If I not mistaken, Punchlist will be count after first submit handover with mechanical catalogue / manual of the work area, If not it will call "remaining work checklist". Correct me if wrong.
regards
Member for
20 years 5 months
Member for20 years5 months
Submitted by Raja Izat Raja… on Thu, 2006-07-27 02:16
Puchlist is rework or PONC as we call it in our company. For planning purpose I think we should consider amount of rework to be done when we prepare the overall schedule, maybe 5%, 10%, 15%, or 20% of the duration. The % depends on the experience....
Member for
19 years 10 months
Member for19 years10 months
Submitted by Norzul Ibrahim on Wed, 2006-07-26 22:34
Agreed, however the time, that I include is nominal, based on the intricacy of the job, the quality standards, etc. The problem happens when you receive the punchlists, you can then make a accurate assessment of the time required to correct these items. The first step, is to categorise the items, and we normally use three catgories:
Cat 1: Items that affect safety and Operation, omitted and not per as the design.
Cat 2: Items of concern in safety and operation, but not included in the design.
Cat 3: Items, which is aesthetic, etc.
The point is that you can hand over portions of the job to commissioning, without Cat 3 items being completed, Cat 2 items is items, where decisions need to be made, as to whether they affect commisioning, and are normally split up between cat 1 and 3 as decisions are made. Cat ! are therefore the items to be concetrated on, and cat 2 should be included as seperate activities in the program.
I find the best way to to run this is with a punchlist, with dates, and monitor it on a frequent basis, anything from daily, hourly or weekly meetings, dependant on the urgency of the project.
Regards
Member for
19 years 5 months
Member for19 years5 months
Submitted by James Griffiths on Tue, 2006-07-25 03:55
For clarity ER stands for Employer’s Representative in my post, in others it could be another meaning depending on the definition stated in the contract, but James you got the question right and thanks for your view.
Cheers
Christian
Member for
21 years
Member for21 years
Submitted by Philip Jonker on Sat, 2006-07-22 13:30
I was not insulting you, but admit you were not sure what the question was. Iwas giving advice, clarify what the person was talking about. Your answer may have been right, or if not, a total waste of time, and time is supposed to mean something to us planners.
Regards
Philip
Member for
19 years 5 months
Member for19 years5 months
Submitted by James Griffiths on Sat, 2006-07-22 08:15
It could also mean "Engineering" or "Executive". Regardless, the principle of Christian’s question is the same. If ER is higher-up than you (the Contractor) in the food-chain, then ER can be considered your "client". The principle under-pinning my response remains.
James.
Member for
20 years 5 months
Member for20 years5 months
Submitted by Raja Izat Raja… on Sat, 2006-07-22 08:02
Thankyou for the insult. If, however, you care to read the question, it states that the “contractor has submitted…..should include punch-list.” By most interpretations, the contractor and punch-list author is the team/company that works at the coalface, actually doing the work. Therefore, any “submission” of programmes is more than likely to be upwards in the hierarchical chain of authority, becoming ever-more summarised in the process. It is not really relevant as to precisely who ER is; only that ER is “upwards” in authority relative to the contractor. Using this assumption, Christian’s question was perfectly clear. However, I’m sure that he will clarify any misconceptions on my part.
Over to you, Christian.
James
Member for
21 years
Member for21 years
Submitted by Philip Jonker on Fri, 2006-07-21 16:34
I have this problem, the designers, produce a program, and under the headings Earthwork Lateral Support and Full design Packege, they used the following two abbreviations, ELS and FDP, they used these in their activity descriptions, I imported their programmes, and upon review, their questions was what the abbreviations meant. It was very obvious, just by looking at their WBS, but they could not figure this out. I have started a schedule abbreviations dictionary to assist people like designers to remember their own handiwork. We had to create a wbs for monthly payment milestones, and the logical coding was PMS, imagine the hilarity which followed this one as these are updated once a month, and is very painful.
