If it is true Id like to hear from Charlie how he justifies such action. Surely that is against all the principles of truth and openness that he so often espouses?
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Submitted by Oliver Melling on Mon, 2007-08-20 06:07
Please can you point me in the direction of the critical path thread - or are you trying to confuse the contributors to this thread even more by adding yet a further dimension (that being by changing its title?).
D
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Fri, 2007-08-17 05:25
We might have to let this one die but Clive (below) did throw a little light:
To turn to the matter in hand I do recall on a training course regarding the NEC, unfortunately directly after lunch when I am not at my best, that the term Terminal float was used by the course leader, a gentleman who had an intimate hand in drafting said suite of contracts.
If he wasnt such a piss-head and so shy of exposing his sources we might have solved it!
Anyway, I guess the die is almost cast and there is little chance of turning the large tanker that is the misuse of our precise language (yes... I am trying to mix as many metaphors as I can - just to confuse Charlie with my native english speak).
One day, when I have time to breath again Ill write that paper throwing a few Fs into the contingency/float debate. No-one takes any notice though but feels good to get it off my chest.
Anyhow... I take comfort in the fact that the where are all the planners in London thread has more misleading bunkum than this. So, Clive - if you are still around - I think you should consider that thread a contender for Orbe dOr.
Love and Peace
David
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Submitted by Chris Oggham on Fri, 2007-08-17 04:16
And for yours - I feel it a pity that others have not waded through the thread like you did to find the true meaning of life, sorry, I mean the true subject of the thread! Why, oh why is everyone keen on giving me their interpretation of what Terminal Float might or might not be! Seems we might be going off piste again...
David
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Submitted by Puneet Gupta on Wed, 2007-08-15 11:55
Terminal Float is same as Total float on the last planned activity in the network.
Terminal Float is not same as contingency.
Contractor may show early completion of his work but what about the predecessor activity of his work which is dependent on Engineer / Architect / Other Contractor work?
So in my opinion terminal float is same as Total Float.
There can be two ways of showing terminal float in a network.
1. Put the Early Finish constraint on the project completion date and link it with the last activity of the network. Any delay on the longest path will not shift the project completion date.
2.Link the last activity with Projects Contractual completion date as FS relationship with required lag.
If the network is defined as mentioned in point 1, It will act as Total Float.
In case 2 , It will act as Contractors contingency.Any single day delay on the longest path will delay the Contract completion date.
Normally I prefer Option 1 , Until n unless told to me by project manager that this is a contingency.
Thanks
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Tue, 2007-08-14 20:16
And the 2012 Olympics has allegedly a year of the new symbol at the end of it as far as the construction phase goes (or did have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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Submitted by Chris Oggham on Mon, 2007-08-13 05:58
Totally agree with your award of the Golden Orbe, but please dont let him make an acceptance speech or well be here til the 2012 Olympics and no-one will have any idea what hes talking about.
Chris
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Submitted by Oliver Melling on Tue, 2007-07-31 09:17
Defintely a relevant point. The contractor would have a good claim for the ownership of any contingency but as we know, not always float.
The NEC gives the contractor ownership of terminal float so in that case the use of the two terms is probably less important, but inter-mixing them can only lead to confusion which is best avoided. If mixed up someone will try and use the same principle on a contract where it isn’t applicable and arguments will follow. The distinction therefore is important in other contracts.
Brad, it may be boring, but it might cost someone a few million pounds one day if they get it wrong, so I think it’s worth discussing.
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Tue, 2007-07-31 08:52
Apologies for being out of this thread but I have been on holiday.
It seems to have developed another life... mainly, as usual, because Charlie cant concentrate on a topic and decides to go off on another of his chip on the shoulder racist rants!
Anyhow... Charlie - may I suggest you read Glenlion Construction Ltd v The Guiness Trust (1986)(you can find a brief synopsis at http://www.planningengineers.org/publications/legalcases.aspx (or just do a Google search). I think this was the first case that highlighted the problem that could arise by producing a programme with terminal float.
My original question (that arose from study of the NEC suite) came about because some commentators were calling terminal float contincency. I dont think float and contingency are the same thing, float can be used as a contingency but until it is designated as such it is still mere float and has less potency that contingency.
Thats all folks.
David
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Tue, 2007-07-31 08:37
Its been around for alot of years - since whenever the first contractor decided he could finish a project early!
The NEC familly of contracts, now used internationally, not only recognises it, but has express provisions to deal with it.
The only thing not accepted in the academic, international, planning software, planning plannet, planning and claims community appears to be your opinion.
