Punishment of Indecent Members

Hi There,



Thanks Moderator.



This is democracy.



Regards

Hi there,



Moderation of Forum



After 344 emails asking for some discussion on the topic of how to keep the peace and harmony inside the discussion forum, we have setup a survey question relating to moderation of the sites content; mainly the discussion forum.  



The idea of a survey is first-rate and if people state their preference, it will help us to come to good consensus of the way forward.



We hope / think that everyone realises that the moderators have a pretty thankless job - they graciously volunteer their time and knowledge.  Hopefully the survey should solve this problem and give us all some guidance as to the way forward etc....



The survey can be fund here... http://www.planningplanet.com/vote/Vote_Question_Options.asp?vid=900



Regards...

Fiona

Love the idea about what planners have to do maybe to keep their job.

Have had to be really nice to a dopey PM and look at his holiday snaps and talk to his wife Mrs Dopey.

Have had to reschedule the project cos somebody (a QS) thought it could be done a different way well of course it could dont need to be a QS to know that,

Have had to drive half way across the country to make a presentation which was cancelled cos lunch overan at the pub.

What else

Oscar

PHILIP

DO YOU WANT MINE

Oscar

Hi Fiona,



Send me your CV

All,



The last couple of posts seem to me to be crying out for a Thread entitled "Most Bizarre thing I have had to do in the name of Planning"



Just a thought - could be fun.



Regards

Fiona

Hi Gwen,

Been there, done it

You are so right! However, you failed to omit other vital functions. I speak from expereince.

Marriage guidance, getting crews out of jail/cat house cards and strategy, personal shopper (an anchor, wifes Xmas perfume, ball and chain, and blow up sheep come to immediately to mind), party organiser, date fixer, CV polisher, deflecting phone calls from irritated spouces, girlfreinds partners, nurse, source of all knowledge from the female point of view, kid problems, stag party organiser, venue recommender, "beard", facilitator!

Hi Gwen,



You are quite correct, without humour the workplace becomes boring, like project managers having heart attacks, the project engineers ending up in the looney bin, etc, so there is a lot of scope for planners with a sense of humour, keep sanity in place. I speak from experience, and it is is important for somebody to be in charge of general sanity and stress. In my time as a planner, I have often had to do the job of Sports and entertaiment manager, which is a tool for destressing the rest of the project team. For this you need cooking skills, a good understanding of sports, general understanding of pshycology and a good sense of humour. The more remote the project, the better. You need to know volleyball rules, pool rules, dart rules, rugby rules, Petanque rules, baseball rules, cricket rules, snap rules, pictionary rules, Rummy rules, basket ball rules, etc. In fact you must be able to organise anything from a Marathon to a tiddlywinks competition. A different facet of planning, And a sense of humour helps.



Regards



Philip

Hi Gwen,



You make a number of really good points.



While we are paid for our professionalism, we must be able to derive pleasure and satisfaction from what we are doing in order to keep on doing it well. If this isn’t happening to somebody then they are probably in the wrong job and had better do something about that before they drive themselves and everyone else nuts.



I suppose if you weren’t enjoying your work and you were brought into contact with people who quite obviously were, you could see that enjoyment as indecent. From there it’s only a short step to labelling those who do enjoy their work as indecent. I’m not pointing fingers or making accusations, just thinking aloud really.



Chris Oggham

Hey! Forget the age-ism. This is war in humour-ism and finding a global definition of decent. I am intrigued as to how some one, say Y who has never met X can expect Z to punish them. Surely this is a covert sadistic overtones is in themsleves form of indecency.



As for the comment I missed way back "I am paid for my profesionalism" implying that you cant have fun whilst at work. What would be the point of getting up in the morning? Money to a certain degree. If you cant have fun at work and I am not talking horseplay or tom foolery where can you have fun? The majority of us, unfortunately, spend most of our active life at work. May as well make it fun as well or its going to be a LONG day/shift/rota.

Hi Clive,

unfortunately I am way out of the brscket, can handle yhe 35 yr plus. But a good idea, just don’t censor it

How about starting a thread for all "indecent" members to the exclusion of those who have the audacity to think they are decent and have pure thoughts to all mankind all the the time. Yeuch!!! What a thought! A completely sanitised world with no humour, double entres, craic, running gags.

Come to think of it I have worked in a few places like that. A certain office in Tullos jumps to mind.

