Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys

David,



Who will believe you if you confirm that you have illogical brain?????



This is very dangerous since since a lot of your post maybe derived from your illogical brain and hence illogical conclusion.



This is only a further explanation of your statement, comming from a decription of yourself



I hope you will offer a further explanation HOW you conclude that you have an ILLOGICAL Brain and checked if your previous posting and observation comes from your, you know, I hope you know

DAVID BARDOLI,



you miss the meaning of this thread!!!!!!!!!



the meaning of the thread says "a lot of planners out there are questionable as in ???????



so it follows that the reply to this thread are also ??????



??????? means illogical. This only confirm you statement "To my illogical brain ..." The english language is very clear



"YOU HAVE ILLOGICAL BRAIN"



Crystal clear

Hi Charlie...



How I have missed your wise words of late. This thread will no be so much more informative thanks to your valued input.



Just one thing:

"in Pakistan anyone can be anybody" and "This happened because of corruptions, nepotism, mafias, etc". To my illogical brain those two statements are mutually exclusive.



Heck - but who ever expected a coherent argument from you!



All offence intended of course.



David

HIi Sajid,



I can only say that in Pakistan anyone can be anybody.



So, it is not surprising with your opinion with regards to " here they do not take engineers into planning until they have spent some years in field maintenance". It just show what happen in your country.



We can only wish Pakistan a nd its people all the best.



On the other hand, Pakistan is not alone. I encountered labourer, housewives, from other nationalities, without engineeering background or construction background doing senior planning responsibilities. This happened because of corruptions, nepotism, mafias, etc.



Cheers,

hi

i think it is somewhat different in different industry. i manage shutdowns and turnarounds of a fertilizer plant. here they do not take engineers into planning until they have spent some years in field maintenance. i first spent about six years in different field maintenance positions and now for the past one year i have been working with primavera in the planning team. though i am still not as good as i think i ought to be, in a year or to ill fluent with the soft ware.



the crux of the matter "the company philosophy is: those who have spent some years executing plans themselves, can go on to make good planners in the end"



what do you people say about that

Ken

I agree with both Anoon and Andy who have given you some very good advice.



I would contribute thus by asking you to analysize the information you are given by the estimators and the site manager and see if you agree with it. Is there a better way to do it and if you think so, talk to them and see if they agree, if not, understand why they disagree.



As mentioned by Anoon and Andy, go and see the operations on site and critique it.



You have to gain the confidence of the company that if left to your own devices would you come up with the correct result for the company and not put it at risk of loss.



When you have the confidence that you can do it yourself and you have gained the confidence of others you should still look for better ways of doing something and also don’t forget that it is never a waste of time discussing it with the guys that have to do it on site.



In Planning you have to "buy in" the operatives to your plan and so they believe that it is "their plan" that has been put down on paper. If they do not believe it they will not work to it.



Keep it up you are doing fine.



Good luck for the future



Daya

you are very lucky to have senior planners (i supposed mentors)with you...for me the best route is to master the software you are using and listen, listen, listen, (after all you are the only one mastering the software), after spending enough time Listening! get out of the office (this is a must) and spend your time mastering the site,



when you come back to the office, it is your time to SHOUT!

(but it takes years, too young at 26...)

Great disscussion,



I would like to pose a question to all of you out there.

Fist off, a little about my background.

I am 26 years old and have been a "Jr. Planner" for a mechanical contracting company for about 2 years. My Educational background is Mechanical Engineering. The company had 2 "aged" planners (both with 30+ years of experience in planning) that were gearing up for retirement, and the idea was to bring in a young guy and have him trained by the Senior guys. When the Seinor Planners retired, the young guy will be able to step in seamlessly (I am the young guy)

The company has sent me on Primavera (version 5) training and now I would be the "scheduler" as I am the only one within the company that is fluent with P5.

Now, in the past few years the company is leaning toward promoting older trades workers into planning roles. They get the scope of work, they look at the job, they plan the steps. This plan is given to an estimator which gives the steps time estimates, and in turn is given to me to input in to P5, link/sort/graph/everything that the Managers want.

