Thanks for your clarification I will take it as correct with regards to P3. Can you tell me about SureTrak and Digger file comparison? I still understand these were products developed outside Primavera.
Another issue I cannot understand is why after version 3.1 it was never updated again. Was its development dependant exclusively on the minds of Dick and Joel?
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
15 years 9 months
Member for15 years9 months
Submitted by Ian Nicholson on Fri, 2010-04-09 22:18
Rafael, you are wrong about P3s history. It was developed by Dick and Joel in house at Primavera. It was the first commercially successful desktop scheduling tool on the market and captured a large part of the market because it could be deployed on site. It started in DOS and moved to windows in the early 90s.
Then you are correct, for the moment most of us, most General contractors have no choice, we must manage our job with the tools of others.
I believe this is the main reason for many unsuccessful CPMs, is what other blood suckers want not what the Contractor doing the job knows. The end result is that the General Contractor hires an independent CPM consultant and lose control of the tool, now is not only the tool of others but the CPM of another one.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 years
Member for19 years
Submitted by Rodel Marasigan on Wed, 2010-04-07 21:37
I agree with you but to clarify “when I said company dictates” meaning the management which includes Program Managers, Project Controls and other top management. The company cannot dictate but the management can.
Member for
21 years 8 months
Member for21 years8 months
Submitted by Rafael Davila on Wed, 2010-04-07 21:09
If company dictates most probably the leader would be MS Project, unfortunately Contract Requirement dictates.
Most Program Managers recommend Primavera at the expense of the Contractor’s choice because it is convenient for them, is easier for them. They convince the Owner their choice is what is best for them and the Owner follows when approving the specs.
The truth is that this places a great burden on many Contractors whose personnel is experienced on other software, Companies that have invested thousands in training as thousands in the integration of the software with their financial system. Yes hundred of Contractors who work at risk at the whim of a single participant who ironically usually work at no risk, is morally wrong.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 years
Member for19 years
Submitted by Rodel Marasigan on Wed, 2010-04-07 20:22
Primavera still retain the crown as a market leader which includes (P3 and P6.1 - 6.2.1 v7) and like what you mentioned – company dictates and not the end user. Aside from that most of the advertise planner require Primavera knowledge. There are companies still using Microsoft Projects and Open Plan but the problem with Open Plan is very few planners know how to use it.
In addition to Primavera Products History here is another article.
Primavera was founded in May 1983 by: Dick Faris, Joel Koppelman and Les Seskin (who owned a batch entry mainframe scheduling system) (Link Below)
I see a trend from owners not be so picky about the CPM; I have seen more frequently specs that allow the Contractor to select his own management tools.
About specific software seem like most contractors are angry and disappointed at Primavera/Oracle. I see no clear trend about the Primavera substitute, hope many and not a Dinasty. I have even perceived dissatisfaction with Primavera from a few Primavera Partners that occasionally post here.
There was a requirement that latter was abandoned to allow for any software that could generate a database following certain specifications. This I believe was right, but many Program Managers did not like the idea and started pushing for specific software at their convenience.
This would even allow for third party vendors to develop applications for file comparison, forensics and even reporting tools that will be able to work the data from all software that follows the spec.
In no way I can say jobs managed using other than Spider Project Software are wrongly managed, Spider is my choice, you should be able to use software of your own choice.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 years
Member for19 years
Submitted by mimoune djouallah on Wed, 2010-04-07 19:55
About Spider Project the issue is not in the interface, once you learn it is more powerful than any other high end software and even easier. I believe the problem is in the lack of English language literature. Help is no substitute to a good book you can read and follow while working the software. Also help is limited about some tricks and traps I learned with the assistance of Vladimir. Eventually English language books will be available, and here in PP we are lucky to be able to communicate directly to one of the software developers, something you cannot do with the other software. Believe me Vladimir is a good listener.
Here software is not always the contractor’s choice, unfortunately is the opposite, is the Owner who is not to be in control of the means and methods who specify the software, unbelievable, makes no sense at all but convenient for the many Not at Risk Project Managers and Program Managers that suck blood of any Owner that fall into their claws.