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Tue, 2007-07-31 08:30
Do you actually read any of the other posts before making your own? I dont believe you can do as if you did, you would know that what David asked was where did the term Terminal Float come from.
The fact that the term exists means that it is gaining or has gained some credibility and acceptance. So, as usual, you have missed the point and resorted to your usual drivel about native born English speakers.
Chris Oggham
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Mon, 2007-07-23 03:59
for as long that the term is not accepted by the international community, the term is not incorporated in respectable planning software accepted by the international community (Primavera, Microsoft Project, etc. I stand on my post.
Please tell the whole planning world how will you claim for extension of time.
"Our claim for extension of time is 360 days, but actually, we will less 150 days due to terminal float that we incorporate in the approve baseline programme".
Come on, what a stupid claims, funny and clowning around, waste of time.
I thinks if no one can elucidate on this issues and its impact in forensic planning and claims, we will just accept it as an invention by native born english speakers.
Cheers,
Joseph
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Submitted by Chris Oggham on Mon, 2007-07-23 03:25
I had a bit of a look round at the weekend to see if I could find out where the term Terminal Float came from, with a singular lack of success. Like you I found mention of it in a number of papers, but there seems to be nothing to suggest where the term originated. Since that was the question in your original post i dont know what else to say.
Charlie/Joseph,
Your fixation with this supposed "propagating superiority in the use of english language" is the only thing that is bizarre. Its also rapidly become extremely boring, so if youll accept some advice from a, to use your phrase, "native English speaker" - get a life.
Chris Oggham
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Mon, 2007-07-23 02:31
Please present how you will show TERMINAL FLOAT in the Network or schedule.
The basic in PERT CPM is to find the critical path.
What will become of your critical path if there is terminal float.
Tell me.
Tell the whole planning planet.
Please tell me if approve baseline schedule show contingency, terminal float, hidden float, etc.
I dont think so that consultant or project management will approve baseline programme with contingency, terminal float, hidden float, etc.
Maybe in UK or in England as in Native English Speaking people.
Oliver, Im not jealous with native english speaking nationalities. Im interested in there bizzare ways of propagating superiority in the use of english language, not anymore for them to exploits others since english now is possess by the international community also our beloved planning planet
cheers,
Joseph
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Submitted by KongChung Chan on Mon, 2007-07-23 00:40
It no longer surprises me how anything Charlie/Joseph doesnt like/agree with/understand is always rubbish/should be rejected/banned. What is quite remarkable is his consistent ability to attribute just about anything to a conspiracy "to promote the superiority of the english language by native born english speakers."
Remarkable certainly, but rapidly becoming extremely tiresome as his pointlessly offensive remarks draw peoples attention away from the purpose of the thread.
Chris Oggham
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Submitted by Oliver Melling on Thu, 2007-07-19 06:17
If a contractor chooses to complete a project early then there is a period of time between his planned completion date and the contractual completion date.
If you dont want to call this period terminal float, what do you want to call it?
Its ceratinly some kind of float, the planned completion date being the EF date and the contractual completion date being the LF date.
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Thu, 2007-07-19 05:54
I dont have anything much to contribute except to say that Matthew seems to have carried out an extremely thorough investigation. The term itself seems to have been around for a fair while, but on-one seems to know where it came from. Perhaps, as Andrew suggested, its merely a posh name for what he used to call End Float.
What isnt useful, however, is Charlie/Joseph saying that the term should be rejected, that makes no more sense than saying that he rejects rainy days. Nor is it useful for him to make his usual pointless, spiteful remarks about English people.
It would be far better if we followed the original premise of this thread when David set it up and tried to find out where the term came from, what it means and how we can best use it.
Chris Oggham
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Thu, 2007-07-19 02:48
In this way, our understanding of FLOAT will be simple and easy.
It will also make it cheaper to resolve disputes in construction project.
Can you imagine in a dispute or claim situation wherein everyone will be able to resolve the issues and all of a sudden someone practitioner of TERMINAL FLOAT" shouted that resolution will not be possible because of "TERMINAL FLOAT".
This will only be additional money for claim specialist. No resolution will be at hand.
In conclusion we will reject convoluting of "FLOAT" by tweeking english language, the international language (not anymore the sole mastery of native born english).
Float is now simply LS-ES or LF-EF. Period as in .
Then, Total Float and Free Float.
Terminal float, external float, internal float, etc.
We could add "float as in float during parade, floating as in swimming in the sea, floating the ship, etc. etc,
Float should only be as per conventional way no convulution of the english language, please in this way there will be no supremacy in the use of the english language.
Im not the racist. Im not propagating the supremacy of individuals in the use of the english language.