Now for my question... I am not satisfied with this position and am extrely enthusiastic about "climing the ladder". I want to get the experience in ever aspect of planning construction. Basically I strive to be a "total package" and be knowlegable in everything.

What do you think the best route for me to take to achieve my goal?? The last thing I want is to be a "keyboard jocky" for the rest of my career.



Thanks

Ken Barrett

There is a consensus in general on this topic that Planning is more then being able to use the tools.

I like David B’s comparison with a carpenter who is a wizard with the use of his saw.

Just think what the situation would be if he/she did not understand how to measure and calculate a length or angle of a cut.

This carpenter would perform a wonder job as long there was someone else to mark the timber for him/her.

Don’t you agree?

Daya



How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)



Raf

Daya



How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)



Raf

It’s a great conversation at all. Just wanna to jot down a several statements here. How to be a great planner must have great experiences.

Different company, different project, different people of project team have a different execution. This is more important the way you grew up persistently.

Primavera, MS project, Monte Carlo and Maximo just only software’s, just only tools. But that one is advantage if u can control and expert on these tools.

The success any events are directly proportional to the timely preparation. Just work so hard then we can make our dreams comes true.

David, i agree with you in toto. if you don’t know how to manipulate the software to get your desired output, then ou have a problem. On the other hand, if you don’t know the desired output, but you know how to manipulate the software, you also have a problem. like you sai "pretty competent in all areas".. cheers..

I have been thinking about this recently (see also my post http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=9&Top=40131) and I see software as a tool. What about the analogy with a carpenter… could anyone say they are a carpenter without being able to use a saw? And is the carpenter liable to be a better carpenter if he is highly proficient at using his saw?



My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that I also think it difficult to separate planner/scheduler/keyboard jockey. I don’t think such roles could be carried out in isolation and those who want to practise in our discipline out to be pretty competent in all areas.

Raphael

I still have a few hairs on my head but alas most of them are grey.

I know what you mean and how right you are.

I look up in despair when some planner puts software above knowledge, experience, collaboration and logical thinking. Never the less modern planning software does help do the calculations for the more complex projects, help with comparing different methods, and help with reprints (I would not like to go back to the days when we had to draw the final chart by hand)

However, computers and software are only tools. The planner and his/her clear thinking, (and as you say) talking to colleges and always looking for better ways is the key to success.

"Garbage in Garbage out"

"Gems in Gems out"

Guys



Those of us who have travelled the world for more years than we have hair left years going from project to project, having to cope not only with the whims of the client, the vagaries of people who say they are engineers, site mangers et al and those who know better will have you "do it my way" can claim to be Senior Planners and Schedulers



But you get on and do the Plan without recourse to computers and software, then you get some idea of the hard yakka needed, the depth of understanding of delivery requirements, which WILL always occur regardless of your plan. Completion WILL always occur. But for what cost and time.



Now you are on your way to understanding that all projects have their own life and most of all the politicians in the project most certainly will get the credit for your work.



But you know you are right and perhaps you are now learning that Planning is NOT about being a software jockey.



Primavera certainly doesn’t make you a planner and Primavera do not claim that the software will make you what you are not.



Scheduling too has it’s joys, but unless you know the way the maths works and you know how to create a half decent network through logic and not a Gantt, then you may be on the way.



Project Planning and Scheduling is an intellectual process. Knowing what it is that you are going to Plan and Schedule is paramount.



Some of the postings on this site have made me cry with the stupidity of them. eg "asking what is Resource scheduling about and getting many replies telling them look up a software package. ugh



Back to basics and do it properly on paper first, or if you cannot live in this electronic age without some form of equipment, use a whiteboard. Build the plan with the folk who are going to do the work, who else is going to tell you - the planner how it will be done.



Most of planning and scheduling is done initially on paper then when we know we have the answer the client is expecting, then and only then does it go into the computer.

Then the fun starts in understanding what the software did to your beautiful balanced PLan.



But then that is another story

I think code of ethics plays a major part in solving the problems discussed in this thread. I would suggest the following:



1. For the wannabees - Accept responsibility in performing professional actions only when qualified through training and experience.

