Master Projects (p3)



with each area as Project (p3e) or SubProject (p3) you could not assign scheduling parameters to



the EPS as you could do it for Master.Say the overall Project has a period of performance of 5



years and each area had different milestones you could have Master Project with a finish



constraint and subproject with its own constraints.Can you do this with p3e no.



You said EPS is heirarch,do you know that EPS ID and Project ID is designed internally same in



p3e although it is called different.ex. you cannot have an EPS with ENGG and Project ID ENGG.

So internally it is all at the same level and same. In P3 if you had Master Project say PRJ1 WITH



sUB pROJECT ENGG,PROC & CONS and try to do the same in p3e you could not as the Project ENGG,PROC



& CONS cannot be duplicated in the whole database.



I just came accross some funny bugs on updating i had an activity with Actual finish date of 5



days, i wanted to change its finish date to reflect 1 day ie AS=AF it would not allow me to do.I



had to change my units to hours and then do this. The same if you want to status an activity



which you forgot in the first rev and you want to assign an AS & AF it would not allow to assign



before the data date.



The Timescale for Fiscal Year is another funny way of presentation,we have our Fiscal year



starting from October, when i change the timescale to fiscal year and have week/day it converts



the timescale for month of August to november & month of September to december.



There is more of issue related to p3e which i would detail later.



Thanks,



Rajeev

Hi Charlie,



P3e is Scalable and Role based application.



Depending on the Organization and Project size, the role may vary. Like you mentioned in Construction Company, Planner is capturing the actual hrs.



But in Oil and Gas Shutdown, IT dept will take care of Product installation, patch update, P3e Database creation, maintance, Basic EPS / Project structure creatation, users and his profile creation, Integration etc.



After mutually agreed they will setup all codes / standards etc in P3e.



Each Planner will input in the P3e. Project Manager will have access to all Projects. Scheduler will be responisble for input as well as maintaing the Primavera data (not database), reports, daily back up of network (database backup will be done by IT).



During Project execution, various Time keeper will update the actual time taken for the activity (Paper based Timesheet filled by Engineer/ Supervisor and timekeeper will collect at the end of the day for data entry)



Once all the data entred by timekeeper, it will be approved and updated in the P3e. Then will run schedule and reports for review of the days work.



(For Project update, we tried Primavera Mobile Manager. Due ot its limitation of data handling and lack of features, we couldn’t continue to use the same. But it is a promising application. Primavera improved it in P3e 5.0. So egarly expecting the same. It will be helpful, but will burdern the Engineers for update. It is good if project is having less number of activities)



Then Primavera data will be updated in SAP ERP. (Still in development stage. Not full fledged roll out has not happened)



The Project handling / data update will vary from Project to Project and Organization to Organization.



I just try to give a overall idea only.



So standard scable application with seamless integration (with ERP) helps a lot and time saving effort. Here Primavera Enterprise comes handy.



It is having SDK and API, so developing external application is also possible. (It again depends on organization size, requirement etc) Point is, it is possible. If you are not happy with 3rd Party application, if you are capable to develop inhouse applciation, you are free to do the same.



Export to Excel is more easy now with P3e 5.0 (P3 also possible to export excel), but it is more than that. If I have to update more than 1000 equipment data in P3e. I can import the data from SAP in Excel and Export the same to P3e and update the same as and when required thro SDK.



P3e is next generation PM application. It is moved from a mere Scheduling tool to wider range of addressing the Project requirement. Since it is a role based application, Planner / Scheduler is become a part of the application.

During P3 days, Planner/ Scheduler are the only one handling Primavera. Eventhough Planner/ Scheduler is the heart of the System, still others also play a role which Planner need not carry the burdern.



Since I am not from Construction Industry, I may not aware of the concerns.



Industry like Oil&Gas, Defense, Aerospace, IT etc, requires Primavera Enterprise kind of product which is scalable, role based, open for seamless integration etc. to handle the project in a highly competitive environment.



So it is purely organization demand drives the selection of application.

Hi Charlie / Alex,



What it means, it is scalable. You can use as a standalone system and it can be used in a bigger enviornement also.



Alex, Regarding learning curuve, it is time consuming only for existing P3 user because of the feature comparison and immediately not open to P3e (most of the case, it is not any body’s mistake, it is natural).



It is very less for those first time user for P3e. They able to adapt quickly and move on.