English language now is international. The world take possession of this wonderful language.
Cheers,
Charlie
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Thu, 2007-06-14 05:30
I will respond to the substantive points in Heather’s post later but in the mean time I feel I must respond to yet another of Charlie’s racist rants (on completion of this posting I shall report you to the moderators).
Unfortunately Charlie, what you are saying in agreeing with Heathers interpretation is, in fact, developing a new meaning for float, not ‘the old fashioned way’. If you care to take a look at any of the glossaries that define such things I believe you will find that contingency is a purposeful allocation of time or money to take account of unforeseen risks, whereas float is something generated by the logic, durations and sequence of operations.
Anoon… have you considered the ramifications of what you are saying about ownership of float? In this instance I agree with Heather although I think she would have better said “Isn’t float generally used on a first come, first serve basis? Of course it all depends on what the particular contract says but, in my limited experience, I have found contracts that make observations on the ownership of float virtually impossible to administrate effectively. For that reason I think that the NEC suite, in introducing ‘contractors risk allowance’ have overcome some of the problems – it is just unfortunate that some less well-informed commentators have decided to rebadge this ‘terminal float’. In anycase, you have managed to go off-topic again (can’t you concentrate and keep to the subject in hand?) – the thread is about the origins of the term ‘terminal float’.
Again, Charlie, would you care to enlighten us as to the ‘original meaning of the "float"’ and how it had been ‘convuluted by some native born english’ (I assume you mean ‘convoluted by some native born English’). I suspect you were referring to me then (if not who?) – but of course, yet again you arte making assumptions as you know nothing about where I was born, what my mother tongue is or what my ethnicity is.
Even you must be aware that Critical Path Analysis and the like was developed out of researchin the 1950s predominately UK by the ESI for power station construction and in the US for the Polaris programme. As a result the terminology and definitions are essentially in, and were originally in, English.
You will see that the Forum Rules and Guidelines say “Messages should preferably be in English. While the membership is worldwide with many languages represented, it is prefereble to maintain discussions here where the majority of our members can participate.” I am unable to lower my standards to correspond in imprecise language and perhaps the pidgin English you appear to condone. For those who are not aware, I understand Tagalog is one of the major languages of the Republic of the Philippines and along with along with English is the co-official language. However, Wikipedia tells me that English is more prevalent in the fields of government and business.
Charlie, Anoon; there is not an obligation to get involved in every conversation in the forum. May I suggest if you have nothing valid to contribute and just want to snipe at the English speakers here (or even the ‘native born english’) then you do it some place else.
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Submitted by Oliver Melling on Thu, 2007-06-14 04:54
In my out of the blue opinion, i disagree that float is to be used on a first come first serve basis, and also disagree that some party in the project team will be authorized to use or own it by itself, Why? For me, Float is intended for the Project itself! and to use it, must be agreed by all Parties! Though it is usually prepared by the Contractor, once the program is approved, they must declare the floats and open it to the Project Team. Then the whole team must decide on what to do about it!
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Submitted by Oliver Melling on Thu, 2007-06-14 04:10
I doubt that the illigitimate use of the terminology has anything to do with nationality, it stems from lack of understanding of the project management lexicon.
the new definition are inventions of your cousins on the other side of the continent to just propagate there superiority in the use of the english language.
The same that happens in the TIA.
But.... they are influential only in commonwealth countries as an extension of there long lost empire.
the rest of the world follow the leader
Cheers,
Charlie
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Submitted by Heather Spong on Wed, 2007-06-13 09:59
I have always tried to keep these things simple. Please let me know if I have this correctly:
Float is time built into the schedule by the contractor to protect himself against his or the owners minor delays during the project. Isnt float used on a first come, first serve basis?
End Float would therefore be the difference between the contact completion date and the actual completion date.
I have never heard the term "Terminal Float" used.
Contingency is a dollar value built into the contractors Estimate/Bid to cover unforseen and/or un-estimated costs or situations. Isnt this usually a standard % of the contract value?
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Fri, 2007-06-08 06:10
Havent come across the use of internal or external float yet - how does he define them?
As for where "terminal float" actually came from, I dont know, "end float" used to be what I called it for several years but I guess thats not posh enough.
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Fri, 2007-06-08 05:53
Yes, I know what you say about terminal float but I was asking about the origins of the term. As discussed below it does not actually exist in the NEC suite.
Somewhere along the way there has been conflation of terminal float, contingency and risk allowance (it is the latter that is protected in the NEC). I have a bit of a bee at that moment that non-planners are using our precise language imprecisely and as no-one can be arsed to challenge it ends up becoming received wisdom and dilutes the accuracy of what we do.