2. For the bluffers - Provide professional opinion only when you have adequate knowledge and honest convictions.



Cheers,

Se

Hi guys,



I believe that having a PMP certification for planners, managers is a good way to enhance the quality of our profession. No matter what level you are in your place, being certified will help the industry in the future.



Regards,



Ed

Hi Andy



Ignoring the rest and going back to your original posting, I agree with you 100000%. I have almost 20 years experience so yes I worked on the Dos version (missed) it is my major frustration as Lead planner on my current project I simply can not find planners, I get piles of CV’s of guys that have done a MSP course or a Primavera course but they do not have a clue and he sells himself as a senior and should be a junior at best even with some of them that have 8 years experience.



I am looking at training youngsters now and straight away the PM says send them on a Primavera course, I have refused and want the guy to do it buy hand first and grasp the concept of planning and analysing which is what is lacking.

Hi Charlie,



Don’t get me wrong with my last postings. I do understand your frustration in that part of the world because that’s the reality there. The only point I’m trying to drive at is what evolves the position of planner. My theory is that Project Managers/Construction Managers got to their positions without gaining first the necessary skills. Imagine if all the PM/CM knows their required skills, what will happen to the planning profession, it will diminish because what these PM/CM will do is they will just hire schedulers. If I’m the PM, I don’t want somebody thinking/planning for my project. This is where I think where the gray area lies about this subject.



Going back to your last comment charlie. I know someone who was not hired as PM because of the color of his skin. This guy is very very good, but unfortunately that’s how it works sometimes.



Cheers,

Se

aNDY,



I really dont want to support Charlie for his post, but he must have made this remark as he is working in UAE, where this is a fact. Rules are different for different colours of skin and thats the reason u can find all these europeans as manager only and only european young boys (age < 26) will be engineers.



That might be his frustration, as people with different ethinicity have to struggle hard to go up on the ladder even though efficiency is far better than europeans coming here.



Most of the europeans coming here are either fitter / plumber / mason / carpenter etc. Its very difficult to find technically qualified europeans in this market.



THATS LIFE!!!

Se,



In your post, I agree with you.



It is very common to find white men and native born english speaker occupying position as Project Control Manager or Planning Manager without any fundamental knowledge of there work.



At the end of the day, these managers will hire people from third world countries to do there job and these manager will tell the owner "IM THE MANAGER, SOMEONE HAS TO DO THE WORK FOR ME." Amen, Amen, Amen, Etc., Etc., Etc.,



I believe companies should give prospective candidates with hand on proficiency check in using planning software P3 only since MSP anyone can always become a planner using MSP.



My solution from my other threads is really very useful.



Cheers,



Sensei

Tried the link and it does work.

Interesting article!

My only comment is that he puts planning at the top of the sequence of the process of constructing and before design. This is not possible.How ever, it is a good article to read.

DS

Checked,



It works fine.



Check one more time. It shud work



http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Sched…



Cheers,

Check this link,



Nice article on PLANNING V/s SCHEDULING



http://www.primaveratools.com/tabid/136/itemid/42/Planning-versus-Sched…



Cheers,



Ravi

Clive,



some of the reasons why PM/CM can’t do planning is, either they are lazy and/or stubborn. They moved into that position without gaining first all the necessary skills. Not that they don’t want to do it, but they can’t do it because of the reasons I just mentioned.



IMHO(Dieter, I learned about this in planningplantet in 2002)

Se

Maybe I’ll miss you. But no PP as well, just relax.

Dieter

Hi Andy

Today is the last day before 2,5 weeks of holidays, no internet, no business phone, no business!

Just my wife and me!

Cheers

Dieter

Hi Clive

Thank you for the explanation.

I support your position. In general we "... do the thinking for them, get it down on paper..". I learned that many so-called PM don’t know how to structure their projects or how to plan, who never had a look into the plan, or where I had to make assumptions on the technical conditions for the PAC (Provisional Acceptance Certificate). I also learned that if someone presents big books with too many informations he wants to hide and to betray - or is just ignorant.