My suggestion is to Christian, explain what you are talking about, and James do not answer questions you do not understand.
Regards
Philip
Member for
19 years 5 months
Member for19 years5 months
Submitted by James Griffiths on Fri, 2006-07-21 13:44
The validity of the ER’s request really depends on:
1) At what stage of the project you’re at.
2) At what level of detail the “contract programme” resides.
3) Why the ER is asking for such detail.
4) What the contract itself states
Your ER (what does ER stand for?) is probably concerned that the scope of remaining work isn’t particularly well-defined; thus he is asking you to portray your understanding of such work by asking you to provide the punch-lists. Anybody can compile a comparatively high-level programme that looks good but may not be substantiated by the nitty-gritty detail that punch-lists provide. However, I wouldn’t expect that level of detail to reside on a programme….it would be unmanageable.
We have just come through a very similar situation, where our client asked for our detailed programme. The contract programme has about 150 lines and the client seemed to be worried that we didn’t quite have an understanding of what we were doing. In order to “help us” and “offer advice”, he wanted to see what plans we were working to. I explained that he really ought not to ask for this because it contains over 4000 lines and, in the format that he wants it, he would have absolutely no hope of assimilating the data. However, we provided it; he looked at it, said nothing and just carried-on. I can only assume that he was satisfied that we actually had a plan. Of course, we stated that just because it is on the plan, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we will work in exactly the sequence shown; therefore, he (the client) must not attempt to monitor us against such detail.
Ultimately the important thing was that we showed him our plan, walked him through our progress-reporting analysis and showed him our monthly “milestone” punch-list process. This gave him the knowledge and confidence that we did have a process and we knew what we were doing…..it was just that it was taking too bloody long to do it!
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
20% just example...but i think still possible
Member for
20 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi,
If I not mistaken, Punchlist will be count after first submit handover with mechanical catalogue / manual of the work area, If not it will call "remaining work checklist". Correct me if wrong.
regards
Member for
20 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi Norzul,
Yes, MCD is Mechanical Completion Date, not "Man Compete Donkey" who is Cleverest,I hope not miss interpret.
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Puchlist is rework or PONC as we call it in our company. For planning purpose I think we should consider amount of rework to be done when we prepare the overall schedule, maybe 5%, 10%, 15%, or 20% of the duration. The % depends on the experience....
Member for
19 years 10 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Raja,
What is MCD...mechanical completion date?
Member for
21 yearsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi Clive,
Agreed, however the time, that I include is nominal, based on the intricacy of the job, the quality standards, etc. The problem happens when you receive the punchlists, you can then make a accurate assessment of the time required to correct these items. The first step, is to categorise the items, and we normally use three catgories:
Cat 1: Items that affect safety and Operation, omitted and not per as the design.
Cat 2: Items of concern in safety and operation, but not included in the design.
Cat 3: Items, which is aesthetic, etc.
The point is that you can hand over portions of the job to commissioning, without Cat 3 items being completed, Cat 2 items is items, where decisions need to be made, as to whether they affect commisioning, and are normally split up between cat 1 and 3 as decisions are made. Cat ! are therefore the items to be concetrated on, and cat 2 should be included as seperate activities in the program.
I find the best way to to run this is with a punchlist, with dates, and monitor it on a frequent basis, anything from daily, hourly or weekly meetings, dependant on the urgency of the project.
Regards
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Nicely put, Clive.
James.
Member for
20 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi Christ,
actually i have doubt what u say "My question would be, is it necessary to include this items in the programme?".
Actually Punchlist is remaining work which in progress to be done before MCD. My qestion here:
1. What will happen if u include the items, is it will be count your resources twice(mahours, budget)and double job for your scheduling.
Feel uncomfortable not to tell about this. until cannot sleep.
regards
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Christian: Thankyou.
Philip,
Now that you have a clarification, do you have a view?