KP has also invented a couple of new (in my opinion unnecessary) terms; internal float and external float – which I believe muddy the waters even further!
Regards
David
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Thu, 2007-06-07 20:16
"Terminal float" - is the period between an early completion date that the contractor says he can achieve and the actual contract completion date. The NEC specifically protects this if applicable.
I cant think of any reason why you ask if im related to Charlie in any chance? (i supposed youre referring to Charlie Orbe), the answer is No! But what im sure of is that Im more good looking than him in person!
Going back to the topic, there are lots of alternatives but I supposed these alternatives are all contained in the Contract. The Contract, Rigth or Wrong once signed by the concerned parties is the Authority, which means that they have accepted it in the first place. If they found later that theres something in the Contract that is not practicable, then, that I Dont Know!
Raviraj,
My eyes are not working properly and im tired of reading, but thanks anyway.
To clear your doubts, please go through PMBOK, 3rd Edition. Contingencies are never part and parcel of contracts, its the terminology used by the project manamagement team. But, please go through PMBOK and also go through rolling wave planning.
This will definitely clear all your doubts.
Cheers,
Raviraj A Bhedase
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Mon, 2007-06-04 13:42
Anyone with any degree of real-world management and scheduling experience will realise that contractors often increase the duration of activities they feel contain risk of not completing according to schedule. In my experience, for instance, piling contractors/subcontractors almost always do this because a plant breakdown or delay in delivery of materials can have a dramatic effect on a crucial activity at the beginning of the project. This is what I mean by covertly adding contingency (which you will see I do not recommend – for a number of reasons).
In the UK, at least, most construction programmes have an activity called, snagging, final clean or pre-handover works. Again, this is usually a way of adding an element of contingency to the end of a programme.
Of course the contractor can add contingency in whatever way he wishes. Being excessive could extend the programme too much and make him uncompetitive and risk not winning the job. But is that worse than winning a job in which there is a great risk you won’t be able to do?
I would have thought a client would think better of a contractor who has allowed contingency, it is more of a guarantee that the project will complete on time. Most clients, I think, would prefer to have a guaranteed later completion date than a risky early completion date.
Sometimes it is useful to think about financial contingencies as an analogy to time contingencies. What is wrong with the contractor adding a bit of risk money into his project (it might make him uncompetitive but that is a chance he calculates). In the same way, a prudent client would have some financial buffer – if not I think he is likely to go bust almost as often as he makes a profit. Canny clients also have time contingencies (that they might not disclose to the contractor) – do you really think it a good idea fro the client to give the contractor a drop-dead date for completion that has no buffer against the time he has promised the facility to, say, a tenant?
So, Anoon… do you still think it wrong for the contractor to add contingency to the programme? Keeping it secret I would say is not good practice but it is far better than having no contingency at all. Do you know of any contracts that say contractors should not allow contingencies?
Im not sure if these two gentlemen (David & Raviraj) are trying to corrupt my already confused and very little intelligence (forgive me, I just thought I had one).
I happened to work on the Client side at the moment and you are telling me that the PM of the Contractor has all the right to allow "contigency period" or contigencies in any way at his own descrition? I understand that it is always the Contractor whos preparing the program/schedule based on his approved methodologies but to establish his own contigency and hide it from the Project Team is not good to me.
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23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Clive...
I forgot to say... in the words of Bill/Charlie...
Do you really like Italians???
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23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Oliver... is that true or another wind-up.
If it is true Id like to hear from Charlie how he justifies such action. Surely that is against all the principles of truth and openness that he so often espouses?
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
I spoke to PP Admin.
They mentioned that Bill is actually Charlie and theyre going to remove his duplicate registration.
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
So Clive, it seems like irony and sarcasm are dead! Long live Charlie!
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Clive...
Please can you point me in the direction of the critical path thread - or are you trying to confuse the contributors to this thread even more by adding yet a further dimension (that being by changing its title?).
D
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23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Chris
We might have to let this one die but Clive (below) did throw a little light:
To turn to the matter in hand I do recall on a training course regarding the NEC, unfortunately directly after lunch when I am not at my best, that the term Terminal float was used by the course leader, a gentleman who had an intimate hand in drafting said suite of contracts.
If he wasnt such a piss-head and so shy of exposing his sources we might have solved it!
Anyway, I guess the die is almost cast and there is little chance of turning the large tanker that is the misuse of our precise language (yes... I am trying to mix as many metaphors as I can - just to confuse Charlie with my native english speak).
