MS Project & P3

Dear Chris,



Your problem is critical and I feel sorry for Your situation :-(. I want to help you with some arguments. I am from Poland and in simmilar situation I see only two advantages ... of MSproject: 1. first is zero knowledge of user in english langage ;-) because MS Project exist in our national language (P3 has only language names of printouts, not menus) - but this case is not related with you situation of course :-)) 2. second possible problem is waste of money (sorry) because P3 has greater price than MSP BUT (!) we have SureTrak with same price and simmilar features (simmilar fo P3, of course). These disadvantages are not exist in You firm :-)))



so P3 have only advantages, specially that Your boss is able to use features of Concentric Project Management System with P3 and SureTraks!!! It is value for the firm. Meybe P3 have to big power if we are not able to use it BUT this features are ready o use in simple form. I don’t know detail "blames" directed to P3 but it is missinformation of boss... In the new version of P3 (PE) we have excellent graphics (specially improved Bar chart with better dependencies). If this machine is too heavy - Your boss can buy Primavera Contractor (price of MSP) with some new capabilities. Your boss must to rething all, slowly and accurately.



NOTE! You are from railawy branch of production, so You must to know that in MS Project we are not able to model ladder links (double linking of two tasks in parallel realisation). This aspect of modelling is important if we want to make a schedule of "linear works" like a pipeline, railway or road. P3/ST and other systems have this option so we can make solid schedules.



Good Luck from Poland :-))

Overall comments are that P3 is much better than MS project with respect to graphics, reports, recource and cost whereas MS Project is limited only for specific purpose i.e bar charts, pert chart and some graphics.

Dear Daya,

I don’t know any example of successful construction management with MS Project. It just has not necessary features.

Of course I would be glad to discuss Spider Project in PP forum. I am afraid that it is not known for most PP members because it is mostly used by Russian, Ukrainian and other CIS companies. But I think that its features may be of interest for professional project planners in other countries. Most problems discussed in PP forums are solved in Spider Project.

duplicate posting[deleted]

Dear Vladimir,



I agree with you that MS Project is not a better bet in managing complext projects, but based on the given choice to Chris, he can go for either P3 or MSP, if their management is too concern about money(just for an example), what he can do?. He has to somehow manage with MSP, so i said it is not so easy to manage things with MSP.



bye the bye, can we start a separate thread for Spider? so that all our pp members can have a chance to see the use of spider in complext project management.



Best Regards



Daya

Dear Daya,

your words "managing of your complex program/project using MS Project will not be so easy" is a huge understatement. I think that it is impossible and unfortunately it will become obvious too late.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Dear Chris,



You can advise your management to set up P3 at site, but you need to spend more money to buy p3 (individual licenses). But MS Project would be the best alternative moneywise but managing of your complex program/project using MS Project will not be so easy.



Regards



Daya

I avoid Projects like the plague.



For complex construction projects it is not adequate. I close my eyes and hope that the scheduling and total float is correct.

Well Chris I guess almost everybody agrees MS Project is no good.

Also keep in mind it does not matter if MS Project is capable or correct as file conversion between MS Project and Primavera products is not 100% equivalent.

I will go further by advising against the use of P3e or P3e/c unless you need enterprise stuff. It is the only Primavera product I dislike.

Keep using the combination of P3 and Suretrak. But beware, Suretrak and P3 are not 100% equivalent to each other. Probably you can get 100% if from Surtrak to P3 but not from P3 to Suretrak as Suretrak cannot read all database fields the same way as P3 does. The differences are numbered in Suretrak ’s manual. If you will be using Suretrak I would recommend using Suretrak to generate the schedules to be updated with Suretrak. No problem with Suretrak schedules to be updated with P3.

Probably Primavera with P3e and Contractor is finally realizing for the need of two way and 100% compatibility between a stand alone product and a multiuser product, but "make no mistake" - with the wrong products.

Rafael,



MS Project does not have many features necessary for construction simulating, has poor leveling algorithms and is not capable of scheduling vary large projects typical for construction industry. It may be useful in IT where the projects are relatively small and the number of resources is not large.



P3 and P3e are much more powerful.



You may also try our Spider Project - PM software that is most popular in Russia. It includes many useful features that you will not find in any other PM software - resource constrained schedule optimization, work with physical volumes and resource productivities, shift simulation, risk simulation, cost components, etc. And it can export projects to P3e and MS Project formats and import too.

In Russia it used by major construction companies as well as in Ministry of Defence, Banks, Oil and Gas, Shipbuilding, Metallurgy, Retail, Telecommunications, Software Development, etc. If you want to try it download its Demo from http://www.spiderproject.ru/spider_e.php



In any case make a list of features that you consider as necessary and another list with the features that are desirable. Use these lists for estimating if the software may fit to your needs. And try these features before deciding what to buy.

Vladimir,

Sciforma is well known in France thanks to the french company responsible for its localization and distribution, a small company solely dedicated to project management consulting and tools.

This company has subs in Germany and Switzerland, and works also well in Belgium.

I don’t know why the software is not popular in the UK and the other european countries.

Windows based PS8 or full HTML PSNext are much better tools than MSP 2003 Pro or 2003 Server respectively, and PSNext is a one-only product, much easier to implement and to use than the hybrid MSP.

I will try Spider and let you know that I feel.

