Primavera P3 is OBSOLETE

Hi Can anyone help - I need to convert a MSP 2007 file into P3

I have used P3 for 10 years - and believe it still is the best Planning Software for Construction Planning

Hope someone can help me

Satnam

Obsolete but it serve for the purpose.

Hi Alex,

If to use the new planning software the same way as the previous one then you will gain a little from moving from one package to another. I mean that if you "draw" the schedules then it does not matter much what "planning software" to use. Any experienced planner will learn the new software in a month or even faster if to use the same planning approaches.

If you use the software to optimize project (program, portfolio) performance then having better tool will help to save a fortune. You will get better schedules, you will be able better simulate real resource performance, to optimize and better control project costs, etc. In this case you will not try to save money on training your planners.

If the software suggests the same features it has no chances to be accepted. If new features are attractive to business owners and top managers then some of them will try and will get competitive advantages in their business. Easy to Use and Easy to Learn is for mass market, for drawers, and large corporations where the decisions are made not by Planners and Managers but by IT managers who want to make their work easier. For them it is easy and safe to suggest something that is used by their neughbors.

The market for advanced software is limited but most interesting.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Hi Scarlet



MS Excel is a poor shadow of the original spreadsheet - Lotus 123.



The far superior Lotus software was smothered by Microsoft so what comes around goes around.



Don’t be surprised when Google come up with a better bit of kit than excell - and the sooner the better.



Best regards



Mike Testro.

Most Planner I know, show their Primavera certification, some planners don’t have primavera certification but their cv are fully loaded with Primavera experience, from P3 to P6.



But most of the planning is done in excel, weight distribution, MS Excel worksheets, MS Excel charts, MS Excel pivot table, MS Access.



P3 and P6, MS Project, etc. will be obsolete, but



MS Excel will always be around forever.



Thank you,

Scarlett

Hi All,



This is a interesting discussion and complex one too. The decision of who chose what product is all about market power.



Take this an example, "WordPerfect" or "WordStar" I forgot already, use to be the must known skill for a office staff its hard to learn all the different key stroke. It is the prefer "NOT Perfect" word processing tool (back in the 80’s)



The world had change, why, market power for similar result.

Who change it, the market I guess but you may ask HOW...

MS make their product so easy to learn and so cheap to learn, simple everyone can use it. The create this massive supply (People who know how to use it) in the market, the WS and WP no longer an unique skill, and that is the turning point, since you can hire someone easily with the similar result, which one you prefer, the low risk option of course.



As for planning software go it is the same, try to put an AD for a experienced PP or Spider Project planner compare to a P6/P3 planner. Which one you will get an application for the job.... P3/P6 of course. The market power is there already there for P3/P6, for any other product to break that cycle, you need free training and free product (or at least low cost) AND these training need to offer to all the existing P3/P6 users



You may argue that there is a different between word processing software and planning software. Planning does have the Intellectual Property bit (Brain Power) that is make planner unique skill set. Correct, that is why they have to offer this training to existing user in order to gain market share.



If that happen, P3 or P6 will soon be dead..... (Give too much away for Spider Project marketing manager)



BTW one important qualifier need to be met as well which is "Similar Result if not better” That why MSP fail... because their Product Fail to produce the same result.....



LOL



Alex

Rafael,

we have customers - Contractors whose Owners required P6. After some initial disputes and testings they agreed that the Contractor can use Spider Project for managing the work but periodically will provide the schedule (electronic) in P6 format to the Owner.

The same was in 90-s with the Owners that used P3.

If the recalculated schedule is worse then the questions will not be asked. If the recalculated schedule is better then you selected the wrong tool.

But I know that it is not easy to convince the Owner that you have serious reasons for using other software.

Vladimir



I agree that what you propose can be done if the migration is flawless.



The problem is when the Owner recalculates the schedule by his own and questions the difference.



It is usually required here to submit the electronic file along with the printed reports.



Also somme reports that run after the recalculation are required. Believe me it is not easy to get away with the use of other software.