One day, when I have time to breath again Ill write that paper throwing a few Fs into the contingency/float debate. No-one takes any notice though but feels good to get it off my chest.
Anyhow... I take comfort in the fact that the where are all the planners in London thread has more misleading bunkum than this. So, Clive - if you are still around - I think you should consider that thread a contender for Orbe dOr.
Love and Peace
David
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
David,
Have we found out where the term Terminal Float (you remember, the one Charlie dislikes so much) comes from yet?
Chris
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23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Rohit
Thanks for your contribution... I think!
Clive
And for yours - I feel it a pity that others have not waded through the thread like you did to find the true meaning of life, sorry, I mean the true subject of the thread! Why, oh why is everyone keen on giving me their interpretation of what Terminal Float might or might not be! Seems we might be going off piste again...
David
Member for
20 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Terminal Float is same as Total float on the last planned activity in the network.
Terminal Float is not same as contingency.
Contractor may show early completion of his work but what about the predecessor activity of his work which is dependent on Engineer / Architect / Other Contractor work?
So in my opinion terminal float is same as Total Float.
There can be two ways of showing terminal float in a network.
1. Put the Early Finish constraint on the project completion date and link it with the last activity of the network. Any delay on the longest path will not shift the project completion date.
2.Link the last activity with Projects Contractual completion date as FS relationship with required lag.
If the network is defined as mentioned in point 1, It will act as Total Float.
In case 2 , It will act as Contractors contingency.Any single day delay on the longest path will delay the Contract completion date.
Normally I prefer Option 1 , Until n unless told to me by project manager that this is a contingency.
Thanks
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Chris,
And the 2012 Olympics has allegedly a year of the new symbol at the end of it as far as the construction phase goes (or did have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Clive,
Totally agree with your award of the Golden Orbe, but please dont let him make an acceptance speech or well be here til the 2012 Olympics and no-one will have any idea what hes talking about.
Chris
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Maybe Brad is Charlie?
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
David,
We appear to have another Charlie in Brad, I await the day when hes in trouble, what goes around, comes around, the industry is very small.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
David,
Defintely a relevant point. The contractor would have a good claim for the ownership of any contingency but as we know, not always float.
The NEC gives the contractor ownership of terminal float so in that case the use of the two terms is probably less important, but inter-mixing them can only lead to confusion which is best avoided. If mixed up someone will try and use the same principle on a contract where it isn’t applicable and arguments will follow. The distinction therefore is important in other contracts.
Brad, it may be boring, but it might cost someone a few million pounds one day if they get it wrong, so I think it’s worth discussing.
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23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Apologies for being out of this thread but I have been on holiday.
It seems to have developed another life... mainly, as usual, because Charlie cant concentrate on a topic and decides to go off on another of his chip on the shoulder racist rants!
Anyhow... Charlie - may I suggest you read Glenlion Construction Ltd v The Guiness Trust (1986)(you can find a brief synopsis at http://www.planningengineers.org/publications/legalcases.aspx (or just do a Google search). I think this was the first case that highlighted the problem that could arise by producing a programme with terminal float.
My original question (that arose from study of the NEC suite) came about because some commentators were calling terminal float contincency. I dont think float and contingency are the same thing, float can be used as a contingency but until it is designated as such it is still mere float and has less potency that contingency.
Thats all folks.
David
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
Its been around for alot of years - since whenever the first contractor decided he could finish a project early!
The NEC familly of contracts, now used internationally, not only recognises it, but has express provisions to deal with it.
The only thing not accepted in the academic, international, planning software, planning plannet, planning and claims community appears to be your opinion.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Andrew,
I really this type of float.
It is not accepted in the academic community.
It is not accepted in the international community.
It is not accepted in the planning software industries.
It is not accepted in planning planet.
It is just an idea that has no basis but prop up to confuse the planning practioner.
It has no accepted logic, no accepted computation
It is better to forget this thread ever existed.
What do you think. Is "TERMINAL FLOAT really worth pursuing.
Will is help forensic claim analysis???
Cheer
Charlie
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
Still waiting for a reply as to what you want to call what the rest of us are happy to call "end" or "terminal" float.
Something that is internationally usable and recognisable.
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
We always speak english, maybe we could speak your native speak?
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Another useful english term..W@nker.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
Do you actually read any of the other posts before making your own? I dont believe you can do as if you did, you would know that what David asked was where did the term Terminal Float come from.
The fact that the term exists means that it is gaining or has gained some credibility and acceptance. So, as usual, you have missed the point and resorted to your usual drivel about native born English speakers.
