LEVELS OF SCHEDULE

Kris,

AACE International has Recommended Practices called [37R-06 SCHEDULE LEVELS OF DETAIL – AS APPLIED IN EPC].  I use this AACE RP in conversation with management, contractors, peers because it puts the entire team on the same understanding. 

In the details you will find close to what most of the users described above.  However, the common message throughout the industry states that Level 3 is the optimal level to perform CPM [Critical Path Method].  Level 3 can be described as the level that has sufficient decomposition in detailed activities to perform CPM.  If you build a Level 4, 5, etc... you can end up with redundant logic, high logic density, merging hot spots, diverging hot spots, aka "noise in your schedule".  The use of the software is fit for purpose.  If you need to track timesheets in your schedule, then CPM is likely not what your after but can use the software to perform your intent.  If you need a true CPM, then don't fall into the trap of more detail the better. 

http://www.advancedplanninganalytics.com/

i have written a new blog post about a different approach on how to generate a more details levels in the schedule without putting a lot of pressure on the planning software

https://datamonkeysite.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/how-to-build-a-level-5-…

Hope you will find it useful

cheers

Mim

Hi Kris,

In addition to the other's comments.

It is actually depends on the purpose you want to established on your schedule.

For me, it could be in any levels, as long as you reach to the point of being the activity is measurable and quantifiable, you may then stop on that level.

Hope this could help.

Thanks.

Clint

Level 1 - Project Title/Name

Level 2 - Sub-project or Phases

Level 3 - Discipline (Design, Civil, MEP etc)

Level 4 - WBS / Major task (e.g. Substructure, Superstructure, Finishes etc.)

Level 5 - Activities/Tasks (Actual tasks for the project with resource allocation for planning, monitoring and tracking purpose)

Jaco,



It is clear to me that a level 1,2,3,4 schedule is not necessarly related to a WBS 1,2,3,4. In looking at your definition of a level 4 schedule where would you put those various task & milestones in a WBS structure that did not have any task? Once you have the level 1,2,3,4 schedule created how do you update % complete on those task?



Don’t get me wrong, I like your definition of a level 1,2,3,4 schedule! If level 4 is a contractors schedule do you simply copy and replace the exsisting schedule every update cycle? Or asked another way how do you incorporate a level 4 schedule into a level 3 schedule? The reason I ask is that if you have exsisting task in level 3 that represents a body of work, how do I intergrate the contractors level 4 schedule with those task



Kelly

Hi there,

Although I completely agree with Bijaya recommendation of WBS activity, I want to state another possibility for these cases. We can introduce only the lowest level of activities as Task type. (level 5 or 4 or whatever it might be as per different approaches and also different project conditions) Then the higher levels would be simply hammocks in which linked to the lower level. For instance if we consider a 4 leveled schedule, level 4 consists of tasks with assigned resources and is used for monitoring by planner; Level 3 would be the hammocks of level 4 as summarized work packages. Level 2 would be hammocks of level 3 as discipline-wise activities (civil, electrical, etc.) and level 2 would be the sub-projects (again hammock of level 3). Then we will have a level 1 schedule representing Project overall bar in addition to the payment/key milestones that should be introduced/linked separately to level 4 tasks.

I suppose if we intend to define all level of schedule as tasks, we virtually duplicated our activities and also we will face problems for updating them regularly. By this way, all the higher levels of hammocks will be updated automatically just by updating the lowest level of tasks without any further effort except for one F9!

Even the tasks in level 4 can be broken down into some steps (just like P3e) which will be considered then as level 5.(maybe out of P3)



Cheers

You have an activity "A". You find that it is better to break down the activity "A" into A1, A2, A3 etc. Normally you will need to break the link in "A" and reassign it again in details level. But if your link at level "A" is correct and you don’t want to link and relink at detail level, there is an easy way to do it.



Change the Activity type for "A" from task to WBS. Both A and its children (A1, A2 etc) should have the same WBS code. When you F9 the programme, you will find that "A" is now a roll up of its children activities.