Best regards,

Rafael

Carlos,

I agree that migrating to new tool is reasonable only if it has some necessary functional features that the old tool does not have (creates better schedules, better simulates the reality, provides better analysis, etc.). I don’t mean specifically Power Project or any specific software. When the schedule is exported to some other tool then it is like providing some report. It does not matter if the contractor’s tool cannot do the same because the schedule and the budget were calculated using the original tool.

As an example: if the contractor uses MS Project and you calculated better resource-constrained schedule using P6 then exporting it to MS Project you suggest to do the work your way. Just switch off automatic levelling or apply must dates.

Rafael,

exporting the schedule (and budget) means that you will not recalculate it. This is like creating special report. To be sure that nothing will be changed apply must dates. So the schedule in P6 database will be the same and presenting it on the Web is P6 function. Of course export means that some software specific information will be lost but P6 user will not notice it because P6 just does not have corresponding fields.

The Owner may require to present the schedule in the certain format. It is not his business how the schedule was created. If using Spider Project can help the Contractor to save a lot of money then why not?

Vladimir



Exporting does not necessarily yield the same results; otherwise the programs would be equivalent, no difference at all, just cosmetics. By the way exporting usually is a pain on the behind. What about when your software does not keep peace with the competition upgrades? Is Spider Project compatible with P6.2 web version?



I agree the functionality is of primordial importance and then reporting can be taken into consideration.



With regard to the many functions the problem is with how specs constraint the other party, namely the Contractor. Some specs tell the Contractor which software to use, the Owner want to use his own software for purposes of claim negotiation and will not allow the Contractor to select the tool of his choosing, the party responsible to generate an implement the schedule. A hundred Owners, a hundred possible software for the Contractor to use, sorry to me this is non-sense. And the list goes on, but may be too distracting from the main theme to list them here.



I would like to be free to pickup Spider Project if this is my wish. Too much control of the industry by single software I don’t like it. It is against free enterprise spirit for our Government agencies to specify Primavera Products, even as a reference it should be only by performance specs. To have Spider Project as an option is for the benefit of all.



Best regards,

Rafael

Vladimir:

Migrating to a new software is not easy task. One must put own effort into migration process. How do you convince an owner to make an effort (in time and money) to migrate?

On the other hand, if I migrate to a new tool is because the new tool has features the old tool doesn’t have. Power Project can export files to and from Primavera, but it can be the case Primavera can’t manage some of the features from an imported Power Project file. Then, what’s the point in buying a new tool if you can’t use it to its max, being limited to the contractors’ tool?

Rafael,

if the software can export schedules to the tool required by the Owner then the problem does not exist.

The PM software is the planning tool that helps to organize the work and to optimize resource usage. Reporting is not the primary function though necessary for communications. If the software creates poor schedules then its reporting capabilities do not matter much.

I estimate PM software by its functional features - if it creates good resource constrained schedules, if it can simulate resource work and project restrictions. If everything is fine with this then reporting features can be taken into consideration.

And good project model shall be used for planning, management, control, negotiations, defense and any other real needs. I don’t agree that it can serve only one purpose.

Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir,



If I were free to make my choice I would do what you suggest. Unfortunately CPM is no longer a true project management tool but also a claim tool, therefore the Owner asks for his choice, not yours, it is a contractual requirement.



I agree with your assessment that it should be the Contractor’s choice, in practice this is not how it works. He who has the money makes the rules, the Owner.



Some use the schedule to plan. Some use it to control. Some use it to bargain and negotiate. Some use it to ridicule, while others use it to defend. Some use it to manage. Some use it to monitor. One schedule cannot achieve all of these various ends with equal effectiveness. In fact, the route to some ends is mutually exclusive. As you head in one direction, you distance yourself from another destination.

From: Faster Construction Jobs with CPM Scheduling by Murray B. Wolf



You have no idea of how much I crusade for this practice to be discontinued, but it fits Primavera and a few who have a vested interest. Meanwhile this mutt dog must follow the pack.



