Yes, I totally agree with you, software is or should be secondary in the recruitment of planners. However, as you have suggested and Mike earlier agrees, some sectors/clients of the UK Construction Industry have aligned themselves with Primavera, in particular I think the ‘heavy-side’; rail, petro-chem and highways.
As they have to have Primavera planners, and in UK I think those up to speed are relatively few, so their advertisements are more likely to state P5/P6 planners are required. Most advertisements, in my experience, outside of those sectors tend not to be so specific about software. I think therefore that the paradox is because Primavera planners are relatively few those who do need them have to specify that and so it does appear that they are in great demand whereas in the majority of the UK construction industry that just isn’t so.
The CIOB survey (http://www.ciob.org.uk/filegrab/TM_report_full_web.pdf?ref=880) suggested that 21% of participants used Primavera etc and 25% Powerproject etc. Personally I question the veracity of that data – that survey also says that 52% use MS Project and anyone who is involved in the UK Construction Industry knows from experience that is just not the case. My own survey (Analysis Paralysis, (2007) 23 Const. L.J. No. 6) showed the most frequently used software was Powerproject 65%, followed by Primavera 17% with MS Project at 8%.
On purely numerical terms then, even taking the CIOB data, it would suggest that there ought to be more opportunities for planners who can use Powerproject.
Thanks for your comments I was not trying to say that Primavera was better than powerproject. I just added some personal prefference. I agree that in most cases Primavera is overcomplicated and too expensive for most construction planning. In fact I would say that P6 has moved backward from P3 in some areas of functionality.
The main point of my post was to answer the original question aboutlack of opportunity for powerproject users.
My point being that if you can plan then you can do it using any software, although you do have to learn how to use it, the principles are the same. A bit like changing from a right hand drive automatic car to a left hand drive manual.
I am not offended but I never quite trust statements such as "feel more consistent", what is needed is some objectivity when making such broad statements. It reminds me a little of … an impressionistic rather than a calculated and rational assessment is not sufficient ….
We have had this type of discussion many times here before (see here for instance: http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=11&Top=2917). As far as I am aware the results of independent tests and surveys that I have seen show that Powerproject out performs Primavera every time (let me know if you know of any independent data that says to the contrary).
Similarly, as you are involved in UK Building Works, I am sure you will also recognise that in our industry Powerproject is the most popular project managements software around, and it cost a quarter of the cost Primavera.
I have to use whatever software comes into our office, so I regularly use Powerproject, Primavera and MS Project and, in my humble opinion, Primavera is a pig to use, an unwieldy beast for use on discrete projects. One of my major criticisms of Planning Planet is that is the de facto Primavera helpdesk. Just have a look how many pages are taken up by ‘how do I’ type questions, they overspill in to every category – maybe that is an indication of how unfriendly the software is (or how expensive training is?).
On the subject of training maybe the reason why tasks and bars in Powerproject do not always move as you think should when pressing the F9 key is because you have not checked the reschedule scope and options and are just expecting the reschedule to mimic what Primavera does? Remember also, in Powerproject some options that affect rescheduling can be switched on or off for individual tasks not just globally as in Primavera.
Regards
David
Member for
24 years 4 months
Member for24 years5 months
Submitted by Andrew Pearce on Fri, 2009-07-10 10:25
Speaking as someone who originally learnt computer aided techniques in 1973 on company written software, moving to my first commercial application Pertamster in the late 1980’s then on to P3 in 1996, power project in 1998, P6 in 2006 and now back to power project. I can confirm its not the software that is important.
They all do more or less the same thing but in different ways.
I may offend a lot of power project users when I say this but I do feel that Primavera products "feel more consistant" when scheduling the programme. I find sometimes that tasks and bars in powerproject do not allways move as they should when pressing the F9 key.
I would suggest that Primavera is generally specified when the project planning requirements include a lot of resourcing, labour, cost material etc. in this area it is more stable in performance and flexible in output.
If you understand the principles of planning and network analysis you should (with a little guidance) be able to drive any type of planning software.
i recently attended the product presentation/Seminar of Asta Powerproject last thursday presented by Mr. Andrew Williard, Professional Services Director, Asta UK office at CADDEMIRATES Conference hall office here in the Dubai. A quick one hour presentation of the softwares flexibility and user friendly tools were appreciated.