James.
Member for
21 yearsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi Christian,
Hopefully in future, you will clarify these things in your first posting, to prevent confusion. Thanks for your reply and clarification.
Regards
Philip
Member for
22 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi Fellows
For clarity ER stands for Employer’s Representative in my post, in others it could be another meaning depending on the definition stated in the contract, but James you got the question right and thanks for your view.
Cheers
Christian
Member for
21 yearsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi James,
I was not insulting you, but admit you were not sure what the question was. Iwas giving advice, clarify what the person was talking about. Your answer may have been right, or if not, a total waste of time, and time is supposed to mean something to us planners.
Regards
Philip
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Ha, ravin’ ha, Rajat, :-)
It could also mean "Engineering" or "Executive". Regardless, the principle of Christian’s question is the same. If ER is higher-up than you (the Contractor) in the food-chain, then ER can be considered your "client". The principle under-pinning my response remains.
James.
Member for
20 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi,
If i not mistaken ER means Estimator or to much influence watching "Emergency Room" series. He he he...
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Philip,
Thankyou for the insult. If, however, you care to read the question, it states that the “contractor has submitted…..should include punch-list.” By most interpretations, the contractor and punch-list author is the team/company that works at the coalface, actually doing the work. Therefore, any “submission” of programmes is more than likely to be upwards in the hierarchical chain of authority, becoming ever-more summarised in the process. It is not really relevant as to precisely who ER is; only that ER is “upwards” in authority relative to the contractor. Using this assumption, Christian’s question was perfectly clear. However, I’m sure that he will clarify any misconceptions on my part.
Over to you, Christian.
James
Member for
21 yearsRE: Punchlist Items
Hi guys,
I have this problem, the designers, produce a program, and under the headings Earthwork Lateral Support and Full design Packege, they used the following two abbreviations, ELS and FDP, they used these in their activity descriptions, I imported their programmes, and upon review, their questions was what the abbreviations meant. It was very obvious, just by looking at their WBS, but they could not figure this out. I have started a schedule abbreviations dictionary to assist people like designers to remember their own handiwork. We had to create a wbs for monthly payment milestones, and the logical coding was PMS, imagine the hilarity which followed this one as these are updated once a month, and is very painful.
My suggestion is to Christian, explain what you are talking about, and James do not answer questions you do not understand.
Regards
Philip
Member for
19 years 5 monthsRE: Punchlist Items
Christian,
The validity of the ER’s request really depends on:
1) At what stage of the project you’re at.
2) At what level of detail the “contract programme” resides.
3) Why the ER is asking for such detail.
4) What the contract itself states
Your ER (what does ER stand for?) is probably concerned that the scope of remaining work isn’t particularly well-defined; thus he is asking you to portray your understanding of such work by asking you to provide the punch-lists. Anybody can compile a comparatively high-level programme that looks good but may not be substantiated by the nitty-gritty detail that punch-lists provide. However, I wouldn’t expect that level of detail to reside on a programme….it would be unmanageable.
We have just come through a very similar situation, where our client asked for our detailed programme. The contract programme has about 150 lines and the client seemed to be worried that we didn’t quite have an understanding of what we were doing. In order to “help us” and “offer advice”, he wanted to see what plans we were working to. I explained that he really ought not to ask for this because it contains over 4000 lines and, in the format that he wants it, he would have absolutely no hope of assimilating the data. However, we provided it; he looked at it, said nothing and just carried-on. I can only assume that he was satisfied that we actually had a plan. Of course, we stated that just because it is on the plan, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we will work in exactly the sequence shown; therefore, he (the client) must not attempt to monitor us against such detail.
Ultimately the important thing was that we showed him our plan, walked him through our progress-reporting analysis and showed him our monthly “milestone” punch-list process. This gave him the knowledge and confidence that we did have a process and we knew what we were doing…..it was just that it was taking too bloody long to do it!
HTH.
James.