If I were into house building I would choose PP, I would be able to print schedule layouts at full drawing size to be posted at the jobsite using a single page for every 10 pages other software would require, at an easier to follow layout for free.



Primavera started with P3 an excellent product at its time, now is showing its age, then they followed with SureTrak. On the other hand I consider P6 a piece of garbage for those who do not need an Enterprise solution. Maybe I will end up swallowing this sour candy, who knows. I hope Owners and Construction Contractors will show some common sense at the end and pick up something else, whatever must be better.



Ironically, for the moment, our product of choice is Primavera SureTrak.



Best regards,

Rafael

Rafael,

you wrote that you gave up PP because it is not known here. So what? If the software has real advantages and can export projects to other programs for communications then what prevents to use it? If it can help to create better plans then why do you prefer to use those tools that are not saticfactory only because other people use them?

Please explain,

Regards,

Vladimir

Carlos



I gave up Power Project because it is not known here, even when I found some good features. Let me know after a few weeks about your experience, is always good to know.



The advantage of web applications, assuming good password security, is that you can anywhere update the file avoiding duplication of effort. The problem is with the acceptance by others. How you can check on the model if you do not have a file comparison tool like Digger?



Best regards

Rafael

Has somebody tried Project Insight? http://www.projectinsight.net/

It claims to be "Built Using PMI Project Management Standards"



I’m already walking my first steps with Power Project, but this one got my attention.

Mike,



I am waiting for their e-mail regarding a demo I asked. Meanwhile I am exploring their site.



It is good to find true functionality improvements to the already available fields. I do not need hundreds of additional database fields like P6 is, just a few. Isn’t it enough? More fields means someone will ask you to populate them making you waste unnecessary time and maybe lose perspective by taking away time for analysis on what really matters.



I always asked for better ways to filter relevant data, filter for out-of-sequence, lag and relationship types, a functionality never availabe under P3, among a few others. Poweproject is providing some.



At a schedule update review, with limited time and a PM hurrying you these filters are a blessing. I was a PM for many years, now I am not; I provide services to them and understand how tight of time they always are.



The original developers of P3 could have made it twice as good as Powerproject, but they did not, they are gone and PowerProject is ahead. Everyone, long ago knew P3 was due for an upgrade that never came and even published their own wish list.



By the way, what about PERT/PDM views in PowerProject, I never print the whole diagram but portions of it are very useful.



Best regards,

Rafael

Good Morning Everyone.



I am reaaly enjoying this thread - I should apply to Asta for any future sales commissions.



By the way Rafael - have you set up the "curved" link feature where you can track vertical links that overlay each other in print.



Another thing I like is the infinite number of calendar exceptions that can be set up - each with different colours and hatching - great for differentiating weather or work stoppages on the chart.



Best regards



Mike Testro

Rafael,

you can do the same trip on foot. Project Management is older than computers and even cars.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir,



I can get from San Juan to Ponce, in a 1980’s Yugo as well as in a brand new 750Li BMW.



The ride is not the same.



Best regards,

Rafael

Hi Mike



"The only problem is that the infinite variety of Powerproject calendars and resources are lost in the transfer back"



That’s my point: You can get all excited with improved functionality from PowerProject, then export your schedule to P6 and everyting what looked shiny in PowerProject becomes dull and unreadable in P6. Then, PowerProject becomes the likes of a Ferrari with an engine restricted to 60 mph.



Anyway, the conclussion I reach is: For me to start a scheduling career, maybe the adequate tool to buy is PowerProject.

Rafael,

in Spider Project you can select between finding the optimal levelling solution for shortest possible schedule and "Previous Version Support" when resource levelling is done keeping the order of activities in one of the previous versions of the project schedule.

When resources are limited activities may be delayed not because of logical dependencies but because of resource (supply, financing) restrictions. In this case relationships analysis does not help.

I understand that displaying only driving dependencies is useful but it is only one of many network analysis tools (like displaying only those activities that have no predecessors or successors) that simplifies this analysis but itself does not improve the scheduling capabilities of the software and the quality of the schedule model.