Hi Chris,



A good idea, should work. I would not bother personally with attacking the moderator, but, I suppose there is those who would. Maybe there is a position for an arbitrator, one or more, who could look at these matters. I would volenteer.



Regards



Philip

Consider this : Provide the choice to users when they login to forum.

Let them decide to opt for either



"UnModerated version" - my prefered way

or

"Moderated version" - Now they cant be hurt, which is fair from their point of view.



However, there could be some sort of indicator to show them which post was moderated, so when they feel like venting out...



PP ADMIN?

Hi Philip,



I pretty much agree with what you said, there should be some way to protest over-zealous moderation. I agree with you that the moderator should be identifiable, to show that they have the courage of their convictions, just like the person who made the original post.



Having the moderator put their name to the moderated post is one way of doing it, but it might leave the moderator open to personal abuse or attempts at intimidation. They don’t get paid for what they do, so why should they have to run the risk of having someone give them a hard time?



Maybe PP Admin could give each moderator a number and set up a generic Private Mail address. Then if someone thought their post had been moderated unfairly they could quote the post number, its location and the moderator number and give the reasons why the post had been made. They could then be given the reasons why the post had been moderated and it just might be possible to reach a solution that way.



What do you think?



Chris Oggham

Hi Guys,



This is a very interesting topic, and I would like to lend a different view to it.



Punishment, get banned from the site, ha ha.



Anybody with a bit of an understanding of the net knows how easy it is to get an alias, ie a new e-mail address, and just join the site again. I can go through the list of members and tell you which ones are using bogus names, etc.



The point is that we are here to discuss matters at hand, help each other, and generally enjoy ourselves. This is how some of us relax, and in my instance if somebody is trying to find me, they will have no problem, as I believe in transparancy.



However, we tackle some contentious issues, and sometimes people get involved, when they should stay out of the kitchen due to the heat. When they get a reaction they do not like, they start crying. This is the course of getting experience. You burn your fingers on the stove, and you learn not to touch it again, rather test it with the back of your hand at a distance.



My suggestion, is that you post a potentially moderatable posting, is to save it to MS word, and if deleted, people who are interested can contact you and find out what you said that was so terrible, and be able to react to it, giving us some recourse on bad moderation. I further think the responsible moderator, should put his name to his deletion, this will ensure the moderators stay honest, and are policed in the same way as they police.



Regards



Philip

Alex,



The reason why this is taking it’s time because people are exchanging ideas. Different people, different views.



Se

Chris



I agreed with what you said 100%. Different Culture and different backgound have a different level of acceptance. I think the moderator in PP is very good in term of filtering some of the unnecessary comments.



I don’t see a reason of taking this issue any further



Alex

I’m against punishment.



I prefer to let the moderator make the decision on what to do in the implementation of forum rules.



To PP peers, let us join hands in supporting the decision of the moderators. We may not like the way the moderators make the decision, but forum rules shall be implemented irrespective of the stature of contributing members.



IMHO.



Charlie

As there is always scope for misunderstanding it is always a good idea, if you have been offended by something somebody says, to send them a PP message explaining what you found so offensive and why.



It may be that the poster honestly didn’t realise that their post could be construed in an offensive or insulting way. Or that someone would take it to heart so.



It is only this way that we will know if we’ve upset people. I, personally would welcome a message from anyone whom I have offended, and will endeavour to reply to every single one of the flood I am now expecting ;o).



While the moderators have an important role in policing the forum; we, as a group, have a responsibility to let each other know when we, inadvertantly, overstep the mark.



I still think Oscar’s comment was funny...

Hi Jihad,



As you point out, people should respect the core values of the forum as contained in the rules & guidelines. I don’t think anyone would disagree with this. You also say that you have found certain types of humour offensive, nonsense and a waste of time. That is perfectly valid, you are entitled to your opinion; but so are the people who find it inoffensive, amusing and light-hearted.



With so many people from different countries and cultures taking part in this forum, there are bound to be differences of opinion and misunderstandings from time to time. In view of your concerns and your expressed wish to have a moderator’s opinion in this matter, can I suggest that you send a private mail to PP Admin detailing the problem to get this matter resolved.



Regards



Chris Oggham

Hi Chris,



I think I made myself clear on my first post on this thread that I was referring to insults, unncessary comments etc. Please see post #8. Here it is.