Hi Charlie



I think what Niek means we (planner) no longer need to tailor made MS Access adn MS Excel Database to capture time. The software already comes with ready to use time sheet function which can be integrated. That will give us (Planner) a lot more time to focus on the schedule. How long did you take to develop or modify your Access time sheet DB in each project. If I said to you that it is not necessary anymore you can get the actual $ and actual hrs updated monthly. Will it may your life easier. More time your schedule anaylsis and planning for future...



Yes and No for whether the size of the company matter?? The bigger the company the more benefits that the software can provide. Even with only one project you can still benefits from some of its packaged functions like web base update, timesheet, documents sharing, work flow approval. Again P3e is only a tool, you need a good driver to make use of a good tool to achieve a excellent result.



Cheers



Alex

Hi Rajeev,



Let me try to answer for your questions.



Layout: Yes, it is an issue. It is not like P3. But we have indirect way to solve it by export / import options.



Cost Account: You can very well assign multiple resources and cost account to an activity. You can Group and sort by Resource/cost account in Resource Assignment view. Here you it will repeat the same activity multiple time. So kindly check the same by viewing Resource Assignment view.



Filter: For eg. WBS code you mentioned. It is possible in P3e. I can’t understand what is the difference (significance) in using WBS code instead of WBS ? Even if you choose WBS code, when you click value, it displays WBS Code and Value to choose. It is also having filter condition of is under, equal to, not equal to.



Could you please explain me to understand the usage of WBS Code and WBS in the filter?



Master / Sub-Project: It is possible more than what you are looking for.



In P3e as you are aware it is designed as EPS / Project (each database can have different EPS / Projects). EPS has hierarchy and Projects are created under EPS nodes depending upon the requirement.



You can create a Master Project under one EPS and various other sub-projects (eg. Civil, Structural Steel, Piping etc) in one level down EPS. If you want to give constraint for each project, you are free to assign the same. If you would like to link one project to another (one project activity relationship to another Project), you open the projects required to link and give the relationship. (Similar to interproject relationship). When you click predecessor or successor for assignment (you can group the pre/succ activity by Project, WBS hierarchy, EPS etc.), so you are able to link the activity very easily and no confusion due to its group/sorting. It has further options for easy assignment.



In P3, if you open Master Project, it will open the sub projects also. You can not open any two sub-projects at a time (if Master project and 4 sub project scenario)



But in P3e, you can choose the project(s) which you would like to open. To ease the operation, you can define you own Project Portfolios option. For eg. If your organisation is having 10 Projects but you are using only 5, you can create your own Portfolio and name it. Then open your portfolio, it will display your projects. You can click at higher level to open the entire project or select the required project to open. Moreover, you can open any number of project say, Civil, or Civil + Steel or Civil + Piping. Any combination of Project opening is possible. It is not possible in P3.



So it is more flexible than P3.



As I mentioned earlier posting, it has more features for eg. RBS, OBS, Top down estimation, Portfolio etc. These are very helpful to handle the project better.

Just tell me the time to open a Project with 5000 activities in P3 and P3e. You will feel painful if you are used handle the same in P3e. It opens our 10 Projects (together 50,000+ activities) easily.



Hope I answered some of your questions.

Rajeev,



I think a few things you mentioned in your post is incorrect. I am only try to help here. Please dont take me wrong. I do want to have the right answer for everything.



"Let me clarify my postion.The concept of layout for the database is tedious when you handle lot of projects and when you are the main project controls.



As you know each layout is formated with its own fileter,grouping,columns and print setup.So how can we have common layout for projects.As i open project in p3e/c it opens the last layout opened,this might have been created for some other projects and will not be any use for the current project.So you are forced to save layout for each project."



OK in P3 you create a layout for each project right?? You can do the same in P3e right?? You can load the project layout right??... So what is the different?? My suggestion is you create a layout name for every project that you have and save them for later use. ... I cannot see the logic??



"Then if I receive an XER file it does not come with the layout created by the schedule who did the schedule.So i am forced to create the layout once i import it."



OK you received a project from P3 from your contractor, how often they follow the same code structure you specified. And when you merge them together you have to have a standard layout ie AREA PHASE TRADE ... P3e different is your standard layout is already in your database. And if xer file do have a specific layout you can import and export it... what is the different, you dont need to create it from scratch...