Cadd Emirates is the local distributor here in Dubai.
There were listed High Profile contractors and project managers already use/licensed to Asta according to them.
Its not the software thats the key, its the Planner/Analyst.
I firmly believe that if you cannot do your job without Primavera/Asta/Artemis/MSP, et al, then you need to have a look at your basic skill set.
Mike has already said that hes a builder who can plan, probably without the software too, I think that present company included, the majority of Planners & Analysts can, but I am getting really annoyed with P3 jockeys, claiming to be Planners and chruning our crap on a system they barely know without the fore-thought of a planner or the analytical view of an analyst.
To me there really is no difference in software, we plan, the software presents our thoughts and the internal database catalogues the activities and resources. Obviously Im making this statement today, in the world of Mr. Gates MS Windows and GUI-type software.
Its unfortunate that HR staff ask what systems? without knowing that, today, a real Planner will be able to do the job anyway.
PowerProject is the software of choice for building contractors in th UK.
When you get into railway and petrochem the shift is towards the p5 and p6.
If you have experience in the relevant field that is requiring p5 - p6 then apply for it and say you will need a little time to get up to speed in the new software.
When I am faced with a p3 programme in delay analysis I convert it to Powerproject v 10 - do the work and then convert it back.
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Andrew and Bill (the original poster)and all
Ah… okay… back to the original topic…
Yes, I totally agree with you, software is or should be secondary in the recruitment of planners. However, as you have suggested and Mike earlier agrees, some sectors/clients of the UK Construction Industry have aligned themselves with Primavera, in particular I think the ‘heavy-side’; rail, petro-chem and highways.
As they have to have Primavera planners, and in UK I think those up to speed are relatively few, so their advertisements are more likely to state P5/P6 planners are required. Most advertisements, in my experience, outside of those sectors tend not to be so specific about software. I think therefore that the paradox is because Primavera planners are relatively few those who do need them have to specify that and so it does appear that they are in great demand whereas in the majority of the UK construction industry that just isn’t so.
The CIOB survey (http://www.ciob.org.uk/filegrab/TM_report_full_web.pdf?ref=880) suggested that 21% of participants used Primavera etc and 25% Powerproject etc. Personally I question the veracity of that data – that survey also says that 52% use MS Project and anyone who is involved in the UK Construction Industry knows from experience that is just not the case. My own survey (Analysis Paralysis, (2007) 23 Const. L.J. No. 6) showed the most frequently used software was Powerproject 65%, followed by Primavera 17% with MS Project at 8%.
On purely numerical terms then, even taking the CIOB data, it would suggest that there ought to be more opportunities for planners who can use Powerproject.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Hi Andrew
I would rather drive a smooth automatic version of PowerProject than a manual shift with no synchromesh P3.
And yes I can drive both.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
David/Mike,
Thanks for your comments I was not trying to say that Primavera was better than powerproject. I just added some personal prefference. I agree that in most cases Primavera is overcomplicated and too expensive for most construction planning. In fact I would say that P6 has moved backward from P3 in some areas of functionality.
The main point of my post was to answer the original question aboutlack of opportunity for powerproject users.
My point being that if you can plan then you can do it using any software, although you do have to learn how to use it, the principles are the same. A bit like changing from a right hand drive automatic car to a left hand drive manual.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Hi David
Its good to have you back on the forum.
The fact that there a relatively few "How do I " threads on the PowerProject forum is also indicative.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Andrew
I am not offended but I never quite trust statements such as "feel more consistent", what is needed is some objectivity when making such broad statements. It reminds me a little of … an impressionistic rather than a calculated and rational assessment is not sufficient ….
We have had this type of discussion many times here before (see here for instance: http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=11&Top=2917). As far as I am aware the results of independent tests and surveys that I have seen show that Powerproject out performs Primavera every time (let me know if you know of any independent data that says to the contrary).
Of course, like any software, Primavera also has faults and can be a bit flaky. Take a look here, http://www.astadev.com/democentre/asta-powerproject/compare-with-primav… to see what Asta has to say on the subject (not an independent view!).
Similarly, as you are involved in UK Building Works, I am sure you will also recognise that in our industry Powerproject is the most popular project managements software around, and it cost a quarter of the cost Primavera.