"If Jihad is refering to indecent members as those people who instead of sticking to the issues these people tend to give unnecessary remarks, insults, namecalling, mocking, taunting what have you. On this I agree with him".



I’m against also to shutting up people’s valid opinions.



"If it’s a legitimate point and relevant to the issue at hand, then it’s wrong to censor one’s views".



I hope my position here is now very clear.



Cheers,



Se

Hi Se,



I understand where you are coming from, but if someone is afraid of being ridiculed for their views on the forum, how do they do their job? As Gwen pointed out, the risk of ridicule or bad language on the forum is no greater than if you put forward your views at work. If you are sure of your position you can refute arguments against it. If you are putting forward a tentative proposition, say so, and people can agree or disagree as they want to and good luck to them.



While it is preferable to be positive and say good things, what do we do when there is noting good to be said? Sometimes it is necessary to say "this won’t work" and give the reasons why it won’t work, and if required to be blunt about it. This doesn’t, of course, include name calling or other insults, but there are time when we should and must say "no good".



Chris Oggham

What Sigfrido said. I agree completely.



Larry

Hi guys,



What about those people who want to give their views but they’re afraid they might be ridiculed, insulted, mock, taunted etc. or perhaps they feel some people here in planningplanet are bunch of ass...... then why the heck will they participate in such forum? For me that is counterproductive also. We may be missing a lot of "valuable" ideas from these people. Instead of reading these foul langguages, i’d rather read simple messages but with added value.



I’m not for censorship but for self censorship or self restraint as how chris called it.



Gwen and Gordon, don’t be surprised if I survive my day work environment. I’m being paid for my skills not to ridicule people.



Again, my dear colleagues, please...... "If we have nothing good to say, we should shut up".



Cheers,



Se

Methinks there is a difference between spirited discussion and what has been happening here. Frankly, I enjoy a good putdown as much as the next, but it has to have some semblance of wit, otherwise it isn’t worth reading.



The vast majority of the things I’ve read on these pages have been "You’re a... [insult epithet here]". Come on, people! Get creative!



If you are going to be obnoxious, at least be somewhat entertaining or humorous. Otherwise, stick to the facts of the case and argue your point.



There’s no need to question people’s sexual orientation, personal hygiene or other characteristics when their opinions lend themselves to satire and ridicule .



If they don’t lend themselves easily to satire and ridicule, then argue against them using logic.



I firmly believe that forums like this are to allow us all to learn from other’s mistakes and experiences. To the extent that the insults and other nonsense gets in the way of that, it should be moderated out of existence.



Larry

Have just remembered what Oscar said.... I wouldn’t really call it an attack, merely a humerous observation (well, I liked it, and wouldn’t have taken it to heart had it been about me).



I do understand that the Moderator’s lot is not necessarily an easy one, and a line has to be drawn somewhere to protect the sensitivities of some of our more delicate members, but I think the tone of a separate thread has perhaps prompted a clamping down across the board.



We are all grown ups, and have agreed to the T+Cs, but am sad that the majority of members have missed out on quite an amusing little cameo from my new best friend Oscar.

I am absolutely shocked that some Planners find fault with some areas of this forum.

Near the bone yes, but so what?

Seen, heard worse every day unless there is some closeted part of the world that is wrapped in cotton wool. I dont think so.



For any budding planner who finds offense in this forum, I have this advice.

Forget site work. You wont last the morning, male or female.

umm... forgive my memory, but I read Oscar’s post before it got Moderated, and don’t remember it containing anything too offensive.



It could just be my memory, I am getting on a bit, and am even starting to find myself on Oscar’s side occasionally (although trying not to make it a habit ;o))... but I still don’t recall anything too bad.



Ah well... in the Moderators we trust....

Annoying or not we should be able and indeed in the most case are able to say exactly what we want

Self censorship is wrong

Of course we should say when we dont agree that we dont agree

Different opinions are valuable

Flexing the brain to explain why is good exercise

my namesake was punished for saying what he did and then people realising exactly what he meant a sad end to a brilliant wit

[Personal attack deleted by Moderator.]

Oscar

I’ve noticed in the short time that I’ve been a member here, that there have been occasions when people have posted belittling comments on forums.



This is out of order.



But you can bet that they probably didn’t mean it, or if challenged would be polite enough to at least claim so.



