My good friend Steve has regrettably left Primavera Australia and is now in a senior but non-PM related position. So I doubt that he is still reading these posts. But I have no doubt that his overall knowledge about Primavera remains unequalled by most or all of the rest of us here.
Steve Keys has provided the complete explanation on what it entails to have an evaluation installed. I stand corrected on any misconception my short message may have conveyed.
As a PAR employee (and former Primavera employee) I must contradict the last post. PARs are NOT allowed to installed their NFR (not for resale) copies of Primavera software on behalf of clients or prospects.
However, at their discretion, PARs may order an evaluation copy of Primavera software with a standard configuration including all modules and with a time bombed license (typically 30 days). You will find that a good PAR will likely insist on the client / prospect undertaking some formal training and / or professional services assistance during the evaluation process.
This is to ensure the proper and effective transfer of knowledge from both an application and technology perspective, and to make sure there is a proper commitment on both sides to a fair and appropriate evaluation process, with associated success criteria.
Demo CDs, on the other hand, do not exist (and rightly so, I might add).
Mario is right to point out the fact that users can upgrade to Primavera v5 from P3 and undertake an evaluation period to determine the best fit for purpose, and you can find out more at http://www.primavera.com/customer/products/p3upgrade_faq.asp.
However even during this process I would strongly recommend that you engage your local PAR for assistance during implementation and at the very least undertake some form of re-orientation training on the new application.
Those familiar with P3 will appreciate some help navigating the different User Interface, and in general you will be able learn more about some of the new features available in v5 to make a more informed choice.
Member for
22 years 4 months
Member for22 years4 months
Submitted by Jorge Taguinod on Tue, 2006-01-03 02:59
Is a demo (or time limited) version of the P3ec v5.0 available? I need to check with my own eyes how good that import/export issue has been resolved before I suggest an upgrade here.
I have a PDF file about migrating from P3 v3.x to version which may be of interest to you. It addresses the issues you are talking about. The initial structuring of a project is critical to the project in the long term, and if it is not done properly in the first place, the planning will become a horrendous nightmare in time. This is obviously directly proportianate with the size of the project. The project I am involved with at present has about sixty to 80 sub-projects, and each one will require dedicated planning if we are to achieve success. This does not even take into account the problem of resourcing all these sites, and how to find the manpower to effect it.
Primavera V5 has solved a lot of these problems, both in breakdown structures, as well as ease of use such as coding, etc.
However, we are still researching "line of Balance" or chainage vs time programs to integrate with V5, if you have any ideas it would be appreciated.
Regards
Philip
Member for
22 years 4 months
Member for22 years4 months
Submitted by Jorge Taguinod on Wed, 2005-11-23 22:12
Ive read about the new features in P5, and a large volume of the new features manual was dedicated to Past Period Actuals (PPA). Its so organized that its quite scary to use. I think that to properly implement managing PPA in P5, one has to first develop a plan/procedure/guideline. Implementing the use of PPA without a formal document addressing your projects/organizations need poses a lot of risks against having to redo it. I believe you cant just use this on the fly.
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
21 years
Member for21 years
Submitted by Philip Jonker on Wed, 2005-11-23 14:01
Hi Mario, the Imp0/Exp facilities are greatly improved, you are quite right, there is still some problens with importing and exporting things like calendars and the like. These issurs are easily resolved by the creation of dummy projects where you make the calendars global, and then sending these. After importing the projects, just delete them, and the calendars abd code structures remain
Regards
Member for
21 years
Member for21 years
Submitted by Philip Jonker on Wed, 2005-11-23 13:51
Thanks, and V5 has these options, you will be amazed that you do not have to be a d_base expert, and it creates templates for use in excel, for D_base ignoramuses, with instructions, about what to do.
Regards
Member for
21 years
Member for21 years
Submitted by Philip Jonker on Wed, 2005-11-23 13:46
I would suggest that until such time as "Forum Guests" (of one type or another) declare themselves (and quite possibly their interests) we are faced with a rum debate of little merit or equality.
Member for
22 years 8 months
Member for22 years8 months
Submitted by Brennan Westworth on Tue, 2005-11-22 21:55
Leaving P3 is a sad thing, but you can now skip a step and move to V5. it is a bit like going from the ice age to global warming. They have sorted out the bugs in P3ec, and in version 5 have actually brought about a workable solution that is better. So [deleted by Moderator] go for some new technology. I became a grandfather today, thanks to Erik Jonker a member, and am still learning. So just get on with it and learn more.