"p3 has a lot of criteria for filtering say WBS code.Field required to be inserted through column functions has very less compared to P3."



I should comment that P3 did have a lot of field cannot run filter - And the works around for P3 scheduler is to use export and import to find the activity they want ... I dont see the logic P3e have less ... Please let me know exactly what field in P3e you cannot filter.





I hope you agree that p3e do not organize properly if you assign multiple resources/cost account on an activity.It is simply because in p3e the same activity cannot be repeated. How is this poweful database if it cannot have many to many relationship.



Please clarify!! You can assign the same resource twice in the same activity. And in planning world each activity have to be unique... what you mean by two activities which is exactly the same ?? what do you mean by same activity cannot be repeated. Both P3 and P3e is not allow to have a duplicated ID??



The cost account is a concept used in the whole project managment including PMI now why use Resource code ?



Understand Cost Account - It is only a name... resource code, activity code, wbs as long as it did the job personally I dont care what is it call.



EPS is simple grpahical because as master project it is not designed as a Project. For ex. you can have a constraint for Master Project,can you assign a finish constraint for your EPS.



EPS is not a project is just a structure. You can still create two projects and interlink them??



Anyway, that is what I mean, the biggest disadvantage of P3e is ... its power ... the learning curve is

Compare to

MSP which you can build a plan right away

P3 require some level of training

P3e require intensive training before you can setup P3e as a corporate tools



All the best



Alex

Hi Niek,



I took notice of your emphasis on "10,000 time sheet on a weekly basis". The planning manual I got made a point that planners are not time keepers.



I really have not seen P3e/c, but i have no plans of encoding 10,000 time sheet on a weekly basis. Or, I really dont want to be a timekeeper.



I’m do aware that as planner I need to capture the actual manhours allocated to complete per activitiy. I’m doing this in MS Access and MS Excel.



I read a little about P3e/c and I notice it need a lot of additional software to run P3e/c. It may marginalize the planning engineers working in medium or small contruction company. Or in other word, P3e/c maybe only applicable to big company willing to make financial investment in P3e/c.



Please correct me if im wrong.



cheeers.



charlie

Hi Rajeev,



Let me try to answer for your questions.



Layout: Yes, it is an issue. It is not like P3. But we have indirect way to solve it by export / import options.



Cost Account: You can very well assign multiple resources and cost account to an activity. You can Group and sort by Resource/cost account in Resource Assignment view. Here you it will repeat the same activity multiple time. So kindly check the same by viewing Resource Assignment view.



Filter: For eg. WBS code you mentioned. It is possible in P3e. I can’t understand what is the difference (significance) in using WBS code instead of WBS ? Even if you choose WBS code, when you click value, it displays WBS Code and Value to choose. It is also having filter condition of is under, equal to, not equal to.



Could you please explain me to understand the usage of WBS Code and WBS in the filter?



Master / Sub-Project: It is possible more than what you are looking for.



In P3e as you are aware it is designed as EPS / Project (each database can have different EPS / Projects). EPS has hierarchy and Projects are created under EPS nodes depending upon the requirement.



You can create a Master Project under one EPS and various other sub-projects (eg. Civil, Structural Steel, Piping etc) in one level down EPS. If you want to give constraint for each project, you are free to assign the same. If you would like to link one project to another (one project activity relationship to another Project), you open the projects required to link and give the relationship. (Similar to interproject relationship). When you click predecessor or successor for assignment (you can group the pre/succ activity by Project, WBS hierarchy, EPS etc.), so you are able to link the activity very easily and no confusion due to its group/sorting. It has further options for easy assignment.



In P3, if you open Master Project, it will open the sub projects also. You can not open any two sub-projects at a time (if Master project and 4 sub project scenario)



But in P3e, you can choose the project(s) which you would like to open. To ease the operation, you can define you own Project Portfolios option. For eg. If your organisation is having 10 Projects but you are using only 5, you can create your own Portfolio and name it. Then open your portfolio, it will display your projects. You can click at higher level to open the entire project or select the required project to open. Moreover, you can open any number of project say, Civil, or Civil + Steel or Civil + Piping. Any combination of Project opening is possible. It is not possible in P3.



So it is more flexible than P3.



As I mentioned earlier posting, it has more features for eg. RBS, OBS, Top down estimation, Portfolio etc. These are very helpful to handle the project better.

