Ethics or Interests...???

AS A PLANNER WOULD YOU ACCEPT A POSITION IN BURMA?

oSCAR

Clive,



I agree with what you say, and by highlighting the actions of Bob Geldorf and Bono, you pointed to another ethical question. Is it ethical for people to pursue their own aims, no matter how laudable, at the expense of the majority?



I’m really not sure.



Chris Oggham

To add fuel to the fire (groan). Perhaps it’s worth exploring Mazlow’s Hierarchy-of-Needs. A perfect example of this is Bill Gates. He has satisfied every physical element of self-interest (except perhaps to be thought of as God Almighty), so he’s using his fortune for more philanthropic purposes. Contrarily though, you could argue that, in fact, he’s not being altruistic but actually seeking the ultimate self-interest in wanting to be immortalised. Howsoever you perceive it, you cannot discount the fact that, even if he’s is seeking immortality, the means by which he is pursuing the goal serves extremely useful purposes in terms of improving societal conditions throughout a number of continents. Yet again, though, you could also argue that by improving the standard of life in the under-developed world, thus creating longer life-spans, you are adding to the pressure for the world’s natural and agricultural resources, thus condemning the rest of the world to a slightly poorer standard. As the balance of population further increases in favour of the developing world, at what point do we shout "foul".....and allow the Darwinian theory to institute the natural balance of species - survival of the fittest etc? Taken to its logical conclusion, you could are that, by being ethical, altruistic, philanthropic towards our fellow men, you are initiating the demise of the human species. How ethical is that?

James



Excellent post.



Nige

Mark,



You’re now asking a question regarding ethical behaviour as opposed to previously expressing a view that certain sectors were unethical. Which way are you playing this?



As I’m playing Devil’s Advocate, I’m encouraging you to expand on your earlier statement which expressed the view as opposed to your latest posting that posed the question.



I agree that, in Life, the Universe and The Restaurant At The End Of The Galaxy, there are issues of morality and ethics. The question is: how far do we take it? Where do we draw-the-line at what is or isn’t acceptable. Personally, it never will be a black/white issue, owing to the fact that society is constantly evolving, thus the moral standards and ethics that were a testament to earlier generations will also need to evolve in line with the latest thinking. If you attempt to think back to earlier periods in history, there seems to be a general tendency to wear the rose-tinted glasses. However, when you look at the reality of daily life for Mr.Average, it must have been a Hell-hole of disease, starvation, violence and generally disgusting environmental & social conditions....yet we didn’t have the A-bomb, petro-chem industries et al. We all whinge about modern society being morally bankrupt, but from one perspective, self/commercial interest has ultimately generated the economic expansion that eventually flows-through to almost all areas of society and helps improve the general standard of living.



To cite one particular example that was on TV only last night, regarding the UK’s "energy-gap". In London, a wind-farm was refused planning-permission on the Thames Estuary, owing to the fact that the cable, running onto the shore, would have been in a wildlife haven. Question: Shall we allow the lights to go out, just because of a few animals? Is this considered self-interest, communal interest or commercial interest? Perhaps the "commercial interest" actually enables you to fulfill your own self-interest and survival instinct, yet you might assuage your feelings of moral contravention by proxy and "blame-the-world". How many animals do we have to slaughter to enable our own species to survive? Are you a believer in the Darwinian theory? If so, then, at the moment, we are the fittest species, so we shall survive until we destroy ourselves or another species takes over. Perhaps you believe that everything is pre-ordained; I don’t know; you tell me. A belief in one theory may pre-judge the possibility that ethics, per se, is purely a figment of the imagination.



The ball’s in your court, Mark. Give us a clue.



Cheers.



James.

Is it ethical to build nuclear power stations? Is it ethical to build atomic bombs? Is it ethical to test drugs on animals? Is it ethical for banks to earn interest on our money when we transfer electronically money to another account? Is it ethical for one of the big oil companies to dump an ex-platform in the middle of the sea?





All companies have ethical issues? Most of the above we live with and that’s where are morals come in to play and even then greed and lifestyle for most outweigh the moral issue. I can certainly say that greed, lifestyle or/and ignorance has won the day many times.

Mark,



I can’t argue with what you say.



On a slightly different note, you made a very sweeping statement in that the nuclear power stations, petrochem and defence sectors are unethical. By all means expand on that statement, as I’m sure that PP members would love to hear your substantiation.



James.