In Germany we had a good example: Toll collect (payments for trucks using the highways). The responsible secretary of state proudly presented a contract of 17000!!! pages with the two companies to manage this project, a - by majority state-owned - software house and another big company. Later they almost doubled the time for development and it did cost - as far as I remember - >2bn US$ more than budgeted. But two weeks before ready for start the secretary of state announced that they would start as scheduled - the real start was about two years after this speech. Responsible? Nobody, of course, I had to pay for it with my taxes.

I have a simple vision: just a little professionality on all sides. I’m afraid, it is and will be an illusion. Some kind of a driver’s license for PM, planners, schedulers,.. never will exist.

I need my holidays!

Dieter

Hi Vikas

To your first item: I think it helps me a lot that I have some experience as a PM. Questions can be more direct, to better understand PM’s situation, sometimes not to understand his behaviour, sometimes to imagine what I have done in his situation and asking myself, why he lays down the mines before walking that way. But ok, he’s PM, I support him. He’s responsible.

For your second item: Sometimes it’s like walking on a knife’s blade. We have some professional honour, so we should tell the truth and make PM aware of risks, ...But is it worth to wake up sleeping dogs for some days of negative float where we are sure, we’ll be able to catch them?

Other: As a contractual scheduler some years ago I had to show a big negative float in a project for product development for major customers. I was asked to show a "good" schedule. But as this was against my personal honour, I gave them rights to modify the schedule and told them they may modify the plan but not with my signature. They didn’t show the plan. Result: Of course such a "bad" scheduler was thrown out of the project. But later it was shown that the delay was real, the product not delivered in time. That company went bankrupt with about 3000 redundancies. I’m sure, that today I would act the same way.

In a different project a scheduler just followed PM and always made a schedule according to his wishes. Later, when the delay was obvious, the scheduler was made responsible and thrown out.

If a person lies with the schedules , how he will act in the rest of his life? In Germany we say "After you lied once, never again people will believe you."

Sorry I was a little emotional.

Regards

Dieter



P.S. Se, maybe a stupid question: What does it mean "IMHO".

Well this is the most interesting topic on this forum.



I started my career as a planning cum scheduling engineer with softwares like HPM, Primavera DOS. Then I found myself as Project Manager in years to come.



Today when I start doing updating (not the initial planning) the primavera program the planning engineer within me clashes with the project manager within me.



Practically what happens is that the actual situation on site remains different from what is on my updated resource loaded schedule. The schedule does not depict what i want it to do automatically after honest updating. A lot of manipulation (unethical) is required to show it the way I want it to appear as a project manager on every scheduling date(data date). If such updating is done by another scheduler then I have to tell him what I want the program to depict so that I am in a position to explain it to my bosses as well as client.



The same thing used to happen when I worked as a planning cum scheduling engineer. My boss would always tell me to show things as he wanted because he was accountable to the client for the primavera reports. Client would point to each activity and start asking for explainations. At that time boss would’nt say that primavera reports it like that.



I would like to ask through this forum whether others also experience such situations. Of course an easy answer would be to say that it all happens due to bad logic / bad planning etc etc. But I would expect people to be honest in this regard.

Planning is a Project Manager’s/Construction Manager’s job. What PM/CM needs is a scheduler, someone who will put in paper/electronic format their thought of how they want to execute their project. Problem is, many PM/CM reached their positions without first gaining the necessary tools to manage their project.



IMHO,

Se

Andy,



True, absolutely true!!



And thats when AGE FACTOR comes around to prove urself practically and take care of ur project, but there are exceptions like me :-) (Just kidding)



Cheers,

Hi Andy

Last year I had such a job: I was no. 5 to implement P5 for a company and had to recover one year of not successful implementation work during 6 weeks. It was successfully completed. Most predecessors were "senior", but lacking experience.

Regards

Dieter

Hi Raviraj

Thank you very much for this explanation. I wasn’t aware of this difference. In Germany we use these terms almost as synonyms. "Terminplaner" is the translation for both because in general there is a difference between time- and cost-controlling (latter rather frequently more pie- counting). But in many projects, Terminplaner have to cover financial aspects as well.

Different countries --> different cultures --> best basis for misunderstandings.