I’ve also gone on record asking people NOT TO SHOUT ALL THE TIME when things get heated.



But the one thing I would really take exception to, is the removal of anyone’s right to express their views and opinions.



On occasion they may be close to the knuckle, they may stray over the line of good manners (they may leave said line miles behind), but that is why we have moderators.



While it would be lovely if everyone drafted their posts, took a deep breath, re-read them to ensure that they couldn’t possibly cause offence, and then posted them; it is never going to happen here, or just about anywhere else.



Seriously, and I say this with the utmost respect and compassion to all, if you can’t handle the occasional ripe opinion, or percieved slight, from someone you’ll never meet, on the other side of the world, I’m amazed you make it through the working day.



Apologies if that last paragraph offended anyone. Fell free not to have read it ;o)

Hi Se,



I understand your concerns, but compared to some forums there is very little negative posting on Planning Planet. The moderators do a pretty good job of keeping posts within the Forum Rules and Guidelines.



I agree with you when you say we should exercise self-moderation; but if we are honest, there are times when we all say or write something which we regret ten minutes later. Unfortunately, sometimes circumstances prevent us from doing anything about it. Should we be labelled indecent for an uncharactaristic lapse in good manners? I don’t think so. After all where would that lead us? Would people who don’t agree with a particular viewpoint come to be labelled indecent? As Philip pointed out in an earlier posting, this is the start of radicalism and intolerance.



What I would suggest to any member who is offended by a posting, rather than attach labels to people, send a private mail to the person who made the post and explain your concerns. You will probably be agreeably surprised by the response you get. If you don’t get satisfaction then refer the matter to the moderators by sending a private mail to PP Admin. The matter will be investigated and the appropriate action taken.



I’m not sure whether I have said anything good or not, but now I will take your advice and shut up.



Regards



Chris Oggham

Hi Clive,



Namecalling, insults, mocking, taunting it’s all over the place in planningplanet and some of it were deleted already by the moderator.



What i’m trying to point out here is self censorship without limiting your creativity and professionalism as what Jihad pointed out as well. I would like to believe we’re all matured enough to know if what we’re saying is an insult or not.



Yeah i agree with you that sometimes there is a very thin line between which is namecalling and which is not. But also, we’re not stupid not to know if it is really namecalling or not.



The next statement is not for you personally Clive, it’s a general statement.



Again: "If we have nothing good to say, then we should shut up".



Cheers,



Se

Hi guys,



If Jihad is refering to indecent members as those people who instead of sticking to the issues these people tend to give unnecessary remarks, insults, namecalling, mocking, taunting what have you. On this I agree with him.



If it’s a legitimate point and relevant to the issue at hand, then it’s wrong to censor one’s views.



To sum it up: "If you have nothing good to say, then shut up".



Cheers,



Se

Agree with Philip



We cannot just shut people opinoins.



Alex

And of course, if the thread annoys you or offends you there is the simplistic option of just not logging on to it.

We may or may not find things offensive in every day life. Its not limited to the Arabic world, the Western world, the Oreintal world wherever the boundaries lie or whatever the definition of those worlds may be.

Either get used to to other customs, cultures, sense of humour, opinions etc and, regardless of whether it offends you or not, enjoy the variation life brings.

Its what makes the world go round.

Either that or gouge out your eyes, cut off your ears or get a tougher skin.

Ms Indignant

Norway

Hi Guys,



The point is that personal feelings, whatever they are related to, does not give just cause to shut up members of the community. You have two options, either argue in a valid forum with no holds barred, or otherwise ignore the the problem. If you pick the the first option, just be prepared to accept what comes your way, in the second option leave it alone, and find somewhere else to raise your voice till you lose again.



Regards

Jihad,



Sorry, but I agree with Philip.



Just because you are unhappy with some of the statements and opinions posted on this forum, does not necessarily mean that they contravene the forum rules & guidelines. In this situation, it isn’t a great deal of help to vaguely allude to statements and ideas you are not happy with, to categorise the people who made them as indecent and to call for them to be punished.



Having said that, if you, or any other member, find something on the forum that you find offensive, it may just be because the moderators have not dealt with it yet. What you can do is send a private mail to PP Admin, giving the location of the post, its number, and the name of the person who made it and your concerns will be investigated and dealt with as quickly as possible.



Chris Oggham

Jihad,



What you are proposing here is radicalism....................................................................................