Management vs Leadership?

McArthur a Philippine hero? I don’t think so. Yes he did promise that he shall return so he did. With McArthur or without McArthur, the Americans will return to the Philippines because the Americans needed to clear the way going to Tokyo and to protect Australia. This is the same reason why they they pulverized first the Japs in Papua New Guinea, Iwo Jima, the Philippines and other small islands and also to minimize as much as possible American casualties. The strategy is not to engage the enemy in front and at the back at the same time.



IMHO,

Se

Hello Charlie,



How are you, hope your’re doing well. Your Post#33 a bit hitting below the Belt, you know there are some of our Co-members might be hit. Please try to be considerable.



This Forum i think is not meant for History this is meant for today and tomorrow that is why we are called PLANNER.



Regards,



Jerry

Clive,



I was interested in Charlie’s post #33, it seems very confused, but he obviously has a very high opinion of Douglas MacArthur. However, he does seem to think bravery equates to leadership; it does not. A brave leader may be useful in wartime but if he’s more brave than leader he’ll end up getting people killed.



Douglas MacArthur could be cited as just such an example, although I don’t really think so as he didn’t show his face back in the Philippines until Wendell Fertig had all but beaten the Japanese with the guerrilla force he set up.



Charlie then goes on to give some rather confused thoughts on managers and management, apparently believing that you can inherit it. He then goes on to tell us that bravery and leadership are in the genes. Not quite correct, what most people think of as bravery is a reflex conditioned by the situation and training, whilst leadership is one aspect or function of management.



Now we come to the really silly bit where Charlie has a bit of a rant against homosexuals and transvestites, apparently believing that they are incapable of managing, leading or being brave. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, as Charlie regularly discriminates against people because of their race or nationality; but it doesn’t make it acceptable, and if Charlie continues to do this I will make a formal complaint to PP Admin to have him removed permantly from the forum.



Chris Oggham

Hitler,

A scoundrel in history, but also one of the most success full leaders & managers ever in modern history.

Taking away the obvious hurt he imposed and the regime he implemented, he did have both qualities you are all talking about. Even if they were used for the wrong reasons !!!

Clive,



I know you are in your twiligth zone, maybe no need for you to find a hero since now you know that the hero is in you (as per Mariah Carrey song HERO).



I did anoyed me when you say negative about my idol. Just the same, you are free to expoound your ideas and understanding.



But when i was in my teens i read the book GENERAL DOUGLAS MACARTHUR AMERICAN CAESAR. He was my hero. I did strive to be the best, to be the top most. I did not achieve it, a lot of people are better than me.



But, BRAVERY I HAD



and that is also leadership.



YES WE HAVE MANAGER



Are they brave to lead????????????????????



Manager and management theory can be learned, can be acquried by appointment, by political connection, by bribery to get the appointment, or by inheritance,



BUT LEADERHIP and BRAVERY is in the genie, it is through process from childhood to teens to junior position until senior position.



A HOMO as in homo sapien or Transvite as practice by some PP member can be a manager but it can never lead, nor bravery, no and never, it can never lead, specially in the man’s world of construction project.



so Leadership is very important.



Sensei,

Successful Project Management Consultant

IN addition,



General Douglas MacArthur is not an ordinary man. He was born leader.



Is leadership a born trait or can leadership be acquired??!!!



In his comeback trail to liberate Philippines, MacArthur made it a point to know tidal information of islands, this is very important because MacArthur home base was in Port Moresby, Papua New Guineau. And he envision that it will be island hopiing. Also, MacArthur made use of limited resources inventing the theory to TRIPPLE ENVELOPMENT, meaning in amphibious landing of troops, he had to use ground forces, naval forces and the air force. First time it was use considering the coordination of the uniqueness of each.



In one operation somewhere in Papua New Guinea, General MacArthur notice that the insignia of dead Japanese where the Elite Troops that concquer French Indo-China, Malaysia and Singapore. Only MachArthur graps the important meaning of this: the japanes were sending there elit forces and the amirican were decimating the elite japs troops. So the remaining troops that the american will be facing are not good troops.



This is very important in Project Control Management because it is very important to know the factors that influence the project and it is also very important for PCM to mitigate the impact of this factor, eventually the training of succesful PCM will lead effective PROJECT MANAGER.



Leadership translate to bravery and experienced

Clive,



I agree with Ghengi Khan.



But General MacArthur, you are entitled with your opinion.



And I disagree.