Just tell me the time to open a Project with 5000 activities in P3 and P3e. You will feel painful if you are used handle the same in P3e. It opens our 10 Projects (together 50,000+ activities) easily.



Hope I answered some of your questions.



Sudharsan

Wang,



Thanks for the input.



Let me clarify my postion.The concept of layout for the database is tedious when you handle lot of projects and when you are the main project controls.



As you know each layout is formated with its own fileter,grouping,columns and print setup.So how can we have common layout for projects.As i open project in p3e/c it opens the last layout opened,this might have been created for some other projects and will not be any use for the current project.So you are forced to save layout for each project.



Then if i receive an XER file it does not come with the layout created by the schedule who did the schedule.So i am forced to create the layout once i import it.



p3 has a lot of criteria for filtering say WBS code.Field required to be inserted through column functions has very less compared to P3.



I hope you agree that p3e do not organize properly if you assign multiple resources/cost account on an activity.It is simply because in p3e the same activity cannot be repeated.How is this a poweful database if it cannot have many to many relationship.



The cost account is a concept used in the whole project managment including PMI now why use Resource code ?



EPS is simple grpahical because as master project it is not designed as a Project. For ex. you can have a constraint for Master Project,can you assign a finish constraint for your EPS.



I am scheduling a Refinery construction which is planned as master to Subproject in P3,where i have individual constriants for each subproject and a final constrained for the whole construction itself at master project,how do you do this in your p3e which is said for big project.



thanks,



Rajeev

Rajeev



Try to answer some of your questions: Again I have to state that P3e do have a different way of presenting data so bare with me in my explaination



"ex. The Layout concept,in P3 the layout is Project based while in P3e it is database based.This is of now use specially if you have lot of projects and interface XER files with subcontractors."



** Yes P3e is still have layout at project level but only different is now P3e is one big projects instead of lots of individual projects. In addition, you can share layout with others, and define global and local user layout is already a outstanding function compare to P3.





"The filter and data field in columns in P3e is less comparing p3.for ex. There is less field in p3e that i can show related to Baseline (Target)."



**I love the new filter in P3e, it not only give you more control and layers of filters it also again easier to share the filter with others. I am not sure which field you what to filter in the BL schedule let me know I may be able to help.



Filter:p3e states that it is strong on WBS,good point.Say if you want to make a filter to exclude one wbs "WBS not under XYZ" you dont have an criteria for not under.



** Agree, but can P3 do it??





It is weak on graphic reports,specially cost/resource/cost account.



I would like you to assign multiple resources/cost account and use organize (group/sort) by resource or cost account and watch what it does and also look at what p3 can do ?



** I think you can achieve the same result in the assignments view by cost account



In fact it does not have resource profile for cost accounts.Then what is the fun in assigning cost accounts.



** This one have to work around using resource code and stack histogram - again it is a differernt concepts



Can you do a Master Project /Sub project hierarchy in p3e -- no.They have EPS concept,but they are just graphical,it does not consider EPS as a Master Project simple because you cannot have a seperate Constraint and Parameters.



** I am not sure what you try to achieve yes EPS is already a Master Sub project herarchy. I dont understand what you mean by Graphical. It is not only graphical but also a roll out + Drill down. It is a differert concepts from P3, because in P3e you dont need to locate your different files in different place. Its all under one roof.



There are tons of features that p3e cannot still do which primavera is trying to incluse in each upgrade,but it might take another 3-4 years.



** I can not claim myself to be a expert in both P3 and P3e. But I do think I know enough to give some advice how to achieve function in both product. If you can perform something in P3, it is 99% you can do it in P3e. However, if you can do something in P3e, no garrenty that you can achieve the same outcome in P3



Rajeev, please P3e is more powerful than P3 that is why it require a higher skill to drive the product. I mean administration skill not @ user level. As a master planner, my job is to utilise the full potential of the system and give guidelines of how to use the system.



Good luck to explore the full potential of the system. You will love it,and one day you will find P3 is too difficult to use.



Cheers



Alex

Rajeev,



I think you missing the point, like anybody else who is trying to compare an enterprise project management information system (P3e) with one of the best scheduling tools available (P3).



Yes you are right, there are points which are easier done in P3 and not as elegant in P3e. But that’s an exercise in futility because you are comparing a car from the early 80’s with a jet airline from the late 90’s.