Regards
Philip
Member for
22 years 4 months
Member for22 years4 months
Submitted by Jorge Taguinod on Wed, 2005-10-26 04:28
One of the problems with trying to improve P3 3.1 (aside from it being 16-bit) is the database it uses -- Btrieve. P5 can now use either Oracle, Interbase or MSDE.
The new database can handle longer fields (like activity names, activity IDs, more custom data items...). I remember being frustrated not being able to transfer complete activity descriptions as shown in in the contract into P3. PE can now do this.
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
22 years 4 months
Member for22 years4 months
Submitted by Jorge Taguinod on Wed, 2005-10-26 04:21
I think that since everyone is at ease -- in love? :) -- with P3 3.1, it would be much cheaper and practical to maintain 1 computer dedicated for P3 3.1. That way you can upgrade all the other software that you have (Excel, etc.) while maintaining P3 as your preferred PM tool.
Needless to say (but im saying it anyway), youll be maintaining Win 98/XP/etc. that can run P3. Thats it. You can wire the P3 computer with the new one running the new OS so that you can share files (like when you want to import/export) to and from Excel. Or better, you may want to also maintain old versions of Excel (+ Word, + whatever software you want to run on the old PC), so you wont have to switch PCs everytime you want to run Excel and P3.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
22 years 8 months
Member for22 years8 months
Submitted by Brennan Westworth on Thu, 2004-08-19 12:39
Thank you. I just confirmed he is a coworker. Your help will be appreciated.
Not only highliting the pros of P3e/P3 is good as well as the cons. but also includding pros of other softwares might proove usefull as long as we keep focused on the main topic.
There is an interesting option in a Russian Software - "Spider", they include Line Diagrams into their software.
Im sorry guest, I do not have access to P3e at the moment.
Just a thought for you tho... I assume you are logging onto P3e as the same user each time. As i understand that each user account has their own baseline information.
BTW Progress in baselines causes problems in P3 too
[EDIT] We have gotten off topic... Ill take a look at your thread in the P3e section
Member for
23 years
Member for23 years
Submitted by Steven Oliver on Thu, 2004-08-19 07:48
In the P3e Category there is a thread under the title of "wrong baseline". We have noticed this before. To isolate the problem we created a 3 activities schedule, made it a baselinte and then updated the baseline to; one activity completed, a second activity say at 50% and a third activity not started yet. We observed the same weird result.
We even blindly tried to move the relative position of the bars, a procedure that works for other traps, but it did not worked.
Would you please run the 3 activities job and provide us with a solution? We need a solution as we are using both products P3 and P3e. We submit our monthly report to the Government Agency with a P3e Summary Schedule. We are about to ask the Network Manager to re-install the prior version of P3e on the Network.
We have previously found answers to our problems in this forum, it is usually much faster and easier than calling Primavera.
Member for
22 years 8 months
Member for22 years8 months
Submitted by Brennan Westworth on Thu, 2004-08-19 00:47
i was only using acrobat as an example of the problems P3 has interfacing with modern software.
I totally agree that we should never stop looking at and assessing alternatives to Primavera (gota keep em on their toes) but we should also take a proactive roll in letting primavera know how they can improve their product. I have found them to be open to suggestions.
P3e has come a long way since its first beta release, I think that within a couple of years we will end up with a product that far surpasses P3.
I will follow your suggestion, first will try service pack 2 for windows xp pro. when available then in a near future will upgrade to acrobat 6.0 either standard or pro.
Sorry to interrupt, but what trouble are you having with Acrobat? Service Pack 2 addressed the default printer issue and as long as your print directory is 8 characters or less and no more than 5 directories deep it should work like a normal printer. We recently upgraded to Acrobat 6.0 Pro and now the 8 character print directory is no longer an issue either (at least not on Win XP).
Mr Breenan, honestly you are right in every regard:
-We had played with p3e and recommend everyone else to do it before making critical decisions.
-We have realized it is not an upgrade to P3 and got dissapointed, similar names P3 vs. P3e is misleading. P3e is another product.
-We are looking for a sustitute for P3, we know of the issues with Acrobat. This issue is very important to us.
-We know P3 is, or is to become, "outdated" by the mere fact it is not a 32 bit application.
That’s why we are looking for a substitute, science P3e do not make the grade, based on our needs, we must look elsewere.