Hi Alex,



Looking at the two products side by side P3 and Open Plan these are some of the things I like in Open Plan:



1. Heirarchy in the coding structures - allowing me to roll up activities and values by codes;

2. Heirarchy in levels of projects - allows for top down planning starting with Master level activities and then expanding activities to further levels of detail;

3. Resource Breakdown Structures - allows assigning by resource skill or pool of resources;

4. Multi time line gannt charts - enables looking at an entire activity bar but focusing on a certain timeframe(ie given 6 month activity - Looks at the first 2 months on a monthly timescale and then the 3rd month in weekly timescale and the last 2 months back to monthly timescale all on the same gantt chart)

5. separation of time scheduling and resource scheduling - allows looking at a scheduled scheduled dates only and then running a resource loaded schedule and making the comparisons/analysis.

6. Earned Value - Charts showing graph and time value simultanously.

7. Dynamic Calculated storable fields - Similar to an excel spreadsheet - Allowing users to create formulas, store in a field and display this field as a column in the Gannt Chart.



etc. etc..



The above features looks one sided I agree however these are the functionalities that I had trouble with in P3. To be fair some of the above are addressed by P3e, however P3e let go of some of the P3 functionalities.

Hermie,



Thank you for your reply, if you can please help to identify the differents between the two product please. For planner, P3 or Open plan is only a tool, more important is the knowledge. I suggest not to jump ship before you understand the ship you about to jump into, it maybe a sinking ship.



P3 is so widely use in the industry, there must be a reason. Can you please share some of your experiences with the two product.



It will help us to make decision rather than just jump into conclusion of use another software because it cannot do a particular thing what we asking for.



I think in software world, there is lots of features that different people needs and want and no software can cover the lot. If we can list out the can and cant between the product. It will give a clear picture to all planners.



Of course we came across different product every date, and we have to make the decision what exactly we asking for before we buy the product.



Some of the function I love P3 to incorporate like Time location function, better grahic report, unlimited user code ...... the list just go on. ... however, we have to distingish between want and needs.



Regards



Alex

Hi Alex,



Yes I am with Welcom Software. However prior to this, I have been working with primavera products for 15 years. Other users of P3 please comment, I am sure you and I are not the only ones whom have encountered this multi-level issue.

Hermie,



For me your post seem to be a bit favored since you are from Welcom - Open Plan.



If you clarify that I think will give P3 a fair go and to its user.



Alex

Hi Guys - My two bits. The problem here is that P3 is a flat file database. It can do limited level within a project using WBS structures. So what usually happens is that level 1 activities are made. When you try and expand one of the activities to more detail, you have to unlink the relationship to that activity then relink to your expanded level 2 activities.



This is one of my complaints on P3. My suggestion use a different tool. Try Open Plan by Welcom Software, you can do unlimited levels without having to do this unlink/relink thing.



The way to do it in Open Plan is simple. Do a level 1 programme. Then select the activity you want to detail and then name that activity as a Parent task. That’s all you have to do! All the resources/codes/cost get automatically rolled-up.



Regards

Kris



What you can do is make your LVL 4 Activity’s hammocks and then creat new activity below them Or you put a Filter on the LVL 4 Activity’s



The correct way is to replace them. Be Carefull because this will mean more detail & tons of logic. As for your resources if it is different resources you will need to split them. If you have verious Resources per activity why dont you Organise by Resource as well this might also help.



What type of Project is it Maybe their is a easier way. As a matter of interst What is your lvl 4 activity duration & how many activity’s do you have.









Cheers

Hi Kris



No the WBS or the Activity codes have nothing to do with the LVL of the schedule. It is all to do with the detail of the activity’s.



As an example



LVL 1 might have 10 activity’s

Lvl 2 Might have 30 Activity’s

LVL 3 Might have 500 Activity’s

LVL 4 Might have 1500 Actvity’s

Lvl 5 Might have 5 000 Activity’s



It is the detail of the activity that will define the lvl of the schedule.