I don’t see P3 gathering 10,000 time sheets on a weekly basis and push that data into multiple SAP instances, and that’s where the comparison ends for many large companies.



Both products are very good in their own right and the "spoiled" P3 users will have to wait a few releases until one module out of an entire enterprise PM suite can do the same as P3, in slightly different way.



Time is on my side I’m afraid...

Sudharsan,



Read your posting on P3e features and the way you guys are using it.



I cannot agree with you that p3e has more features than p3 ? Please detail these if you can.



I have been using p3e with more than 20 projects but feels that it is still behind on p3 in different ways.



ex. The Layout concept,in P3 the layout is Project based while in P3e it is database based.This is of now use specially if you have lot of projects and interface XER files with subcontractors.



The filter and data field in columns in P3e is less comparing p3.for ex. There is less field in p3e that i can show related to Baseline (Target).



Filter:p3e states that it is strong on WBS,good point.Say if you want to make a filter to exclude one wbs "WBS not under XYZ" you dont have an criteria for not under.



It is weak on graphic reports,specially cost/resource/cost account.



I would like you to assign multiple resources/cost account and use organize (group/sort) by resource or cost account and watch what it does and also look at what p3 can do ?



In fact it does not have resource profile for cost accounts.Then what is the fun in assigning cost accounts.



Can you do a Master Project /Sub project hierarchy in p3e -- no.They have EPS concept,but they are just graphical,it does not consider EPS as a Master Project simple because you cannot have a seperate Constraint and Parameters.



There are tons of features that p3e cannot still do which primavera is trying to incluse in each upgrade,but it might take another 3-4 years.



thanks,



Rajeev

Sudharsan



Glad to see someone enjoy the P3e experiences as well as the benefits. Finally I dont feel alone anymore.



Keep up the good work. BTW we also integrate P3e with SAP as well. We may need to share some experiences in terms of how to handle the change management in a big organisation.



All the best



Alex

Hi,



One more posting from my side.



YES YOU MUST START LEARN AND MOVE TO NEW PRIMAVERA ENTERPRISE



What I am going to say is not new. It is more on my personal experience.



I have been working for an Oil and Gas Industry. We are using P3e for Shutdown Projects. It is highly resource intensive and need to complete in Time. More than cost, time is a very critical factor. So tool of Primavera caliber is a must for the same. We have been using P3e for the past 4 years. Last 3 years it has been very successful and nobody is thinking of using P3 or Artemis in lieu of P3e.



The acceptance of Primavera Enterprise in an Organization will be boiled down to an adaptability and strong management Support. Of course more users, more trouble in convincing. I took one big Project to prove that P3e is better, of course with management support. Even though users always compared with P3, due to Management strong support, we able to prove P3e and now nobody think of P3. When some new Planning Engineers joined with P3 experience, they started the same story how P3e is bad, our engineers are laughing and telling we also told the same story 3 years before that time P3e was not having this much features.



Oil and Gas also an old economy industry like Contruction etc. They have been doing these kinds of Projects for years. Before we have shifted to P3e 4 years before, we were using P3 3.1 / Artemis. First one year, it was a very painful period of using P3e due to missing features of P3 and other reason was Change Management.



I firmly bet on Primavera that it would come up with a good improvement in every new Product release and listen to customer requirement. Yes Primavera did it. From P3e 2.0 to P3e 3.0 is a good improvement and the trend continues. Due to its strong Customer support and continuous product development enable us to get support from Top management for continuous P3e product upgrade.



Due to P3e the same Project, now we able to handle far better due to its features. No doubt that it is a best tool for a bigger project, multi-user Environment.



Our project is having more than 45,000 activities with 10 users. Due to P3e, we able to add lot of intelligence to the data (more activity codes, Project Code, Resource code, Custom field like indicators). It totally turned down the way we able to see the project data which we handled in the past. It brings different dimension to the same Project.



We divided our project into 10 Projects under different Project node in an EPS. If I would like to analyze, it gives a greater flexibility. It is flawless in handling huge data.



Portfolio Management is a great boon for our Project. It is very handy for viewing Project at a very high level.



Since we have already implemented SAP and running well for more than 3 years and we able bring same kind of discipline for P3e also. It is able to address the user and their access to project, type of application (P3e or Timesheet), User Profile definition (P3e they have added Security Profile), Admin Categories, Preferences, OBS. These all helped to have a greater control on Primavera data. Everybody knows what they can do in Primavera data. They can’t play around and not able to cross their limits.