There are many important improvements since 70-s.

And I have nothing against Power Project, I am sure that it is praiseworthy PM software.



Best Regards,

Vladimir

Vladimir



At times you want to force some sequence that is not a true dependency but to account for some resource limitation or a sequence you want to control and not allow the software to do so. When things go sour and your job start to fall behind, then you might want to identify these and release them. I know how good you consider resource leveling under Spider Project but I still wonder what will happen to your resource leveling as the schedule is updated, will it keep course or will change course in search for the “optimum”?



What about the clutter you get into the bar chart when all dependencies are shown, in occasions you want to concentrate with driving relationships. Of course we all know driving relationships are dynamic as well as the critical path might be. Any change when compressing the network you will notice immediately and will keep you in focus on the new driving predecessor. Because of the clutter I usually turn off the graphic display and use the tabular display, equivalent but not as intuitive, a combination of both even better.



These are refinements P3 does not have; obviously the most important are covered even under 1970’s outdated software.



P3 is showing its age.



I am not saying Powerproject is perfect, not sure about PERT or PDM views, usefull to communicate and review relationships as long as you dont print out the whole schedule.



Best regards,

Rafael

Hi Rafael,

you are so enthusiastic about this simple feature. Why?

Yes, it is useful but I never even mentioned it as Spider Project advantage. In Spider Project you can apply any filter on relationships like Driving, Not Driving, FS, FF, SS, SF, Lags more or less something, Lag Calendars, Strict or Not Strict and any combinations.

It is nice but there are other functional features that deserve much more attention.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Powerproject 10



Link types, this is my idea!!!, you have no idea how useful this can be.



Control on link display other than on and off, no other has it as they do not have link types or option to control on displaying driving/non-driving relationships, avoids clutter and provides understanding.



These are simple and practical things, why do I need P6 with 2000 field database with no such functionality? P3 upgrade, long overdue, never happened.



Ahgg, ##11xx&##, we are far behind.

In reply to



Vladimir will no doubt say that there is no need for a Spider topic because there are never any problems.

Best regards

Mike Testro



Mike,

though Spider Project users live in 25 countries most of them don’t speak English. I think that this is the reason why PP admin did not create Spider Project forum.

We have forums on Spider Project in Russian where people discuss how to model complex cases and project management issues. There are very few problems that were discussed and all of them were solved not later than in a week - new versions of Spider Project with improved functionality are published very frequently (at least once in a month). So I don’t agree with the statement that the number of threads correlates with the number of problems.

Exporting data from Spider to other PM software means lost of valuable information like physical quantities of work on activities, resource productivities, cost components, financing and supply simulation, variable resource workloads, etc. Importing is easy.

I suggest you to download Spider Demo and think that you will enjoy its functionality.

Best Regards,

Vladimir

Seems like the UK has it solved with PowerProject, but we don’t, yet.



US automakers did not listened what the world markets were asking until Toyota and Honda took over, now it is too late, the same will happen to Primavera/Oracle, maybe SAP from Germany and PowerProject from the UK will take over.



If PowerProject is a better product, then welcome.

Hi Carlos



If you have P3 software and Powerproject on the same computer then you can switch from P3 to Powerproject v10 and back again at any point.



I have also used this to upgrade a switched P3 to P6 - don’t ask me how - it just seemed to happen.



The only problem is that the infinite variety of Powerproject calendars and resources are lost in the transfer back.



You can also transfer between Microsoft Project and PowerProject but why bother - rubbish in rubbish out.



Best regards



Mike Testro

PowerProject looks way better than P6, but I (sadly) know that I wouldn’t be able to use it in a real job since everyone else is using Primavera or Project, and it would come with compatibility issues sooner or later.



So, I second Rafael’s opinion regarding PowerProject’s marketing guys. Bring it here, to Mexico!



Best Regards,



Carlos.

I think this is a case of having a good headstart in the business similar to what Microsoft did when it comes to operating software. Primavera did get a very good headstart with P3, but unfortunately, it is the same headstart that they are now stopping to support in lieu of supposed to be better software than P3.