Suretrak although being a 32 bit application ,falls short of our expectations as a substitute to P3, good enough to half of our Contractors. The combination of P3 and Suretrack gave us flexibility the same way Primavera Contractor will do to P3e. We must look for a substitute that provides similar flexibility.
Member for
22 years 8 months
Member for22 years8 months
Submitted by Brennan Westworth on Wed, 2004-08-18 02:50
Yes I did read the posts "guest". The general feeling i got was people had played with P3e for a while, realised that it wasn’t P3 and got uncomfortable.
I personally think that although P3 is a good "tool" (and remember that when comes down to it P3 is to a planneer that which a calculator is to an engineer) it is quite outdated. one only has to try interfacing it with modern software (like adobe acrobat) to uncover the instability of its anchient engine.
The P3 community is right to push primavera to improve its product, but please take a proactive approach.
Anyway it is very hard to know who we talk to and if there is any point to cont. the discussion. Since you initial comments. Cant track back who or wehen... it seem that you still cannot substainate exactly why you cannot use P3e. Cost (They are about the same in a new user point of view), Learning Curve (Any new software you have to learn), Training (As above), Easy of use(That becomes very subjective and personal), or just too different from P3??
I dont think we can discuss in a healthy way until you present yourself. Again it is your personal perference.
"I’m just making a point that if something is not broken, don’t fix it"
Then keep windows XP and P3 for the rest of your planning career.
I on the other hand would like to support companies (like primavera) that are developing their planning software. The opinion that "P3 is the pinacle of project planning software, we will never need more than that" is ridiculous.
I have used P3 and P3e professionally and can say without hesitation that P3e has some great features that make my life easier and allow me to work more efficiently. Im not saying that it is a perfect product, but the number of new versions since its initial release shows that primavera is committed to constantly improving their product.
It goes further than personal taste. It should be a decision based on your real needs. Science this is an issue related to P3 and P3e all opinions are welcome. I just hope Primavera is litsening as well as those evaluating the alternatives.
You must do appropiate research to make sure the product is what you need. Do some trial runs using real data and real procedures for updating, tranfering files, comparing files, cost load and resource load the schedules, work with baselines and finally run all required reports.
Our contractors submit every month an updated schedule in electronic form, we must compare the updated version with the prior version to make sure it is valid, to make sure the contractor is not using float supression techniques to favor their claims.
These schedules are used by our Contractors to sustain their delay claims and time extension request. The owner requires to justify time extension using the CPM in order to approve Change Orders for time extension or Extended Overhead. Usually time extensions are due to unforseen conditions, not necesarelly the Contractor’s fault. To us it is important, extremelly important, what software will be required in our contracts.
The truth is Contractors are sometimes reluctant to the imposition of the software, their opinion must be taken into account. Sometimes they compain that they use other software, that the imposed software is expensive, that the sofware is difficult to learn, that the software requires them to use an outside consultant witout the required engineering background shifting control from their project manager to an outsider... and the list goes on.
After two years of using P3 and P3e we still require them to submit thir schedules in P3 format using either P3 or Suretrak.
The other forum guest may have a different opinion with me in regards to, he wants to replace P3 by an alternative software but not P3e. With me, ill stick with P3 but upgrading must continue, i dont want to migrate to another platform such as P3e. The reason is simple, im comfortable with P3. It is effective and i find it very useful. Yes it has limitations, thats why I want it upgraded only to cope up with these limitations.
What Primavera did was it brought down the whole house and build a new one. But it is still the same house, with added features.
But I guess this is all water under the bridge, Im just expressing my opinion on the subject.
Good that you xpress your point of view. I guess some people want a 4x4 some people want to use bus. Company choice. If a company never have a vehicle before. It is good to have a bus. However, if everyone in the company is already using a car. It is very hard to ask them to change to a bus. Please do understand that it is not to do with the bus of car itself it is just a personal preference. And your personal preference is very clear. However, I guess there is room for others to view the different size of the picture. Everything have a pro and con, individual have to evulate how it apply to them. Thats why lot of IT company love P3e. Becasuse they never have one and cost traing, & acceptance is not an issue.
If we needed enterprise stuff we would have converted long ago, as enterprise scheduling has been available long ago.
I dislike P3e because is not friendly to stand alone projects, is not like P3, when you import files you get everything your counterpart is looking at. If you represent the owner, you want this.