Primavera Mobile Management: We have introduced Mobile Manager for activity status update. Initially it has resistant later engineers started enjoying. But we couldn’t continue to use the same due to Mobile Manager Product short comings. I bet Primavera will come up with a better product in P3e 5.0. Use it to believe the power of it.



I can keep telling so many things. But I don’t want to bore you much.



Believe P3e has more advantages compared to P3 31. Everybody will agree on that. Yes, it takes time to adjust to P3e from P3 3.1. You will reap the benefits.



All the best.



Regards,



Sudharsan

Hi,



I would like to add few more points to this:



1. EPS

2. Security (Who can do what on Project)



Primavera would like to move from a mere scheduling tool to complete suite of Project Management tool.



As previous posts mentioned, gap between P3 and P3e is narrow down to great extent.



I would like to touch Security Profiles also an important aspect when many engineers are using the same tool and working for a different proejct or same project. Becuase of the user profile definition, we can have a greater control of the Primavera data.



Because of this profile definition, it will bring greater sense of displine of who can control what data. Not everybody able to do whatever they want.



Everybody role can be defined well to handle Primavera data. For eg. with Proper approval only resources can be assigned other than agreed one.



Because somebody will add or delte resources etc. without the knowledge of others. This will help to bring greater degree of dicipline.



We have been using 6 types of User Profiles in Project. This is not possible in P3.



Whenever company is implementing P3e, It requires a strong Change Management Team. Like anything, new changes always face a resistant from the users. (ERP is the best example).



P3e is much much more than P3. Instead of living in the past glory of P3, it is a time to move on.



Primavera will make available 100% P3 features in a year.



all the best.



Sudharsan

Thanks Niek and Alex,



The whole ballgame changed because of the SQL and Oracle database engine for P3ec while DB-IV database for P3.



Maybe I’m old workhorse (20 years experience only) but there are trigger mechanisms in me that make me young again and make me move like stallion. That will be easy for me to catch up with you guys with regards to P3ec skills the moment I reach my Rubicon.



Thanks to all and …



Cheers

Absolutely spot on Alex!



And if I may add my two cents:



First of all, if you move from P3 to P3e, you’ll be moving from one great Primavera product to another. It is not like you’re suddenly forced to work with MickeySoft Project 2003 that breaks down if you try to do something beyond drawing Gantt charts.



P3e “speaks” the same project scheduling language and breathes the same fundamental understanding of scheduling issues as P3. If there is one company that understands the gap between these two products it’s Primavera, all the way up to Dick Faris and Joel Koppelman; don’t worry, I’ve met both of them and they are schedulers in heart and soul who really understand the value of their products.



If you follow the development if P3e over the years, like I have, you will notice that with each release, the gap between P3 and P3e is narrowing. With the introduction of P3e 5.0 almost all P3 features are available now but along with that it is surpassing P3 in any other (new) area. (Scope management, Risk management, Communications management, Cost management, Resource management, and Project integration mgt.)



Many companies are using P3e/TeamPlay in configurations where thousands of users are tracking time against project activities in one single Oracle project database. Thousands of projects are consolidated on a weekly basis and the level of control is just immense; companies have saved millions by deploying it. There is not a shred of doubt that this product will eventually replace what is out there and you’ll not be sorry that you’ve learned how to master it.



Cheers,



Niek.

Hello Alex



That is a very good revelation. I love that, SQL and oracle platform. There must be something great in this program P3ec in the way the program handled database.



I will decide someday if I reach my Rubicon (hopefully it will lead to the glory that was Rome).



Cheers,



Charlie

Se



I dont want to be critical but this is your original post



"I’m posting again this issue because until now it’s not clear or may I say I’m not convinced that it is necessary to change from P3 3.1 platform to P3ec platform. Now Primavera has launched a new product Primavera 5.0. What I strongly believe is for Primavera to improve 3.1 but on the same platform. Of course P3ec enthusiast will definitely bring up the topic about 64bit technology. So what if 3.1 is only 32 bit technology? As planners, can’t we do our work if the platform is 32 bit technology only? I believe planners can do their job effectively in a 32 bit technology so why do we need to change it?



Are we being hostaged here to learn new things even if it is not necessary?