Now, people are using XP and vista because of their experience with its predecessor operating software. But in the case of P6, it’s not really a cutting edge technology that you could easily tell yourself that I can forego its predecessor P3 because P6 is way better than its predecessor. I’m using P6 now not because I like the product, but because of the doomsday scenario on P3. As what I have been saying in this PP, it would be better for Primavera that they improve P3 rather than sticking with a no better software P6. Of course, this needs technology experts to assess if this is feasible.



My other 2 cents.

Mike,



I ventured into PowerProject site. Seems like superb, a good one to fill the gap when Primavera stopped developing P3.



Among other things in favor of PowerProject is the way it handles Baselines, maybe not as good as P3 but close and better than any other. I also would like to see in detail how it handles multiple activities under the same bar, good for housing and multistory buildings, something I have never seen before, this is a very good one indeed. Buffers are another one I would use in a simplified way, but good to have if you want to use it at full functionality. And what about the Enterprise option that can export licensing to jobsite laptops, seems like Workstation and Enterprise versions are fully compatible.



But what happens with their marketing guys that do not move out of their comfort zone? Don’t let P6 take over, it is now or never.



Cordially,

Rafael

Hi Rafael



The last I heard was that Primaveera was closing its support for P3.



I have to use all sorts of software but my choice is PowerProject by Asta Development - this is the most popular for Contractors in the UK and the most easy to use of the lot.



Regarding P6 - I have it but not had to use it yet - it seems overcomplicated with many features that are rarely used in construction.



Following the PP threads it also seems to be full of bugs and complexities.



You will notice that the P6 Forum has 2199 threads and Powerproject 86 - I think that says it all considering that Powerproject was in place long before P6.



Vladimir will no doubt say that there is no need for a Spider topic because there are never any problems.



Best regards



Mike Testro

Mike,



What are you using? Same as NASA? I suppose it is not a neighborhood/regional thing, but something with worldwide acceptance, with representatives to provide onsite assistance anywhere in USA and its territories, South Africa, Japan, the Philippines, anywhere not a regional thing.



By the way how would you label P6?



Best regards,

Rafael

Mike, any idea what they are using now ! (NASA)



mimoune

For the needs of the average contractor, less tha 100,000 activities per job,

even an Exactus Mini-Add would be better than P6.



Best regards

Rafael

Hi All



In my opinion P3 was obsolete on the day that NASA stopped using it.



It is a rubbish bit of software - not even an undo feature on progress entry!



One typo and it is set in stone.



Best regards



Mike Testro

P3 is excellent but is losing some functionality, among others full integration with Outlook 2007. Eventually it might not even work under the upcoming operating systems. I hate to admit P3 is close to becoming obsolete.



P6 and whatever Enterprise Software there is on the market is not the appropriate tool for the average General Contractors or a mere 98% of the industry. As a matter of fact Enterprise Applications has been available for decades for the Aerospace and Oil Industries. Because P6 compared to other Enterprise Software is cheap in all aspects, cost and quality, it might find a place at the Utilities that cannot afford the cost of a good Enterprise Application.



For the few in true need of an Enterprise Application; Integrating SAP with P6, a product that every other month comes with a service pack or an upgrade to solve about 40 bugs at a time does not makes any sense. I wonder how these upgrades affects the database and it’s integration with SAP, maybe it is that integration is a piece of cake.

P3 is the backbone for planning world in Window version for Primavera users. I am using this since 1997. Once someone is conversant with this, you can not live without it. I love P3. It makes you professional front runner. I am working with P6 too. But the taste I get with P3 is missing elsewhere.

I am migrating from P6 to P3. How ironic.

So if 2010 is any fixed date to go by, let’s hope that by then Primavera incorporate all the functionalities of P3 in its forthcoming versions. It is not there in P6. So let’s hope P7 (whenever it comes) incaptulate all the good old functionalities of P3.