Again the basics arithmetic. On average 400 activities per 12 million dollars job, P3 on 100,000 activities yields a Project Group of 250 projects, all sharing resources. That is "a mere 3 Billion in US Dollars", again fortunatelly we can spread our jobs in separate Project Groups, this way we could handdle hundreds of Billions. Got it, is not statistics, is a matter of need, is a matter of software cost, is a matter of the learning curve applied to the whole enterprise, is a matter of simplicity.
P3 has more than the vast majority need. CPM is not the only tool, Job Costing is another important tool usually integrated into accounting, who wants to dupplicate this effort? Contractor’s need the whole story, costs related to units in a meningfull way. Earned Value only provides 50%, yes it is a simplification, enough for one time shots or for other businesess where management is not concerned with unit costs but other approach to Budgetting. Contractor’s prefer to keep scheduling simple. The point is, not everybody needs all the CPM tools available nor all the tools in a CPM are enough.
Both programs P3 and P3e do the basics and more, is not an issue of statistics. Is on the whole idea the issue, they are two different approaches to scheduling.
Although a School Bus (P3e)can handdle more passengers I still prefer my utility vehicle (P3), with the 4x4 available when it rains at the jobsite.
We as government consultants must be responsive to both side needs, these are General Construction Contractors in one side and the Government Agency at the other side.
It is a fact we must look for a replacement for P3, definitivelly it is not P3e.
I still dont understand what P3e that makes you so uncomfortable. If you read the forum there is 50 / 50 in the like and dislike zone. You will then ask why?? I guess it is all related to change management. At least that is what I think. Can you list out the stuff that you cannot do in P3e so that we can share your view. - BTW as I mentioned in last few message there is a current category in Planning Planet discuss this topic in more details
It wont fill the void to our needs. I have no doubt it will still be annoying judging from a screen available at the primavera Site and comparing to a P3e screen. Though we will give it a chance and eventually run it side by side with P3 and P3e.
No doubt it will fill the void for those in need of a scalable solution under P3e. A real need for some, or shall I say a "few". No doubt the "few" is a good market.
We are not in this market.
Member for
22 years 10 months
Member for22 years10 months
Submitted by Ronald Winter on Mon, 2004-08-16 11:28
You see alex, as you said anything is possible in programming its just a matter of cost benefit. If Primavera has decided not to upgrade to P3 I dont mind. Im just making a point that if something is not broken, dont fix it. Perhaps after ten years, Primavera would change again its format, telling us the same reason, its just a matter of cost benefit for programming. Arent we being too generous to a vendor if we just follow what they offered us?
But to tell you frankly, Im not convinced with your answers, I tend to believe more the reason by other forum guest.
"In real software term, it is very difficult to change the 16 bit technology to a 32 or 64 bit technology and that’s why Primavera do not want to re-programme the software application(P3)" - Are you expert on this? Yes P3 data base is currently on a string method and is only allow to have 64 characters. Thats why you cannot have too long Activity ID and Description. Anything is possible in programming, just whether the cost benefit can support that. And I think Primavera is already made the decision.
"Changing platform is not the issue, just there is no room to growth in P3 and that is why Primavera have to develop a alternated product P3e, team play or P3e/c (they are same)to takeover the existing 10 years old product" - Are you sure about this expecially the no room for growth part?
See above, comments, anything is possible, ie try to introduce a structured code system in P3. Almost impossible with the way the database is currently setting. Guess why Primavera already annonce they are not going to enhance P3. Do you think that they will run the decision without a cost benefit analysis.
IMHO, the upgrading of software has to do with commercial issues (i.e. for the vendor to keep raking on profits). Why do you think that car manufacturers have to introduce new models every year when we know that the car we bought could last more than a year?
Member for
19 years 3 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
My good friend Steve has regrettably left Primavera Australia and is now in a senior but non-PM related position. So I doubt that he is still reading these posts. But I have no doubt that his overall knowledge about Primavera remains unequalled by most or all of the rest of us here.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
of course Steve is on the spot.
being one of the director of Primavera Australia, he explain it well..
^^
Alex
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Steve Keys has provided the complete explanation on what it entails to have an evaluation installed. I stand corrected on any misconception my short message may have conveyed.
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
20 years 2 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
As a PAR employee (and former Primavera employee) I must contradict the last post. PARs are NOT allowed to installed their NFR (not for resale) copies of Primavera software on behalf of clients or prospects.
However, at their discretion, PARs may order an evaluation copy of Primavera software with a standard configuration including all modules and with a time bombed license (typically 30 days). You will find that a good PAR will likely insist on the client / prospect undertaking some formal training and / or professional services assistance during the evaluation process.