But as a matter of interest I use the following Act Codes.



PH = Phase

Area = Area

P = Package

S = System

Disc = Discipline

Resp = Responsibility



Then a WBS/CBS system as per original estimate.



Even though I have 6 Different set of codes this does not mean that I have a lvl 6 schedule.





But if you sumarize it should all roll into the lvl 1.



Cheers

Hi Kris.



The answer is no. The differance between the Lvls is the detail LVL of the activity and not the sort / organise.



For Me it Works Like this.



You start of with a Lvl 1 Schedule. Normallay done at a Project OME LVL (+-30 %)This will be no logic based schedule just a quick calc for overall duration.



Then when you do your DFS you will go to a Lvl 2 )+-15%) Schedule

Still no Logic just a bit more detail.



When you start project implementation you start at a LVL 3. (I normally define a lvl 3 a schedule with logic the reason why the schedule first get to logic at lvl 3 is because normally when you do the engineering at this phased the scope is defined sufficiant to do a schedule.



Then a Contractor Schedule becomes my LVl 4 and the progress Mesurement method is the lvl 5.



Well in short you should be able to take an activity in lvl 3 and the deatial of that is the next level.



Example



LVl 1

1) Build a Building

LVL 2

1.1) Engineering

1.2) Procurement

1.3) Construction

LVL 3

1.1.1) Foundation Engineering

1.1.2) Etc

1.2.1) Purchase Rebar

1.2.2) Purchase concrete

1.2.3) Purchase Doors

1.2.4) Etc

1.3.1) Excavation

1.3.2) Cast Foundation

1.3.3) Etc

LVL 4)

1.1.1.1) Soil Investigation

1.1.1.2) Rebar Calc

1.1.1.3) Rebar Schedule



ETC

Hi all

I don’t think there are any standards for the Defining levels in programme. I did check Bristish standards on Project management and couldn’t find out any standard criteria for level allocation.

I usually divide the project in four levels i.e Project Level, Sub project level, Work package level and Task Level.

And as far a monitoring goes , it all depends , Its best to moitor at Task level in order to get realistic picture.

Anil

Hi,



My understanding about the levels of schedule is as follows:



1. There are normally five levels.

2. Levels are based on the level of management and the level of details it contains.

3. Level 1 gives overall picture of the project.This level provides activties at the highest level of WBS,which is usually at project level.The level contains major milestones, Overall duration activties of the project(start and finish of the project). These can be monitored at this level regularly.

4. Level 2 schedule involves summarized or single activities in high level WBS i.e Milestones,Submmittals,design, construction,testing and commissioning.In this level,it is usually shown that when each item starts and finish only, this level does not contains the details e.g.Design item will have start and finish only without any futher breakdown.

5. Level 3 is usually provides reasonable details for the Level 2 schedules. These schedules are used for regular monitoring by the people on the field.

6.Level 4 & 5 schedules provides the greater details than the Level 3 schedules and usually used by the people who actually to he work.These shedules are advisable as these provides no flexibility to the work being carried out and very difficult to be followed.



I hope this can clarify.



Thanks & regards



Dinesh

To me,

Level 1 is contractual milestone dates.

Level 2.

Contains EPC split into discplines.

E - Civil, Structural, Piping, Process etc.

P - Onshore and Offshore.

C - Nearly same as E.

Level 3.

E - Engineering Control List incorporated.

P - Breakdown of Items.

C - Method of Statement of Erection.

Level 4.

Resource loading and actual working version. S-Curve and period performance.

Dear Jimmy,

I am so pleased to be able to contribute to your ability to copy & paste.



With kind regards,



Stuart

[Entire passage deleted by Moderator.]