I think most of us would think we are ethically minded but when the push comes to the shove often we ignore our ethical ideals.



For example, most of us believe the government should spend more on public transport and try to reduce polution. But how many of us own cars and even two cars in the household? There are many 4x4’s on the road but some think that ability to have a better view outways the environmental damages of the beast. Even if the government impoved public transport the majority of us would still go by car because of the convience.



I see the same is true working for unethical firms like nuclear power stations, petrol chemical companys, drugs firms, defence, etc. I’ve worked for a couple of sectors here.



Finally, my current job was taken purely on convience to home and in my area of expertise and defintely not for money reasons.

Took current post about a year ago as it’s very local (about 800yds door to door :o)), and we had a baby on the way.

Was offered a different post a Christmas for more cash, but a little further away... fortunately, decision was made easy as current employer’s matched the cash. Offered another post for more cash, and just as local about a month back and turned it down.

Reason? I’m currently working almost entirely on bids and tenders here, and it’s really interesting and challenging work, I get the opportunity to do all the super whizzy problem solving and thinking around problems to make our offers fit Clients’ timescales, without the day to day grind of reporting and other snooze worthy activities.

I didn’t want to give up all that, to go somewhere I’d be stuck in front of a VDU all week (having spoken to some of the guys who were already there) for an extra few £/hr.

No regrets, although the cash would’ve been nice ;o)

Mr R,



I saw the word "ethics" in this posting and gave it a body swerve as I have been morally bankrupt since leaving Monaco.

Still, in my wake lies a trail of rotting skeletons and demoralised men.

Temporary roots in Aker Brygge Olso and commuting Trondheim, Stavanger, Aberdeen and Glen Tanar.



Have only scanned through this thread. Will get up to speed and sharpen my pencil soon.

OK Clive, since you insist,(see #12)



I’m one of Charlie’s alien labourers, started as a shipwright and took the scenic route with time as a draughtsman, industrial radiographer, work study engineer and finally into a planning office.



This was thirty years ago so there were no computers to assist the planning process, everything done by hand. I must have been doing something right as I got promoted and got stuck with a wonderful project to bring the company’s management training into the 20th century. No-one else wanted anything to do with it, but I quite enjoyed it.



After that moved to a new company, got into IT, short duration projects, time critical, but money and other resources didn’t seem to matter, didn’t like that much. Messed about a bit, spent some time with a publishing company, not a well-known one, but it paid the mortgage.



Finally ended up where I am now with a team that provides specialised project and planning support.



That’s about it really, nothing special.



Chris Oggham

James



Include me out. Have fiddled.



Anyone else?

Ok, OK. Hands-up all those who have NEVER fiddled a report.

James



I know what my price is. Been offered several high paying jobs and refused them. I know that someone else will take them regardless of the implications.



I would not knowingly work for a drug outfit, but have worked for corrupt regimes and companies. Sometimes you don’t find things out until it is too late and sometimes you MAY be able to change things. All one can hope to do is not get involved and refuse bribes, threats and the like. But when you get a knife pulled on you in a progress meeting or are threatened with being shot, it does get a little difficult.



So to refer to my previous post, what price ethics? How far do you take it? How far down the line do you go? Never work overseas as there is corruption? Never work for a pharmaceutical company as they may use animals? How about a boss that is racist or sexist? What about a homosexual? I’ve worked for all of them at one time or another. Does that make me bad? I don’t think so. (Feel free to disagree)



Doesn;t it come down to degrees? Just what are you NOT prepared to do? Fudge a report? Fiddle the progress? Ignore the racism? Ignore the corruption? Join in with all that?



You tell me...I know my price... and it is high

Nigel,



Until you are put in a position, you can’t say how big a role the ethics will play.



Scenario: You’re offered a job, as a planner, knowing full-well that the company is strongly suspected of being a front for laundering drug-money. If you start working for them, there is a possibility that you could be exposed to "privilged information". We all know what happens if you "join the firm".



Remember; you always have a choice. You might not like the choices. However, we also all have a price. Any idea what yours is?



James.

If you have committments, and no other choice, how big a role can ethics play?



And FYI - took present job because...better company, more dosh, closer to home and will "improve my town".



Nige

Oooops, Sorry Clive. I meant Chris.



Episode 2 will be posted when the insomniacs have recovered and are ready for another dose of "Bertie Guff’s Road To World Domination"......ZZZzzzz.