One can appreciate that P3 started as a really powerful tool. And this power has not changed much from its DOS days - a lot of functionalities even in P5 looks the similar as it used to do in DOS days. It is mainly the graphics and reporting that has been added in subsequent releases. UNDO was the main function added in P5 compared to earlier version.

SE



to answer youre question then



Primavera announced in 2010 P3 will no longer supported by Primavera Inc - extended two more years from original plan.



By that time I think P3 as a software product is almost to the end of its life.



If we take the software / hardware product life cycle 13 years is a very long time 1996 first release in MS Window 3.1 to 2010 (Sorry not go back to the DOS P3 version, because I consider that is another product)



P3 is certainly is superseded / replaced by P6 in 2010 and certainly old fashioned. So i think according to your stated defination then P3 is Obsolete. (Because that is OR statment)



Give you an example, DOS a obsoleted product, but still there are people/organisation using it in processing plant.

From Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Obsolete - no longer in use, old fashioned, extinct, outworn, superseded.



Bijaya - give you a bit of history why P3 and P3e ... P5 is so different, P3e is developed by another company (forgot their exact name - in short form its xer that is why the export project name is xer) That company try to develop a project planning tool where P3 is weak @, prior to gaining any major market share Primavera brought their product (not the company) and develop futher and become today’s P5, that is why it cannot produce exactly the same funcation and feel and like as P3.

Cheers



Alex

This posting started when someone had just installed P5 and "EUREKA" he shouts as if he has just discovered the project management solution. The subsequent postings merely show how that was not the case. More you use, more you will know about about its limitations and plus points. Having used P3ec all through Versions 3.5, 4 and 5 for past three years, I appreciate the power of P5. (and also limitations). Interestingly P3 is better in the same area where P5 is week. And despite several suggestions to Primavera about it, they did not implement those in version 4 or version 5 (P5). And in fact they have not implemented those even in recently announced P6 which is web based programme.



When asked about it, Primavera said that they are now working in this area as a priority basis but did not give any time frame.



Anyway the point I want to make is that it is not the software alone that makes you "Up to Date". You or your method can be obsolete if you do not take the full picture into view.

Gentlemen, gentlemen,



The only issue is, if P3 is already obsolete.



From Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Obsolete - no longer in use, old fashioned, extinct, outworn, superseded.



So now tell me, is P3 obsolete?



Cheers,



Se

Charlie



No, you have not interpreted correctly what I am trying to say, and as you cannot spell my name maybe you didn’t read it properly anyway.



Despite the contradiction in your reply, you make a point in saying that ’planning using P3 is only one of the many tools use (sic) by project managers to drive the project team to achieve project goals’.



Surely the point of the programme is to provide a basis for monitoring progress against a baseline produced at a given moment in time, to help the management of the project (including the planner) to adapt to the ever changing circumstances surrounding the project in order to achieve project completion? Using proper planning software rather than PM reporting software surely makes this easier and more efficient.



Always remembering, of course that the planner utilises the software to enhance his/her skills; the ability to use the software doesn’t necessarily make one a planner!

Allan,



I think what you are trying to say is that "planner are becomming obsolete without face in the organizational heirarchy."



It is not really the software that becomes obsolete but the planner that rely so much with P3.



I really did pity the planner without vision to move on the higher heirarchy: Project Manager.



planning using P3 is only one of the many tools use by project managers to drive the project team to achieve project goals.



what you are really trying to say is that irrespective of what software including version of that software, the planners are highly paid project team members that only they know what they are planning for 30,000 +++ activitiies devoid of realities as per site progress.



I been there and i know, unless someone got the balls to make planning relevant of achieving project goals.



Cheers,



Charlie

I agree with Amreshwar Shukla entirely.



I don’t know either why Primavera decided not to continue P3. I reviewed P3e/c with them in 2003 and told them they had reverted to where they had been 5 years previously, they were not happy. Even the output then was designed to look the same as MS Project output, with the same limitations.



No, they don’t appear to listen.



Basically P3 is a Planner’s tool, and p5 (P3e/c etc) is a Manager’s reporting tool, and we all know where Planner’s sit in the management heirarchy!!