This is to ensure the proper and effective transfer of knowledge from both an application and technology perspective, and to make sure there is a proper commitment on both sides to a fair and appropriate evaluation process, with associated success criteria.
Demo CDs, on the other hand, do not exist (and rightly so, I might add).
Mario is right to point out the fact that users can upgrade to Primavera v5 from P3 and undertake an evaluation period to determine the best fit for purpose, and you can find out more at http://www.primavera.com/customer/products/p3upgrade_faq.asp.
However even during this process I would strongly recommend that you engage your local PAR for assistance during implementation and at the very least undertake some form of re-orientation training on the new application.
Those familiar with P3 will appreciate some help navigating the different User Interface, and in general you will be able learn more about some of the new features available in v5 to make a more informed choice.
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Actually, PARS (at their discretion) can install Primavera Enterprise for interested clients. This license expires every end of March.
So if youre a good sales lead, they may decide to install a fully working Primavera license.
Happy convincing...
Member for
20 years 7 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Thank you very much to all who have replied to my last post.
Ill talk with our PAR.
:)
Member for
20 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Until this day, Primavera is not offering demo version of 5.0.
Member for
22 years 10 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Dear GUN
You have to check with your PAR. Some times if they feels you are committed to purchase software, they may offer you with a demo software.
Otherwsie you can ask them for a hands on working demo.
Cheers!
Member for
20 years 7 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Is a demo (or time limited) version of the P3ec v5.0 available? I need to check with my own eyes how good that import/export issue has been resolved before I suggest an upgrade here.
Member for
20 years 2 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Yes
Member for
20 years 7 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Question: is this P3 v5 you are talking about in fact P3ec v5.0 ?
Best wishes. :)
Member for
20 years 7 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
I was going to start a thread for the following simple question.
=>importing in P3ec.
but thanks to you I now know there is better.
I have to get it!
I have to use it. I have to learn its insides.
thats the best news I have had P3 related for ages.
its been veeerrryyyyy long in comming.
do they offer student discounts? anyone?
Thank you for the news.
:))
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Jorge,
I have a PDF file about migrating from P3 v3.x to version which may be of interest to you. It addresses the issues you are talking about. The initial structuring of a project is critical to the project in the long term, and if it is not done properly in the first place, the planning will become a horrendous nightmare in time. This is obviously directly proportianate with the size of the project. The project I am involved with at present has about sixty to 80 sub-projects, and each one will require dedicated planning if we are to achieve success. This does not even take into account the problem of resourcing all these sites, and how to find the manpower to effect it.
Primavera V5 has solved a lot of these problems, both in breakdown structures, as well as ease of use such as coding, etc.
However, we are still researching "line of Balance" or chainage vs time programs to integrate with V5, if you have any ideas it would be appreciated.
Regards
Philip
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Congratulations, Philip! :)
Ive read about the new features in P5, and a large volume of the new features manual was dedicated to Past Period Actuals (PPA). Its so organized that its quite scary to use. I think that to properly implement managing PPA in P5, one has to first develop a plan/procedure/guideline. Implementing the use of PPA without a formal document addressing your projects/organizations need poses a lot of risks against having to redo it. I believe you cant just use this on the fly.
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Steve,
Sorry about your problem, and I symphathise, however it is not for this forum
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Mario, the Imp0/Exp facilities are greatly improved, you are quite right, there is still some problens with importing and exporting things like calendars and the like. These issurs are easily resolved by the creation of dummy projects where you make the calendars global, and then sending these. After importing the projects, just delete them, and the calendars abd code structures remain
Regards
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Brennan,
Thanks, and V5 has these options, you will be amazed that you do not have to be a d_base expert, and it creates templates for use in excel, for D_base ignoramuses, with instructions, about what to do.
Regards
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Vlad, thanks my friend
Member for
20 years 2 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
I would suggest that until such time as "Forum Guests" (of one type or another) declare themselves (and quite possibly their interests) we are faced with a rum debate of little merit or equality.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
interesting... I havent had a chance to evaluate V5
do they have:
- period performance?
- import / export (or some similar way of easily getting the data in and out without being a database guru.
by the way, congrats Jonkers
Member for
24 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Congratulations, Philip!
Member for
21 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Guys,
Leaving P3 is a sad thing, but you can now skip a step and move to V5. it is a bit like going from the ice age to global warming. They have sorted out the bugs in P3ec, and in version 5 have actually brought about a workable solution that is better. So [deleted by Moderator] go for some new technology. I became a grandfather today, thanks to Erik Jonker a member, and am still learning. So just get on with it and learn more.