MacArthur’s father demonstrated bravery and leadership during the American Civil War and eventually become an American General. General Douglas MacArthur was raise in American Indian Territory. He Graduated at West Point, Top of his class, 1st honor, Baron (as the PMA called the top batchmate or mistah. General Douglas MacArthur demostrated bravery during the American - Mexican War and also during the American adventure in the Philippines during the early 1900.



He was chief of staff of the US Armed Force. During World War II, he was the most senior General in US Armed Forces. It is worthy to note that French Indo-China (present Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) surrender to the Japs without a fight. Malaysia and Singapore, under the British Empore also surrender without a fight to the Japs.

Only in Philippines where Filipino Guerillas wages a fight to the Death because of the Leadership of General Douglas MacArthur and his promise to Return. "I SHALL RETURN". And the Filipinos did sustain the guerillas warfare believing General MacArthur shall return and Liberate the Philippines from Colonial Powers.



No other French or English General made promise to there colony that they will return with liberation army. So the locals did not wholeheartedly cooperated with there colonial master.



Sensei

Successful Project Management Consultant

I bet on leadership.



It is the strenth of the leader that makes a lot of difference in the life of people.



I seen a lot of managers without leadership, it cause to much trouble within the work environment.



Leadership at the lower level of project construction are the leadman. This people do not have management skills. But the leadman ability to lead properly will energize his team to be productive.

You can be the best leader with minimal management quality:



For example:



BC: Alexander the Great, Genghis khan



AD: Hie Hitler,General MacArthur, my idol. Martin Luther King



There are a lot of leaders.



In our beloved Planet, of course we have PP Admin, then >>>>>>>>>> let the whole planet vote.



Sensei

Successful Project Management Consultant

Yes, the ability to motivate others is an important part of effective leadership.



In his book on Management Teams Belbin found that successful teams contained a member he described as a "Chairman", who would ensure all members of the team contributed rather than allowing one or two members to dominate. It was never explicitly stated, but I inferred, that this Chairman wasn’t necessarily the dominant "leader" in these groups, which suggests (to me) that management of a group and leadership of a group can be separate functions; the inspirational leader creating a vision, and a clever manager maximising participation.

The biggest difference between managers and leaders is the way they motivate the people who work or follow them, and this sets the tone for most other aspects of what they do.

Hi! Charles,



Well, the way I look at the current issue "Leadership and Management" we cannot separate the two. Even before the mediaval period; "Once Upon a Time" those great Kings and Queen cannot rule their Kingdom in a proper way without; City Mayor, Tax Collector and maybe Prime Minister.



I can guarantee that this issue, the result will be just like, which comes first the Egg or the Chicken and the conclusion is...KFC...Joking side.



I think we should have enough for this...



See yah..

Charlie

I write this not meaning to offend and in no way do I subscribe to the activities of the leader

The story is thus

Once upon a time a small austrian decided he wanted to rule a major country he was a good speaker and manipulator of both fear and favour but he was not a manager. However he attracted excellent managers who detailed and recorded their attrocoties.

In this case it can be clearly seen that the two activities are mutually inclusive.

Leadership and management have to go together

I agree with Chris

Hi Charlie,



I’m afraid I have to disagree with you. Leadership is not better than Management, nor is Management better than Leadership they are too closely integrated to make such a comparison.



Earlier in your post #22, you describe the management function as being "Planning, Organizing, Implementing and Control/monitoring", this is pretty much what Louis Allen says namely - Planning, Organising, Leading, Controlling. You then go on to make the point yourself that leadership is effective only when integrated with management, so I really don’t see how you can say that Leadership is better than Management.



Chris Oggham

Hi Jerry,



I still bet on Leadership that will make a lot of difference in our life. An effective leader generarlly applies the fundamental of management function: Planning, Organizing, Implementing and Control/monitoring.



An effective leader may not realize that he was using the fundamenatal of management function in achieving goals, however the fact that the leader was effective, it follows that the leader used management function instinctively.



Are we aware that each and everyone of us got leadership instinct that help us save the day and help us also to move forward?



We will start to evaluate ourselves and then we will move forward and come up with the conclusion that LEADERSHIP IS BETTER THAN MANAGEMENT.



Cheers,



charlie

Hi! Guy’s,



Agree! Integrated Management is a must. Can we make it in General; There will be no Project Big or small without Managementand Leadership. Do you? There must be a "DRIVER".



OOooppsss...;>

Clive,



You’re absolutely right. Management and Leadership should be completely integrated otherwise neither of them works effectively. Management without Leadership becomes manipulation, paper-shuffling and bureaucracy. Leadership without Management becomes self-indulgence and dictatorship.