By the way, that’s one of the reasons I like this forum that much - to learn from you all.

Regards

Dieter

Hi Dieter,



This is a gist from one of the article I had from past few years. No idea @ author, but its written beautifully.



To start with v will just go through the dictionary meanings first:



According to Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary a scheduler is one who appoints, assigns, or designates for a fixed time. And in the National Association of Women in construction, Construction Dictionary, a scheduler is the person authorized to schedule work or the flow of material pertaining to a project



A scheduler is one who is knowledgeable with the Critical Path Method of scheduling, who understands how to use it and analyze it. He is familiar with all the techniques and practices of proper scheduling. He knows the proper use of

durations, scheduling relationships, lags, constraints, and logic to derive the critical path. He knows about calendars, and code structures, and how to organize a schedule to be a meaningful tool as a report out document for the state of a project. He knows how to update a schedule and how often. He knows how to read plans, specs, and contracts to determine just what all stakeholders expect of his schedule. He knows how to account for and record delays to the schedule and to analyze the impacts of those delays. He knows who to ask and what questions to ask for information leading to the creation of a schedule and its subsequent updates. He is the messenger for the state of the project.



It is also within the scheduler’s scope of work to use and understand the scheduling software programs that are available and in use today.



Typically a scheduler – in his formative years - takes the information developed by others to create a schedule – he is a data entry person. A scheduler can learn all the necessary skills to be a scheduler – the messenger - from classroom instruction and book learning.



PLANNER



In Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary the definition of a planner is – one who acts on or processes the making or carrying out of plans. A planner in construction is the person who creates the plan and figures out how build the

project in the most efficient manner.



A construction planner, as opposed to a scheduler, becomes one not by going to a class or reading about how to do it from a book, but from actual experience out in the field – and lots of it. The more experience at building projects the better the planner and the more experience at building different projects the better the planner. Variety allows for outside of the box thinking. In construction, planners

have to have a full understanding of what it is they are planning to build, where the project is going to be built and the parameters that control that site, the site

conditions themselves in terms of geology and hydrology, the equipment needed to develop the project based on the site conditions, the structural framework of the project and the equipment and manpower needed to construct it, the time it takes to order, fabricate, and deliver long lead equipment items and material for the project, the qualifications of the subcontractors and their ability to perform, man up, and equip their scope of work per the contract, all safety issues, codes, concerns, and practices for a safe working environment, to where all the workers

for the project are going to park their cars and eat their lunch.



Planners are also involved with cost. More so than schedulers because the way buildings or projects are built have huge cost implications.



It can be said that to be an effective scheduler you also need to be a planner, but you can be a planner, and not a scheduler. You can plan how to build a project and not need to know how to input that plan into some scheduling software

program. Naturally to plan you need to understand relationships and sequencing of work and some aspects of scheduling in order to graphically create the plan.

You do have to be able to communicate that plan to a scheduler though so that he can input it. A planner, like a scheduler, is a messenger. He develops the plan and then others usually execute it. To be a truly effective scheduler though, knowing how to plan and the construction process is key to being a professional scheduler and not just another data entry person. As a scheduler, if you do not know the plan and how things go together and in what sequence, you cannot credibly relate to others the impacts of a delay to a schedule and create or come up with some other way to do it to recover lost time.



Cheers,



Ravi

Hi Clive and Andy



Sorry, I am not a youngster. For my opinion the difference between planner and scheduler seems a little artificial. There will be a common sense that without a solid business experience, planning or scheduling is impossible.

But why do you devaluate "keyboard jockeys"? If I’ll need a junior for the team and a KJ will ask, it will depend on his will to learn and then in some years he may be a good planner or even a senior.

As for the situation in Germany: About one year ago, if you asked for a job, the first question was for your age and above 45 or in IT 39, the conversation was immediately stopped, because experience is of no worth. Now it’s booming and companies - and recruiters as well - have to "swallow the toad" - German saying. "Oldies" become hired again. But still in many branches they prefer employees who are able to say: "Yesterday I wasn’t able to write scheduler, today it’s my profession".

Regards

Dieter