Regards
Philip
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
One of the problems with trying to improve P3 3.1 (aside from it being 16-bit) is the database it uses -- Btrieve. P5 can now use either Oracle, Interbase or MSDE.
The new database can handle longer fields (like activity names, activity IDs, more custom data items...). I remember being frustrated not being able to transfer complete activity descriptions as shown in in the contract into P3. PE can now do this.
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
My apologies for not replying for a looong time.
I think that since everyone is at ease -- in love? :) -- with P3 3.1, it would be much cheaper and practical to maintain 1 computer dedicated for P3 3.1. That way you can upgrade all the other software that you have (Excel, etc.) while maintaining P3 as your preferred PM tool.
Needless to say (but im saying it anyway), youll be maintaining Win 98/XP/etc. that can run P3. Thats it. You can wire the P3 computer with the new one running the new OS so that you can share files (like when you want to import/export) to and from Excel. Or better, you may want to also maintain old versions of Excel (+ Word, + whatever software you want to run on the old PC), so you wont have to switch PCs everytime you want to run Excel and P3.
What do you think?
Best regards,
Jorge
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
(as a side point would it be too much to ask all these "guests" to register and log in before posing... i loose track of who i am talking to :))
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Thank you. I just confirmed he is a coworker. Your help will be appreciated.
Not only highliting the pros of P3e/P3 is good as well as the cons. but also includding pros of other softwares might proove usefull as long as we keep focused on the main topic.
There is an interesting option in a Russian Software - "Spider", they include Line Diagrams into their software.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Im sorry guest, I do not have access to P3e at the moment.
Just a thought for you tho... I assume you are logging onto P3e as the same user each time. As i understand that each user account has their own baseline information.
BTW Progress in baselines causes problems in P3 too
[EDIT] We have gotten off topic... Ill take a look at your thread in the P3e section
Member for
23 yearsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Perhaps I am missing something, but why are you updating a baseline ?
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Mr Brennan Westworth:
In the P3e Category there is a thread under the title of "wrong baseline". We have noticed this before. To isolate the problem we created a 3 activities schedule, made it a baselinte and then updated the baseline to; one activity completed, a second activity say at 50% and a third activity not started yet. We observed the same weird result.
We even blindly tried to move the relative position of the bars, a procedure that works for other traps, but it did not worked.
Would you please run the 3 activities job and provide us with a solution? We need a solution as we are using both products P3 and P3e. We submit our monthly report to the Government Agency with a P3e Summary Schedule. We are about to ask the Network Manager to re-install the prior version of P3e on the Network.
We have previously found answers to our problems in this forum, it is usually much faster and easier than calling Primavera.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
i was only using acrobat as an example of the problems P3 has interfacing with modern software.
I totally agree that we should never stop looking at and assessing alternatives to Primavera (gota keep em on their toes) but we should also take a proactive roll in letting primavera know how they can improve their product. I have found them to be open to suggestions.
P3e has come a long way since its first beta release, I think that within a couple of years we will end up with a product that far surpasses P3.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
I will follow your suggestion, first will try service pack 2 for windows xp pro. when available then in a near future will upgrade to acrobat 6.0 either standard or pro.
Thank you
Member for
21 years 2 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Sorry to interrupt, but what trouble are you having with Acrobat? Service Pack 2 addressed the default printer issue and as long as your print directory is 8 characters or less and no more than 5 directories deep it should work like a normal printer. We recently upgraded to Acrobat 6.0 Pro and now the 8 character print directory is no longer an issue either (at least not on Win XP).
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Indeed interfacing with Acrobat is an issue, we have a way around.
Set Distiller as your default printer, then "print to Distiller" using the printer icon on the toolbar, it works.
Do not use File-Print Menu nor the Print Preview Icon on the toolbar, it wont work.
It solves the issue but it is still a nuisance.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Mr Breenan, honestly you are right in every regard:
-We had played with p3e and recommend everyone else to do it before making critical decisions.
-We have realized it is not an upgrade to P3 and got dissapointed, similar names P3 vs. P3e is misleading. P3e is another product.
-We are looking for a sustitute for P3, we know of the issues with Acrobat. This issue is very important to us.
-We know P3 is, or is to become, "outdated" by the mere fact it is not a 32 bit application.