Rodel
I did my Google search and could not find the reference about the predecessor of P3 from the Mainframe and DOS era, for sure I remember reading about a P3 DOS version, for sure I remember reading about Primavera SureTrak being bought from another developer. I got the impression also P3 was originally from another developer but cannot substantiate the statement.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 years
Member for19 years
Submitted by Rodel Marasigan on Wed, 2010-04-07 19:13
always so emotional in your answers, unfortunately, i dont decide which software to use, it is the company who decide, not all planners are lucky as you ;)
but outside from work, i keep an eye on spider(although, i hate the user interface ;) and my personal favorite kplato, it is in alpha stage, but i like the idea of opensource (you can see the black box)
best regards
mimoune
Member for
21 years 8 months
Member for21 years8 months
Submitted by Rafael Davila on Wed, 2010-04-07 17:57
Forgot to include SureTrak in the list of products purchased by Primavera, also never really upgraded. Even Digger was developed by another company and either Primavera or Oracle bought it, believe from HST Software. HST still sells Sure Change the native file comparison for SureTrak.
Sorry I don’t have the references but science P3 origins are from the DOS era, prior to any version of Windows, it is difficult to find articles that go that far. I believe there was a mainframe version, so maybe even before DOS era. Well it surprises me P3 is still surviving when Oracle does not support it.
Between dinosaur P3 and dinosaur SureTrak a few million years make no difference, still dinosaurs.
Don’t waste your time learning an already obsolete product that eventually will get you into trouble as more and more people get computers with newer operating systems.
You can try old software like P3 and SureTrak in Microsoft Virtual Machine, butt is a pain in the butt.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 years
Member for19 years
Submitted by mimoune djouallah on Wed, 2010-04-07 17:33
If 64 bit Windows 7 you will have problems and also your coworkers. Better start considering getting rid of P3.
Accept it, P3 was brought by Primavera from other developer and never really upgraded it in decades, then again they brought P3e the precursor of P6 and after years fighting with the bugs Oracle brought the product. Now P6 uses an external database that is a monster because of how many megabytes it takes, a monster to install, and still full of bugs. Many are disappointed and frustrated with it.
Make sure you switch to software capable of displaying the correct value of float after resource leveling.
I face problem in taking printouts of layouts in PDF format .P3 Automatically gets closed .In some case,the closed pro-gramme cannot be opened again .It is better to have back up i trust
I tried that a few times and it didn’t make any difference. I have just discovered that a particular Layout has corrupted my plan, thankfully I have made several back-ups.
thanks again
Jon
Member for
16 years 7 months
Member for16 years7 months
Submitted by Gary Whitehead on Wed, 2010-03-31 10:01
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Ian,
Thanks for your clarification I will take it as correct with regards to P3. Can you tell me about SureTrak and Digger file comparison? I still understand these were products developed outside Primavera.
Another issue I cannot understand is why after version 3.1 it was never updated again. Was its development dependant exclusively on the minds of Dick and Joel?
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
15 years 9 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Rafael, you are wrong about P3s history. It was developed by Dick and Joel in house at Primavera. It was the first commercially successful desktop scheduling tool on the market and captured a large part of the market because it could be deployed on site. It started in DOS and moved to windows in the early 90s.
Ian
http://www.emerald-associates.com
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Rodel,
Then you are correct, for the moment most of us, most General contractors have no choice, we must manage our job with the tools of others.
I believe this is the main reason for many unsuccessful CPMs, is what other blood suckers want not what the Contractor doing the job knows. The end result is that the General Contractor hires an independent CPM consultant and lose control of the tool, now is not only the tool of others but the CPM of another one.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
Hi Rafael,
I agree with you but to clarify “when I said company dictates” meaning the management which includes Program Managers, Project Controls and other top management. The company cannot dictate but the management can.
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Rodel and Mimmoune,
If company dictates most probably the leader would be MS Project, unfortunately Contract Requirement dictates.
Most Program Managers recommend Primavera at the expense of the Contractor’s choice because it is convenient for them, is easier for them. They convince the Owner their choice is what is best for them and the Owner follows when approving the specs.
The truth is that this places a great burden on many Contractors whose personnel is experienced on other software, Companies that have invested thousands in training as thousands in the integration of the software with their financial system. Yes hundred of Contractors who work at risk at the whim of a single participant who ironically usually work at no risk, is morally wrong.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
Hi Mimoune,
Primavera still retain the crown as a market leader which includes (P3 and P6.1 - 6.2.1 v7) and like what you mentioned – company dictates and not the end user. Aside from that most of the advertise planner require Primavera knowledge. There are companies still using Microsoft Projects and Open Plan but the problem with Open Plan is very few planners know how to use it.
In addition to Primavera Products History here is another article.
Primavera was founded in May 1983 by: Dick Faris, Joel Koppelman and Les Seskin (who owned a batch entry mainframe scheduling system) (Link Below)
A Brief History Of Scheduling
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
mimoune
I see a trend from owners not be so picky about the CPM; I have seen more frequently specs that allow the Contractor to select his own management tools.