Chris Oggham
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Chris,
for as long that the term is not accepted by the international community, the term is not incorporated in respectable planning software accepted by the international community (Primavera, Microsoft Project, etc. I stand on my post.
Please tell the whole planning world how will you claim for extension of time.
"Our claim for extension of time is 360 days, but actually, we will less 150 days due to terminal float that we incorporate in the approve baseline programme".
Come on, what a stupid claims, funny and clowning around, waste of time.
I thinks if no one can elucidate on this issues and its impact in forensic planning and claims, we will just accept it as an invention by native born english speakers.
Cheers,
Joseph
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hi David,
I had a bit of a look round at the weekend to see if I could find out where the term Terminal Float came from, with a singular lack of success. Like you I found mention of it in a number of papers, but there seems to be nothing to suggest where the term originated. Since that was the question in your original post i dont know what else to say.
Charlie/Joseph,
Your fixation with this supposed "propagating superiority in the use of english language" is the only thing that is bizarre. Its also rapidly become extremely boring, so if youll accept some advice from a, to use your phrase, "native English speaker" - get a life.
Chris Oggham
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hello to all,
Please present how you will show TERMINAL FLOAT in the Network or schedule.
The basic in PERT CPM is to find the critical path.
What will become of your critical path if there is terminal float.
Tell me.
Tell the whole planning planet.
Please tell me if approve baseline schedule show contingency, terminal float, hidden float, etc.
I dont think so that consultant or project management will approve baseline programme with contingency, terminal float, hidden float, etc.
Maybe in UK or in England as in Native English Speaking people.
Oliver, Im not jealous with native english speaking nationalities. Im interested in there bizzare ways of propagating superiority in the use of english language, not anymore for them to exploits others since english now is possess by the international community also our beloved planning planet
cheers,
Joseph
Member for
21 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
I rather just call that "Contigency Time", if I am contractor.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hi Guys,
It no longer surprises me how anything Charlie/Joseph doesnt like/agree with/understand is always rubbish/should be rejected/banned. What is quite remarkable is his consistent ability to attribute just about anything to a conspiracy "to promote the superiority of the english language by native born english speakers."
Remarkable certainly, but rapidly becoming extremely tiresome as his pointlessly offensive remarks draw peoples attention away from the purpose of the thread.
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
I sense eith either hatred or jealousy of natural born engligh speakers?
Which one is it?
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
If a contractor chooses to complete a project early then there is a period of time between his planned completion date and the contractual completion date.
If you dont want to call this period terminal float, what do you want to call it?
Its ceratinly some kind of float, the planned completion date being the EF date and the contractual completion date being the LF date.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hello to all,
The term is really rubbish.
ME did not establish the reliability of his research.
If this is accepted Can you imagine this:
Act Id Desc FF TF Terminal Float
1 Exc 10 5 ?????????????
How do you computer terminal float for 25,000 activities.
Is this terminal float taught in English school for example in London bridge????? Can you answer this Chris and David also ME.
Is terminal float taught in Europe or US of A.
NO one know this because this is just an invention to promote the superiority of the english language by native born english speakers.
Cheers,
Joseph
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hi Guys,
I dont have anything much to contribute except to say that Matthew seems to have carried out an extremely thorough investigation. The term itself seems to have been around for a fair while, but on-one seems to know where it came from. Perhaps, as Andrew suggested, its merely a posh name for what he used to call End Float.
What isnt useful, however, is Charlie/Joseph saying that the term should be rejected, that makes no more sense than saying that he rejects rainy days. Nor is it useful for him to make his usual pointless, spiteful remarks about English people.
It would be far better if we followed the original premise of this thread when David set it up and tried to find out where the term came from, what it means and how we can best use it.
Chris Oggham
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hi ME,
For the sake of democracy in this plannet, you can say whatever you want to say.
What have been done with the terminology??
Did any planning software incorporate this terminology in the planning process.
Surely not Primavera or Microsoft Project.
How can this be accepted in our plannet???
Cheers,
Joseph
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
I think I made sense.
We should reject "Terminal Float"
In this way, our understanding of FLOAT will be simple and easy.
It will also make it cheaper to resolve disputes in construction project.
Can you imagine in a dispute or claim situation wherein everyone will be able to resolve the issues and all of a sudden someone practitioner of TERMINAL FLOAT" shouted that resolution will not be possible because of "TERMINAL FLOAT".
This will only be additional money for claim specialist. No resolution will be at hand.
In conclusion we will reject convoluting of "FLOAT" by tweeking english language, the international language (not anymore the sole mastery of native born english).
Cheers,
Joseph
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
i prefer an ice cream over a root beer!