For those who knows about 64 bit and 32 bit technology, kindly educate us on this.



Just asking.



Se"



Firstly, try to correct you in terms of 16 32 64 bit

Hope you are in listening mode



P3 is a 16bit program written in 4GL database

in a simple English it is same class as DB-IV it is not a relational database. All you see is a string of characters.

That is why you can only have 64 character activity code



P3e or Teamplay or P3e/c they are exactly the same product with a slightly different outlook. They are 32 bit program with a SQL or Oracle database platform.

Because it is programmed on a latest database platform therefore it provide some of the functions that you cannot have in P3.



Why Primavera stop develop P3 - they are not able to further develop under the existing platform Simple things like additional activity code which we planner always dream of in P3. No this just not possible to provide our (PPs) need. OK how about build new, development cost is hugh and the exact same reaction will happen just like what you did. Therefore they selected a product line and enhance it to match P3.



When did they reach 95% of like to like - version 5



Yes you can still do your job in P3, the software market is a very completitive market and if they stand still other will take over. Enterprise management, total project management solution is the trend at the time thats why they developed a system focus on things that P3 cannot do and planners and managers are asking for. Of course they cannot deliver everything one go.



In PMBOK nine area P3 cover Time Cost Resource

P3e have Time Cost Resource Risk Communication and most importantly Integration.



That is all the fact



HTH to make your decision,



Alex

Dear planners



Hopefully I did not offended anyone! I am only trying to get a message across that P3e can do certain things that P3 cant, yes P3 is great but it have its limitations, there is no software in the world can do everything There is another thread discussed this topic already.



My point is, P3e can do 95% of what P3 can offer (with a slightly different operational commands) and plus more. The plus more bit is what make the product have its market. The plus may or may not fit everyone needs. Some do some don’t. I do want other planner understand there are plus in P3e. Features we dont use, dont mean it is not important.



From what I see from the forum is, we tend to ignore the plus and focus on the minus. I do want a fare judgement on a product. Because P3e can help me to do my job faster and easier. (BTW is not because of 32bit or 64bit techonology)



All the best PPs



Alex

Hello to all,



LEND ME YOUR EARS.



This thread is informative. Im open to all possibilities and to where my faith will lead me. All of us will cross our Rubicon. And what we learn here in PP may guide us in our decision.



One thing for sure, the planning software today will not be the planning software for tomorrow. How we face it will ge guided by our experience and our belief.



I thank you all and I will respect whatever we decide for our future. May we continue to share whatever we can share for the present planners and for the future planners



Adious Amigoes



Charlie

Hi Bill,



Everyone have their choice, cant agree more



From what I can obsereve from different user groups, in the traditional construction project industries, building, roads, large infrastructure. It is very hard to adopt to a new system, simply because the way it is always manage its projects in their silo. It have pros and cons.I am not try to judge whether it is better to go enterprise or not.



I can see benefits in organisation which do not, or have very limited use of any planning system that gain substaintial advantage after rollout a enterprise system. However the bad news is, study shows about 30% of these system rollout fail to deliver.Like managing a project, it is not the product but its the user, the project manager, the culture, ...



What fraustrate me is not because of acceptance of a tool but rather the enterprise concept. Tool yes you can use any tools to do the job, however the concept of Enterprise Management and Portfolio Management is a no brain-er. Standardise reporting, WBS, Resource Management, benefits the organisation, but because of personal comfort zone, political agenda, loss of control, human nature, that drive the organisation in to stand still mode.



I can not see the reason why, may be I am too scientific and only able to weight the pros and cons for the organisation rather than my own.



Cheers,



Alex

Sigfredo



As I said, you have to make your own choice. If you can do all your management with P3 why change. I am not a P3e seller, I only stated P3e can do these task. Yes there are million software can do the task thats why we have planner using Excel to generate project schedule.



If Excel suit the purposes, fine Excel is your tool. Having said that if better technology comes along, why not give it a go?? P3e is not only ERM tools, or scheduling tools. However, when you ask what is the advantage (additional functions) P3e can provide. I am stated only fact. If you dont like fact... that’s fine with me.



Also we are the driver, software is only a tools. A copy of P3e sitting in your desk does not mean you know how to drive it. I suppose someone just drop the shit on your desk and expect you know how to use it. Some tools we can learn it as its go, some cannot. I guess P3e is a later tool.



Alex