Ok Clive.,,.but my story is somewhat boring and straight-forward.



Once upon a time…….



Four years ago, I was subbying and the contract was coming to an end. At the same time, the company was in the process of introducing a New Age of Planning & Data Integration via the introduction of Project Central et al, thus enabling engineers to book their timesheets directly onto programme tasks. The PM would have direct control over their programmes and the MD could delve into the company profits/forecasts via the live data that resided in the project programme files. This would place an enormous emphasis on getting the programmes right and introduce a cultural shock. Considering that there were only two specialist planners in the company, including me, then that had the potential to place me in a very influential position. I could see that the company was ripe-for-change, and it would be one heck of an opportunity to be part of that change, applying my specialist skills to develop the planning culture and improve the company’s project execution process ie. to GET-IT-RIGHT.



Living only 4 miles from home, which I’ve owned for 18 years, and having a 2-year-old, with another on the way, I concluded that, if I could “get-that-job” then I’d be in an absolutely fantastic position both professionally and personally: Very low mortgage, reasonable pay, professionally rewarding and challenging, without excessive stress levels, minimal travelling, home every night. What more could I ask for? So, negotiations began. The company had its “programmes-don’t-work” characters, both of whom were department heads. However, as Project Central was being driven-from-the-top, I felt that they would have no option but to adopt the new practices. On the whole, I liked most of the people and got on well with them. The office was dynamic and buzzing and I genuinely felt that I was on the verge of all-my-Christmas’-coming-at-once. I felt inspired.



In the interim, I was offered another permanent job with a 40% higher salary; a salary that, apparently, exceeded the roof of the company’s scale. However, that would mean having to move, tripling the mortgage (for not much improvement in my social environment) taking a “conventional job” with no obvious prospects for professional development, and running a programme in the “old-way”. Essentially it was a step into the unknown, if not somewhat backwards, without any obvious professional or personal benefit apart from the possible job-security. Even the office complex was sterile. The strange thing was; the interviewer, therefore my would-be-boss, was an old class-mate with whom I’d had no contact for 30 years. Talking to him, I felt strangely comfortable….in fact it was almost too comfortable and I wondered whether I was likely to say something that was out-of-turn. It was going to be difficult to determine where the relationship boundaries were likely to be drawn.



In summary: Staying where I am, I could see greater potential for professional development without necessarily compromising my existing personal circumstances, being the stingy-git I am. If it failed, I wouldn’t be a slave to the mortgage. The fact that the other job was 40% higher in salary would have been eaten-up by the increase in mortgage, so there was no immediate nett financial benefit by moving. On further analysis, there were no obvious benefits at all. OK, it would have been a good fall-back if my current company hadn’t come-up-with-the-goods but eventually they did.



Ethics per se didn’t really figure, as I don’t think that anyone could accuse my would-be-boss of milking the old-boys-network, even though I was offered a job that was massively outside the company’s scale. I certainly would not have felt guilty in any way, shape or form. There were many other candidates on offer, and I hadn’t had any contact with him since I left school, so why should he choose me for anything other than professional reasons. However, the move would have been “comfortable-but-boring” so I really wasn’t inspired, there was nothing to gain.



Professionally, the reality has turned-out very differently, so watch-out for next week’s exciting episode……!



James :-)

Interesting idea! Since it’s yours, James, why don’t you start?



Regards



Chris Oggham

Dear Planners,



Why don’t we all start by each of us letting PP know the reason why we accepted our current jobs and what factors were considered? Now that might just cause us to examine our own self-beliefs.......and might turn us all into hypocrites.



Who’s gonna start?



James :-)

Chris,



This is very subjective, it all depends on what does the company policy say, does OIC has the authority to hire any one or a public advertisement should be given????



If it does not voilate the Company Policy, I believe there is nothing wrong in hiring some one you know is good for the position rather than trying someone new.



Just my thought on this.



Regards,



Anees

I dont get it, it could be one of them. depends how they open the recruitment advertisement or being interview.

Christ,

yes, you were right, but on second thought the other way around,could be.... they will open the job for the experienced and for their relative which already have a job right now for the fresh grad and jobless they will loose the opportunity, other thing for other company they will loose their asset which they already trained for years.

From my point of view.

Interesting hypothesis, but interests and ethics aren’t the only things to be considered surely? Economics, location, working hours, self-esteem. You’ve really opened a can of worms with this one!



Chris Oggham