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Guys and gals,
Float is now simply LS-ES or LF-EF. Period as in .
Then, Total Float and Free Float.
Terminal float, external float, internal float, etc.
We could add "float as in float during parade, floating as in swimming in the sea, floating the ship, etc. etc,
Float should only be as per conventional way no convulution of the english language, please in this way there will be no supremacy in the use of the english language.
Im not the racist. Im not propagating the supremacy of individuals in the use of the english language.
English language now is international. The world take possession of this wonderful language.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
I will respond to the substantive points in Heather’s post later but in the mean time I feel I must respond to yet another of Charlie’s racist rants (on completion of this posting I shall report you to the moderators).
Unfortunately Charlie, what you are saying in agreeing with Heathers interpretation is, in fact, developing a new meaning for float, not ‘the old fashioned way’. If you care to take a look at any of the glossaries that define such things I believe you will find that contingency is a purposeful allocation of time or money to take account of unforeseen risks, whereas float is something generated by the logic, durations and sequence of operations.
Anoon… have you considered the ramifications of what you are saying about ownership of float? In this instance I agree with Heather although I think she would have better said “Isn’t float generally used on a first come, first serve basis? Of course it all depends on what the particular contract says but, in my limited experience, I have found contracts that make observations on the ownership of float virtually impossible to administrate effectively. For that reason I think that the NEC suite, in introducing ‘contractors risk allowance’ have overcome some of the problems – it is just unfortunate that some less well-informed commentators have decided to rebadge this ‘terminal float’. In anycase, you have managed to go off-topic again (can’t you concentrate and keep to the subject in hand?) – the thread is about the origins of the term ‘terminal float’.
Again, Charlie, would you care to enlighten us as to the ‘original meaning of the "float"’ and how it had been ‘convuluted by some native born english’ (I assume you mean ‘convoluted by some native born English’). I suspect you were referring to me then (if not who?) – but of course, yet again you arte making assumptions as you know nothing about where I was born, what my mother tongue is or what my ethnicity is.
Even you must be aware that Critical Path Analysis and the like was developed out of researchin the 1950s predominately UK by the ESI for power station construction and in the US for the Polaris programme. As a result the terminology and definitions are essentially in, and were originally in, English.
You will see that the Forum Rules and Guidelines say “Messages should preferably be in English. While the membership is worldwide with many languages represented, it is prefereble to maintain discussions here where the majority of our members can participate.” I am unable to lower my standards to correspond in imprecise language and perhaps the pidgin English you appear to condone. For those who are not aware, I understand Tagalog is one of the major languages of the Republic of the Philippines and along with along with English is the co-official language. However, Wikipedia tells me that English is more prevalent in the fields of government and business.
Charlie, Anoon; there is not an obligation to get involved in every conversation in the forum. May I suggest if you have nothing valid to contribute and just want to snipe at the English speakers here (or even the ‘native born english’) then you do it some place else.
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Joseph,
Once again you are making no sense whatsoever.
Your stupidity in the distasteful comments you make about the English is only surpassed by the lack of project management knowledge you behold.
Oliver
P.S
The only convulution happening is your attempt to speak the Queens English.
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
i suppose it would be best to describe it in Tagalog Charlie..huh?
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Anoon,
Your view will only happen in the event the original meaning of the "float" will not be convuluted by some native born english.
Believe me, for as long as the float will evolve and morph into something which we dont know anymore, ownership of the float will have no meaning.
The best way is to stick to the original meaning and assigned a different word (English - need) maybe japanese, Hindi to new usage of float.
What do you think???
Is there a best way to describe float in Antartica???
Cheers,
Joseph
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
Heather,
In my out of the blue opinion, i disagree that float is to be used on a first come first serve basis, and also disagree that some party in the project team will be authorized to use or own it by itself, Why? For me, Float is intended for the Project itself! and to use it, must be agreed by all Parties! Though it is usually prepared by the Contractor, once the program is approved, they must declare the floats and open it to the Project Team. Then the whole team must decide on what to do about it!
Member for
18 years 6 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
I doubt that the illigitimate use of the terminology has anything to do with nationality, it stems from lack of understanding of the project management lexicon.
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
Charlie,
what are you trying say? who is the leader of the world? does he/she has any relation to Terminal Float?
regards
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Heather,
I agree with you.
We will define float in the old fashion way.
the new definition are inventions of your cousins on the other side of the continent to just propagate there superiority in the use of the english language.
The same that happens in the TIA.