About specific software seem like most contractors are angry and disappointed at Primavera/Oracle. I see no clear trend about the Primavera substitute, hope many and not a Dinasty. I have even perceived dissatisfaction with Primavera from a few Primavera Partners that occasionally post here.
There was a requirement that latter was abandoned to allow for any software that could generate a database following certain specifications. This I believe was right, but many Program Managers did not like the idea and started pushing for specific software at their convenience.
This would even allow for third party vendors to develop applications for file comparison, forensics and even reporting tools that will be able to work the data from all software that follows the spec.
In no way I can say jobs managed using other than Spider Project Software are wrongly managed, Spider is my choice, you should be able to use software of your own choice.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
Rodel and Rafael
from your daily experience, what are people using now, did you see any particular trend !?
best regards
mimoune
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Mimoune ,
Guess like P3 I will never get an upgrade.
About Spider Project the issue is not in the interface, once you learn it is more powerful than any other high end software and even easier. I believe the problem is in the lack of English language literature. Help is no substitute to a good book you can read and follow while working the software. Also help is limited about some tricks and traps I learned with the assistance of Vladimir. Eventually English language books will be available, and here in PP we are lucky to be able to communicate directly to one of the software developers, something you cannot do with the other software. Believe me Vladimir is a good listener.
Here software is not always the contractor’s choice, unfortunately is the opposite, is the Owner who is not to be in control of the means and methods who specify the software, unbelievable, makes no sense at all but convenient for the many Not at Risk Project Managers and Program Managers that suck blood of any Owner that fall into their claws.
Rodel
I did my Google search and could not find the reference about the predecessor of P3 from the Mainframe and DOS era, for sure I remember reading about a P3 DOS version, for sure I remember reading about Primavera SureTrak being bought from another developer. I got the impression also P3 was originally from another developer but cannot substantiate the statement.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
I found this article from Pinnacle about Primavera Product History(link below).
Primavera Product History
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
oh Rafael
always so emotional in your answers, unfortunately, i dont decide which software to use, it is the company who decide, not all planners are lucky as you ;)
but outside from work, i keep an eye on spider(although, i hate the user interface ;) and my personal favorite kplato, it is in alpha stage, but i like the idea of opensource (you can see the black box)
best regards
mimoune
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
mimoune
Forgot to include SureTrak in the list of products purchased by Primavera, also never really upgraded. Even Digger was developed by another company and either Primavera or Oracle bought it, believe from HST Software. HST still sells Sure Change the native file comparison for SureTrak.
Sorry I don’t have the references but science P3 origins are from the DOS era, prior to any version of Windows, it is difficult to find articles that go that far. I believe there was a mainframe version, so maybe even before DOS era. Well it surprises me P3 is still surviving when Oracle does not support it.
Between dinosaur P3 and dinosaur SureTrak a few million years make no difference, still dinosaurs.
Don’t waste your time learning an already obsolete product that eventually will get you into trouble as more and more people get computers with newer operating systems.
You can try old software like P3 and SureTrak in Microsoft Virtual Machine, butt is a pain in the butt.
Best regards,
Rafael
Member for
19 yearsRE: Relationship Lines
"P3 was brought by Primavera from other developer and never really upgraded it in decades" !?
Rafael, are you sure !?
Member for
21 years 8 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Jonathan,
P3, a Dinosaur on a new machine?
If 64 bit Windows 7 you will have problems and also your coworkers. Better start considering getting rid of P3.
Accept it, P3 was brought by Primavera from other developer and never really upgraded it in decades, then again they brought P3e the precursor of P6 and after years fighting with the bugs Oracle brought the product. Now P6 uses an external database that is a monster because of how many megabytes it takes, a monster to install, and still full of bugs. Many are disappointed and frustrated with it.
Make sure you switch to software capable of displaying the correct value of float after resource leveling.
Member for
16 years 11 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Hi to all
I face problem in taking printouts of layouts in PDF format .P3 Automatically gets closed .In some case,the closed pro-gramme cannot be opened again .It is better to have back up i trust
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Relationship Lines
Try to use the PFXW.exe (Project File Recovery Program.
It is usually located on this folder C:\P3WIN\P3PROGS.
Maybe it will help.
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Thanks Gary,
I tried that a few times and it didn’t make any difference. I have just discovered that a particular Layout has corrupted my plan, thankfully I have made several back-ups.
thanks again
Jon
Member for
16 years 7 monthsRE: Relationship Lines
Jon,
Try pressing F3.
Cheers,
G