Charlie made a point that management thoughts change but leadership is always with us, and that’s true to a certain extent, but management thoughts aren’t management. At its simplest, management is making sure that the people you’re managing have the resources and support they need to do the job, then getting the hell out of the way so they can get on and do it. For that to be truly effective, though, someone has to show them a vision, an inspiration and an example, which is where leadership comes in.



Management and leadership both are essential to maximise success.



Chris

Hello,



I’ll be on Leadership.



Leadership was with mankind as old as man himself.



Scientific approach to management thoughts is the product of the twenty centtury. Management idea gave only broad understanding of the functioning of an organization: corporation, government services, construciton, military organization.



But it is leadership that will save the day.



In construction, an individual lacking in leadership will always complain, make alibi on why he cannot achieved, etc.



On the other hand, an individual with leadership skills got can do attitude, he can attain his objective and bulldoze his way to ensure what is expected of him to accomplish will become a reality.



Management thoughts will change, but, leadership will always be with us, human.



Cheers,



Charlie

Hello! Norzul,



I fully...Agree!!



Regards,



Jerry

Hello There,



Most of you are absolutely right, Hi! Norzul long time no see...since in Finland..



Management and Leadership are totally different in views but same focus " Project Delivery on Target".



Have you been through a Conpany or a Project whereby "There’s a Lot of Chiefs, not Enough Indians".



Joking side.



Jerry

Hi Guys,



Demetrius is absolutely right when he says "one needs the other to succeed". Which is why a lot of management theorists say that leadership is part of the management function. I’m not so sure that it need be integrated quite so tightly, but managers certainly do need to exhibit some leadership charactaristics, if only by setting an example.



Chris Oggham

I would say it’s the same difference between "organizing" and "directing".



Management deals on "how things are done or should be done" while Leadership deals on "what are the things that need to be done".



So one needs the other to succeed.

I read in the book "the seven habits of highly effective people" by Stephen R. Covey’s a simple and nice destinction between management and leadership... the author suggests that;

management is the art of getting things done the right way while leadership is the art of geeting people to do the right things!!!



i hope this helps,



cheers...

Dear Norzul,



i believe u mean developing ’leaders’ and not people. However, i can’t buy on ’ownership’. Thats the intrinsic hallmark of any profesisonal. How can u define leadership on that basis?

Hi Norzul,



That`s a good question. I always reckoned Lao Tzu was right.



The Best Rulers



Of the best rulers,

The people only know that they exist;

The next best they love and praise

The next they fear;

And the next they revile.

When they do not command the people’s faith,

Some will lose faith in them,

And then they resort to oaths!

But of the best when their task is accomplished,

Their work done,

The people all remark, “We have done it ourselves.”



Lao-Tzu

Chinese philosopher

6th century BC



Just substitute Leader for Ruler.



Regards



Chris Oggham

Leadership is actually developing and nuturing an environment in which others can self-actualise in accomplishing their goal.



Leadership has three facets:



i) Accomplishing the mission

ii) Motivation

iii) Nurturing new leaders

Hi



I also feel, As Norzul Ibhrim said, managment deals with things. Management knowledge can be used to translate the vision, goals to detailed activities. We can also develop systems but Management does not focus on the people who really work to achieve the goals.



I feel Leadership clearly gives appropriate motivation at right time for the individual to putforth afforts in achieving the organisation goals.



Nelson Mandela, Gandhi achieved freedom for their Countries with leadership.

Hi Guys,



I found this discussion quite interesting as it highlights some of the current thinking on management which is not necessarily correct. If we take the definition of management given by Louis Allen, management consists of:

Planning
Organising
Leading
Controlling

This is similar to the definition proposed by Henri Fayol, where management consists of:

Prévoyance (Planning)
Organisation (Organising)
Coordination (Coordinating)
Commandement (Directing)
Contrôl (Controlling)

From these two at least we see that a managers must also be leaders, or they`re not doing the job properly.



There is a pretty good article about management and leadership which you can get to from the link below.



Is "Leadership" Contrary to Good "Management"?



Thanks for making me look at this again.



Chris Oggham

Management is the art of getting work done with others. While Leadership is about providing direction, ideally proactively, showing the path, blazing a new one in the face of all odds, inspiring and keeping the moral high even when the chips are down.



My conviction is Proactiveness is the steeping stone to great leadership. If you are not proactive, you are actually eliciting response from others in order to react which means you are being lead by others.

Hello Norzul



As defined in some dictionaries: Leadership is the act of leading or the ability to lead; while Management is the manner of treating, directing, or administering somthing...



they may have various differences in functions but they both can exist in any individual...



Cheers!



Christian