But.... they are influential only in commonwealth countries as an extension of there long lost empire.
the rest of the world follow the leader
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
18 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
I have always tried to keep these things simple. Please let me know if I have this correctly:
Float is time built into the schedule by the contractor to protect himself against his or the owners minor delays during the project. Isnt float used on a first come, first serve basis?
End Float would therefore be the difference between the contact completion date and the actual completion date.
I have never heard the term "Terminal Float" used.
Contingency is a dollar value built into the contractors Estimate/Bid to cover unforseen and/or un-estimated costs or situations. Isnt this usually a standard % of the contract value?
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
David,
Havent come across the use of internal or external float yet - how does he define them?
As for where "terminal float" actually came from, I dont know, "end float" used to be what I called it for several years but I guess thats not posh enough.
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Hello Andrew
Long time no see…
Yes, I know what you say about terminal float but I was asking about the origins of the term. As discussed below it does not actually exist in the NEC suite.
Somewhere along the way there has been conflation of terminal float, contingency and risk allowance (it is the latter that is protected in the NEC). I have a bit of a bee at that moment that non-planners are using our precise language imprecisely and as no-one can be arsed to challenge it ends up becoming received wisdom and dilutes the accuracy of what we do.
KP has also invented a couple of new (in my opinion unnecessary) terms; internal float and external float – which I believe muddy the waters even further!
Regards
David
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Terminal Float
David,
"Terminal float" - is the period between an early completion date that the contractor says he can achieve and the actual contract completion date. The NEC specifically protects this if applicable.
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
David,
I cant think of any reason why you ask if im related to Charlie in any chance? (i supposed youre referring to Charlie Orbe), the answer is No! But what im sure of is that Im more good looking than him in person!
Going back to the topic, there are lots of alternatives but I supposed these alternatives are all contained in the Contract. The Contract, Rigth or Wrong once signed by the concerned parties is the Authority, which means that they have accepted it in the first place. If they found later that theres something in the Contract that is not practicable, then, that I Dont Know!
Raviraj,
My eyes are not working properly and im tired of reading, but thanks anyway.
cheers
Member for
18 years 5 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Anoon,
To clear your doubts, please go through PMBOK, 3rd Edition. Contingencies are never part and parcel of contracts, its the terminology used by the project manamagement team. But, please go through PMBOK and also go through rolling wave planning.
This will definitely clear all your doubts.
Cheers,
Raviraj A Bhedase
Member for
23 years 7 monthsRE: Terminal Float
Anoon
Is there any alternative?
Anyone with any degree of real-world management and scheduling experience will realise that contractors often increase the duration of activities they feel contain risk of not completing according to schedule. In my experience, for instance, piling contractors/subcontractors almost always do this because a plant breakdown or delay in delivery of materials can have a dramatic effect on a crucial activity at the beginning of the project. This is what I mean by covertly adding contingency (which you will see I do not recommend – for a number of reasons).
In the UK, at least, most construction programmes have an activity called, snagging, final clean or pre-handover works. Again, this is usually a way of adding an element of contingency to the end of a programme.
Of course the contractor can add contingency in whatever way he wishes. Being excessive could extend the programme too much and make him uncompetitive and risk not winning the job. But is that worse than winning a job in which there is a great risk you won’t be able to do?
I would have thought a client would think better of a contractor who has allowed contingency, it is more of a guarantee that the project will complete on time. Most clients, I think, would prefer to have a guaranteed later completion date than a risky early completion date.
Sometimes it is useful to think about financial contingencies as an analogy to time contingencies. What is wrong with the contractor adding a bit of risk money into his project (it might make him uncompetitive but that is a chance he calculates). In the same way, a prudent client would have some financial buffer – if not I think he is likely to go bust almost as often as he makes a profit. Canny clients also have time contingencies (that they might not disclose to the contractor) – do you really think it a good idea fro the client to give the contractor a drop-dead date for completion that has no buffer against the time he has promised the facility to, say, a tenant?
So, Anoon… do you still think it wrong for the contractor to add contingency to the programme? Keeping it secret I would say is not good practice but it is far better than having no contingency at all. Do you know of any contracts that say contractors should not allow contingencies?
Are you related to Charlie by any chance?
David
x
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: Terminal Float
All,
Im not sure if these two gentlemen (David & Raviraj) are trying to corrupt my already confused and very little intelligence (forgive me, I just thought I had one).
I happened to work on the Client side at the moment and you are telling me that the PM of the Contractor has all the right to allow "contigency period" or contigencies in any way at his own descrition? I understand that it is always the Contractor whos preparing the program/schedule based on his approved methodologies but to establish his own contigency and hide it from the Project Team is not good to me.
cheers