I have to use whatever software comes into our office, so I regularly use Powerproject, Primavera and MS Project and, in my humble opinion, Primavera is a pig to use, an unwieldy beast for use on discrete projects. One of my major criticisms of Planning Planet is that is the de facto Primavera helpdesk. Just have a look how many pages are taken up by ‘how do I’ type questions, they overspill in to every category – maybe that is an indication of how unfriendly the software is (or how expensive training is?).
On the subject of training maybe the reason why tasks and bars in Powerproject do not always move as you think should when pressing the F9 key is because you have not checked the reschedule scope and options and are just expecting the reschedule to mimic what Primavera does? Remember also, in Powerproject some options that affect rescheduling can be switched on or off for individual tasks not just globally as in Primavera.
Regards
David
Member for
24 years 4 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Speaking as someone who originally learnt computer aided techniques in 1973 on company written software, moving to my first commercial application Pertamster in the late 1980’s then on to P3 in 1996, power project in 1998, P6 in 2006 and now back to power project. I can confirm its not the software that is important.
They all do more or less the same thing but in different ways.
I may offend a lot of power project users when I say this but I do feel that Primavera products "feel more consistant" when scheduling the programme. I find sometimes that tasks and bars in powerproject do not allways move as they should when pressing the F9 key.
I would suggest that Primavera is generally specified when the project planning requirements include a lot of resourcing, labour, cost material etc. in this area it is more stable in performance and flexible in output.
If you understand the principles of planning and network analysis you should (with a little guidance) be able to drive any type of planning software.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Hi David
Please return the complements to Ian.
Why not get him on PP
Best regards
Mike Testro
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
By the way Mike, Ian Dunbar says hello!!
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Mike,
Youve reflected what I have been saying for a number of years.
Brain first, software second.
GUI = Graphic User Interface...e.g. Windows, not MSDos, Artemis Views, not 6000
Anything I can do to further the Analyst/Planner/Scheduler argument, please ask.
David.
Member for
18 years 3 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
i recently attended the product presentation/Seminar of Asta Powerproject last thursday presented by Mr. Andrew Williard, Professional Services Director, Asta UK office at CADDEMIRATES Conference hall office here in the Dubai. A quick one hour presentation of the softwares flexibility and user friendly tools were appreciated.
Cadd Emirates is the local distributor here in Dubai.
There were listed High Profile contractors and project managers already use/licensed to Asta according to them.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Hi David
I am part of a CIOB work group putting together a guide to best practice in contruction time management.
An inordinant ammount of committee time has been spent in deciding on the definition of Planner and Scheduler.
In the end it came down to:
Planner - the person who can build the project.
Scheduler - the person who can put the planners plan into the software.
A Planner can aslo be a Scheduler.
A Scheduler can never be a planner.
By the way - what is GUI-Type software?
Hi R.
Take a look at the PEO website for the full results of the software survey - both from the UK and worldwide.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Member for
20 years 4 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Bill/Mike,
Its not the software thats the key, its the Planner/Analyst.
I firmly believe that if you cannot do your job without Primavera/Asta/Artemis/MSP, et al, then you need to have a look at your basic skill set.
Mike has already said that hes a builder who can plan, probably without the software too, I think that present company included, the majority of Planners & Analysts can, but I am getting really annoyed with P3 jockeys, claiming to be Planners and chruning our crap on a system they barely know without the fore-thought of a planner or the analytical view of an analyst.
To me there really is no difference in software, we plan, the software presents our thoughts and the internal database catalogues the activities and resources. Obviously Im making this statement today, in the world of Mr. Gates MS Windows and GUI-type software.
Its unfortunate that HR staff ask what systems? without knowing that, today, a real Planner will be able to do the job anyway.
Davie.
Member for
20 years 2 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Mike,
It seems you dont have marketing plan for the Middle East, especially Dubai, construction capital of the world as noted here in PP.
Regards,
R. Catalan
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Asta Users - Lack of opportunities
Hi Bill
PowerProject is the software of choice for building contractors in th UK.
When you get into railway and petrochem the shift is towards the p5 and p6.
If you have experience in the relevant field that is requiring p5 - p6 then apply for it and say you will need a little time to get up to speed in the new software.
When I am faced with a p3 programme in delay analysis I convert it to Powerproject v 10 - do the work and then convert it back.
Good luck & best regards
Mike Testro