That’s why we are looking for a substitute, science P3e do not make the grade, based on our needs, we must look elsewere.
Suretrak although being a 32 bit application ,falls short of our expectations as a substitute to P3, good enough to half of our Contractors. The combination of P3 and Suretrack gave us flexibility the same way Primavera Contractor will do to P3e. We must look for a substitute that provides similar flexibility.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Yes I did read the posts "guest". The general feeling i got was people had played with P3e for a while, realised that it wasn’t P3 and got uncomfortable.
I personally think that although P3 is a good "tool" (and remember that when comes down to it P3 is to a planneer that which a calculator is to an engineer) it is quite outdated. one only has to try interfacing it with modern software (like adobe acrobat) to uncover the instability of its anchient engine.
The P3 community is right to push primavera to improve its product, but please take a proactive approach.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Forum Guest (1 or 2 or 3 ??)
Anyway it is very hard to know who we talk to and if there is any point to cont. the discussion. Since you initial comments. Cant track back who or wehen... it seem that you still cannot substainate exactly why you cannot use P3e. Cost (They are about the same in a new user point of view), Learning Curve (Any new software you have to learn), Training (As above), Easy of use(That becomes very subjective and personal), or just too different from P3??
I dont think we can discuss in a healthy way until you present yourself. Again it is your personal perference.
Alex
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Brennan,
Have you read the previous posts? I dont think you did, I suggest you read from the very start.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
QUOTE: Forum Guest
"I’m just making a point that if something is not broken, don’t fix it"
Then keep windows XP and P3 for the rest of your planning career.
I on the other hand would like to support companies (like primavera) that are developing their planning software. The opinion that "P3 is the pinacle of project planning software, we will never need more than that" is ridiculous.
I have used P3 and P3e professionally and can say without hesitation that P3e has some great features that make my life easier and allow me to work more efficiently. Im not saying that it is a perfect product, but the number of new versions since its initial release shows that primavera is committed to constantly improving their product.
So upgrade or dont... the choice is yours
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
It goes further than personal taste. It should be a decision based on your real needs. Science this is an issue related to P3 and P3e all opinions are welcome. I just hope Primavera is litsening as well as those evaluating the alternatives.
You must do appropiate research to make sure the product is what you need. Do some trial runs using real data and real procedures for updating, tranfering files, comparing files, cost load and resource load the schedules, work with baselines and finally run all required reports.
Our contractors submit every month an updated schedule in electronic form, we must compare the updated version with the prior version to make sure it is valid, to make sure the contractor is not using float supression techniques to favor their claims.
These schedules are used by our Contractors to sustain their delay claims and time extension request. The owner requires to justify time extension using the CPM in order to approve Change Orders for time extension or Extended Overhead. Usually time extensions are due to unforseen conditions, not necesarelly the Contractor’s fault. To us it is important, extremelly important, what software will be required in our contracts.
The truth is Contractors are sometimes reluctant to the imposition of the software, their opinion must be taken into account. Sometimes they compain that they use other software, that the imposed software is expensive, that the sofware is difficult to learn, that the software requires them to use an outside consultant witout the required engineering background shifting control from their project manager to an outsider... and the list goes on.
After two years of using P3 and P3e we still require them to submit thir schedules in P3 format using either P3 or Suretrak.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Alex and forum guest,
The other forum guest may have a different opinion with me in regards to, he wants to replace P3 by an alternative software but not P3e. With me, ill stick with P3 but upgrading must continue, i dont want to migrate to another platform such as P3e. The reason is simple, im comfortable with P3. It is effective and i find it very useful. Yes it has limitations, thats why I want it upgraded only to cope up with these limitations.
What Primavera did was it brought down the whole house and build a new one. But it is still the same house, with added features.
But I guess this is all water under the bridge, Im just expressing my opinion on the subject.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Forum Guest
Good that you xpress your point of view. I guess some people want a 4x4 some people want to use bus. Company choice. If a company never have a vehicle before. It is good to have a bus. However, if everyone in the company is already using a car. It is very hard to ask them to change to a bus. Please do understand that it is not to do with the bus of car itself it is just a personal preference. And your personal preference is very clear. However, I guess there is room for others to view the different size of the picture. Everything have a pro and con, individual have to evulate how it apply to them. Thats why lot of IT company love P3e. Becasuse they never have one and cost traing, & acceptance is not an issue.
:}
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
If we needed enterprise stuff we would have converted long ago, as enterprise scheduling has been available long ago.