Alexandre

Alexandre,

Sciforma is popular in France, Spider Project - in Russia and other CIS countries. Most planners are trying to use the same product as the others around them and I see that in the countries that are represented in this forum these packages are not known. I understand why it is so about Spider Project - we did not promote it abroad, but I don’t understand why Sciforma is not known too. I tried Scitor many years ago and found it interesting though its resource leveling algorithms are not good. In any case it is highly competitive if to compare with MS Project and should be considered as an alternative. What do you think about the reason why it is not discussed?

Vladimir

I know MS Project is no good, but P3, an excellent option, is no longer been updated and eventually will have problems with the Windows operating system.

P3e I believe is a disaster; even MS Project is a better choice for 95%of the construction industry. Anywhere in the internet you can look for the statistics on the composition of the industry, volume of work, number of employees, size of jobs...

It is our chice, a wrong chice will bring us back a few years.

Hey guys,

it’s amazing that you never mention Sciforma (ex-Scitor)Project Scheduler! this MSP-sized application is n°2 here in France with about 30% of market share; I prefer very much PS to MSP, as it is much easier and safer and more logical to use than MSP, always a lot of functionalities ahead from MSP.

Be careful with MSP if you mix several calendars, you will get a real mess: I once tried to share resources between two projects, the 1st one with a mon-fri calendar, the 2nd with a sat-sun calendar; everything looked good until I had the same people working during the same 7 day sequence on both project (let’s say writing a field report mon-fri and refurbishing the house sat-sun); much too complicated for MSP.

If you want a rock-solid stand alone app, not too expensive, easy to get into, move to Project Scheduler.

Alexandre

By Jove, it’s true! You can now set different calenders for different tasks.



I personally prefer Suretrak, but where I work they insist on MSP, so I have to use it.



Glad to see this has been added.



GC

Rafael,

I don’t think that MS Project is fit for managing construction projects. In particular this package has problems with resource management features.

Probably it is about time to accept MS Project as an alternative to the combination of P3 and Suretrak to ensure compatibility with the latest windows operating systems, until the industry finds a true alternative.

Primavera’s option of P3e/c and Contractor wont fit 95% of construction contractor’s who want a simple stand alone application at the jobsite coexisting with a network application at the main office, easy to install and maintain. Primavera Contractor’s limit on 750 activities make it a no no, in addition to other issues that complicate things very rapidly.

You can do that with MS Project 2000 and above too

Regarding MSP, one thing I ran into that I did not like was that MSP cannot use more than one calender on a project. Using Suretrak you can assign a different calender to different tasks.



Realistically, some tasks can run on a 6 day week, some on just 5, etc.



GC

This is very interesting

The original issue is the master schedule is running in P3 and should the sub-project running in MSP/Suretrak??

We are not talking about whether MSP can handle sub-project or not. The conversion between the two (P3 and MSP) and the way import and export is concern. I suggest that either use P3 and suretrak together or Just MSP.

If the contract requirement is P3, then the best is using suretrak.



The way MSP2000 progress/schedule project is very different from P3. I am not sure with MSP2003. Again the biggest issue is conversion.



Good Luck



Alex

Ronald and Keven,

MS Project does authorize negative float, since the beginning.

Interesting! Keven, what you are describing is negative float. If occurs when a constraint forces an activity to finish earlier than the current CPM calculations would allow for. This is a common condition in construction.



Are you saying the MSP does not allow for negative float? I had not heard that before.

Yes, this is a "pro domo" plea; they compare MSP to P3 with the idea that P3 is right and MSP wrong; hopefully, the real situation is not so easy.

There are some major flaws in the presentation. Read with caution. i.e. an early finish date with a date later than the late finish date...should never happen and wouldn’t and didn’t in MS Project

Chris



This topic was covered in this discussion thread:



Topic 955



Each product has its advantages and disadvantages. I would suggest you should do a pilot using Microsoft Project and see if it meets all your requirements. There are a lot of other products available on the market which may be a better fit than either of these. But as we all know MSP and to a lesser extent P3 both have a good market penetration and experienced people are usually available for both.



In Australia any construction company that is serious about critical path scheduling does not use Microsoft Project and most use either SureTrak or P3. But the issue here is that both these products have an old architecture and the upgrade path is still not that clear to people like myself. P3e/c is too complex for the average site engineer and Primavera Contractor has been released with what I am lead to understand is a restriction of 750 on the number of activities the schedule will manage. Australia construction companies manage their projects in a single project environment and do not yet integrate the time schedule and costs. Some construction companies in Australia are now looking at ASTRA Power Project which I understand has a good market penetration in the UK, this may be a better fit for you.



MSP2003 has now got some neat features but in my opinion does not yet provide the basic functions that construction schedulers require.



Paul E Harris

Eastwood Harris Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia

Planning and Scheduling Book Publishers, Training & Consulting

www.eh.com.au

MS Project can handle this, especially in Project Professional 2003 run with SharePoint Team Services and Project Server 2003 (the enterprise project management suite). I use 2002 and look forward to upgrading to 2003 and have worked with Project 2000 as well. You should have no trouble with MS Project if using the whole suite and there is a Project newsgroup and developer newsgroup for project that are excellent and can provide much information to assist you in getting started.



Kevin W Flanagan, PMP

.................please try to convince your boss to use P3 only, I think MS project cannot cope with this situation...........since in P3, you may keep all these projects as sub-projects, updating will be very easy for your master project.



Greetz