Kris,



In my experience of complex Process and Industrial Plants, a Level 1 Schedule will only contain basic outline information, such as start dates, completion dates, Milestones, and will have a single bar chart for say, engineering work; another bar chart for equipment purchase and delivery; another bar chart for construction, and another for say, commissioning work. The Level 1 Schedule is often just one or two sheets of A4 incorporated into the Contract documentation, and sometimes is called the Master Schedule.

The Level 1 Schedule will not show the CP.



The Level 2 Schedule is the schedule that the Contractor is required to develop from the Level 1 schedule, (sometimes within 30 days) and it will have the main activities usually based on the WBS. The Level 2 schedule will be expected to show the project’s primary CP.



The Level 3 Schedule - which is usually used at the working level - is sufficiently detailed to show all activities required in the execution of the project, and it will contain the CP and any sub-CPs. The Level 3 Schedule will contain all activities from start to finish of the project.



The Level 4 Schedule will be a further expansion of the Level 3, but often it will only be for a specific part of the project and sometimes only for a specific duration - it will not show the overall duration of the project, but it will focus on a particularly complex area of work, especially where it relates to specialist work. The Level 4 is also used for working with subcontractors.



I hope that this helps,



Stuart



www.rosmartin.com

Dear Kris,



As to your question if Levels of programmes are akin to WBS, of course the answer is "YES"



But what Mr. Oliver and Mr. Daya explained is more of a CONCEPT rather than just a "STRUCTURE". P3 has a function "WBS or Work Breakdown Structure" which you can use doing Levels of Programme. but you can also use "ACTIVITY CODING SYSTEM of P3’ to Categorize your Programme Level. But again Level 1,Level 2, Level 3 .. and so forth Programmes are a general concept and as you can see in Mr. Oliver’s and Mr. Daya’s Illustration is that you area the one to determine the extent of breakdown in each level but you can also see the similarities in both their concept.



High level Management usually use Level 1 or Level 2 Programme where they can see the summary or the over-all picture of the major phases or areas of works.(mostly 4 weeks to several months duration in each activities)



Level 4 or 5 Programmes can be used on site meetings progress monitorings and updates and also in claims or arbitrations (usually 3-4 weeks duration or even lesser durations in each activity).



regards,



Richard

I agree with Mr. Oliver and would just like to add the following:



The main purpose of a level 3 is to determine a critical path. The durations are also used to determine the contractor’s tender/ contractual milestone schedule.



As for the level 4, tell the contractor that activities should be shorter than 5 days long in his schedule.

LEVEL 1 would be the final product, such as Building etc.....



LEVEL 2: Engineering, Procurement, Construction phases



LEVEL 3: Disciplinewise break-down of the LEVEL 2, for example: Construction phase -> Foundation, Structural works,Architectural works, External works, M&E works, Testing&Commissioing etc



LEVEL 4: Further break-down of the LEVEL 3, for example: Architectural works-> Doors/windows, Blockwall, Wall Tile, Floor Tile, Ceiling, Pastering, Painting, etc......





LEVEL 2 or LEVEL 3: Summary of progress at this level required for clien’t submission



LEVEL 4: Summary of progress at this level for our own monitoring purpose(Sub-Contractor’s works etc. where applicable)

There are four main levels as explained by Mr. Oliver.



Level 2 and Level 3 are most commonly used for progress monitoring but it mainly depends upon your requirement that which level you select either 2 or 3.

IMO, I dont believe there is a right or wrong definition.



Generally, I would take Level 1 as a summary containing mainly strategic milestones (Contract Start, 1st Submission of Design Info, Start on Site, 1st delivery of Main Plant etc..)



Level 2 would be a summary by discipline (i.e Civil Design, Mech Design etc)



Level 3 would be a further subdivision of Civil Design (Transormer Bases, Bunding Arrangements etc)



Level 4 would get down to actual measurable tasks or outputs.





As I said no right or wrong answer and a lot depends on your project/client.



The key thing is these are not seperate schedules but all support each other so that the high level can be interrogated to the lower levels of detail, and the resultant effect of delay(or improvement) in one area can be assessed as to the impact on another area.