I dislike P3e because is not friendly to stand alone projects, is not like P3, when you import files you get everything your counterpart is looking at. If you represent the owner, you want this.
Again the basics arithmetic. On average 400 activities per 12 million dollars job, P3 on 100,000 activities yields a Project Group of 250 projects, all sharing resources. That is "a mere 3 Billion in US Dollars", again fortunatelly we can spread our jobs in separate Project Groups, this way we could handdle hundreds of Billions. Got it, is not statistics, is a matter of need, is a matter of software cost, is a matter of the learning curve applied to the whole enterprise, is a matter of simplicity.
P3 has more than the vast majority need. CPM is not the only tool, Job Costing is another important tool usually integrated into accounting, who wants to dupplicate this effort? Contractor’s need the whole story, costs related to units in a meningfull way. Earned Value only provides 50%, yes it is a simplification, enough for one time shots or for other businesess where management is not concerned with unit costs but other approach to Budgetting. Contractor’s prefer to keep scheduling simple. The point is, not everybody needs all the CPM tools available nor all the tools in a CPM are enough.
Both programs P3 and P3e do the basics and more, is not an issue of statistics. Is on the whole idea the issue, they are two different approaches to scheduling.
Although a School Bus (P3e)can handdle more passengers I still prefer my utility vehicle (P3), with the 4x4 available when it rains at the jobsite.
We as government consultants must be responsive to both side needs, these are General Construction Contractors in one side and the Government Agency at the other side.
It is a fact we must look for a replacement for P3, definitivelly it is not P3e.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Forum Guest
I still dont understand what P3e that makes you so uncomfortable. If you read the forum there is 50 / 50 in the like and dislike zone. You will then ask why?? I guess it is all related to change management. At least that is what I think. Can you list out the stuff that you cannot do in P3e so that we can share your view. - BTW as I mentioned in last few message there is a current category in Planning Planet discuss this topic in more details
Cheers
Alex
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
It wont fill the void to our needs. I have no doubt it will still be annoying judging from a screen available at the primavera Site and comparing to a P3e screen. Though we will give it a chance and eventually run it side by side with P3 and P3e.
No doubt it will fill the void for those in need of a scalable solution under P3e. A real need for some, or shall I say a "few". No doubt the "few" is a good market.
We are not in this market.
Member for
22 years 10 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
What a coincidence that you asked for it. Primavera will be introducing P3e ‘Lite’ sometime in the near future. All of the CPM but half of the price.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Don’t count on everybody being generous, even generosity has its limit.
Do you remember Lotus 123
Do you remember Wordstar.
All gone (almost gone).
Eventually someone will get it and will fill the void already left.
... pts... Microsoft wake up, others wake up... take the chance don’t let it pass
WE ARE IN NEED OF A SUBSTITUTE FOR P3, P3e IS NOT WHAT WE NEED.
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
You see alex, as you said anything is possible in programming its just a matter of cost benefit. If Primavera has decided not to upgrade to P3 I dont mind. Im just making a point that if something is not broken, dont fix it. Perhaps after ten years, Primavera would change again its format, telling us the same reason, its just a matter of cost benefit for programming. Arent we being too generous to a vendor if we just follow what they offered us?
But to tell you frankly, Im not convinced with your answers, I tend to believe more the reason by other forum guest.
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
Hi Forum Guest
"In real software term, it is very difficult to change the 16 bit technology to a 32 or 64 bit technology and that’s why Primavera do not want to re-programme the software application(P3)" - Are you expert on this? Yes P3 data base is currently on a string method and is only allow to have 64 characters. Thats why you cannot have too long Activity ID and Description. Anything is possible in programming, just whether the cost benefit can support that. And I think Primavera is already made the decision.
"Changing platform is not the issue, just there is no room to growth in P3 and that is why Primavera have to develop a alternated product P3e, team play or P3e/c (they are same)to takeover the existing 10 years old product" - Are you sure about this expecially the no room for growth part?
See above, comments, anything is possible, ie try to introduce a structured code system in P3. Almost impossible with the way the database is currently setting. Guess why Primavera already annonce they are not going to enhance P3. Do you think that they will run the decision without a cost benefit analysis.
Cheer up and start to learn P3e...
Alex
Member for
16 years 9 monthsRE: P3 Vs P3ec
IMHO, the upgrading of software has to do with commercial issues (i.e. for the vendor to keep raking on profits). Why do you think that car manufacturers have to introduce new models every year when we know that the car we bought could last more than a year?