you mean that the program has to be prepared based on the accurate quantities calculated from the drawings and the contract price have to amende accordigly in order to get realistic program and cash flow regardless the quantities mentioned in the contract BOQ which has been used for the purpose of pricing the tender only.
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Submitted by sathis jayaweera on Mon, 2007-10-29 03:59
Presumable If this contract is remeasured under FDIC 4th edition and no variation to the works, the answer shall be described as follows.
The Quantities set out in the BOQ are the estimated quantities (FDIC COC Cls 55.1) and contact price shall be changed on actual measured on work completion. no price adjustment to the contract BoQ even contact price increased or decreed by 15%
Also contactor shall not entitle EOT
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Submitted by Waleed Mahfouz on Thu, 2007-10-25 10:36
First of all, the main purpose of the time schedule is to control the construction process time which depends on the rates which in turn depend on the quantity.
So it is advisable to use the drawings quantities in the program which will reflect the suitable method statement.
But before that I think it is preferable to send a letter to the consultant to save your rights, if the quantity is increased to the the limit that will affect the completion date.
As you have the right to reprice the items with more quantities, and also to increase execution time.
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20 years 10 months
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Tue, 2007-09-25 06:08
2- the following points are mentioned in the preamble of the contract BOQ:
- Drawings, specifications , BOQ and all other documents are complementary and if any item is included in any of them , it shall be deemed included in all.
- The contractor shall not use these BOQ as a basis for a construction program or for the purpose of ordering materials or arranging sub-contractor.
- The whole of the quantities shall be treated as approximate only and are given to provide common basis for tendering.
We have also in the condition of contract clause 52.3 "Variations Exceedung 15%"that the contractor has the right to claim if if the amount of the contract increased or decreased by more than 155 of the effective contract price.
"The contractor shall not use the BOQ as a basis for a construction program" seems plain enough.
Cl52.3 gives you potentially more money, but does the contract elsewhere give you more time?
You dont state what version oe edition of FIDIC youre working under or if it been amended to account for the above.
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19 years 2 months
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Submitted by ashraf alawady on Tue, 2007-09-25 00:33
Still we have not finalized the matter of the difference in quantities between the quntities estimated from the contract drawings and the quantities mentioned in the contract Bill Of Quantities.
In our contracts we are following FIDIC as general codition of contract.
Based on clause 14 in FIDIC the contractor has to prepare and submit the program of works and the program has to be resource loaded and quantity loaded.
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18 years 2 months
Member for18 years2 months
Submitted by David Barker on Wed, 2007-09-05 11:57
"Contra proferentem is a rule of contractual interpretation which provides that a term which is found to be ambiguous should be construed against the party which imposed its inclusion in the contract. That is, the preferred interpretation will be the one most favourable to the party upon whom its inclusion was imposed. Or, more accurately against (the interests of) the party who imposed it. The rule only applies if, and to the extent that, the clause was included at the unilateral insistence of one party without having been subject to negotiation by the counter-party.
It translates from the Latin literally to mean "against (contra) the one bringing forth (the proferens)."
The reasoning behind this rule is to encourage the drafter of a contract to be as clear and explicit as possible and to take into account as many foreseeable situations as he can.
Additionally, the rule reflects the courts inherent dislike of standard-form take-it-or-leave-it contracts also known as contracts of adhesion (e.g., standard form insurance contracts for individual consumers, residential leases, etc.). The court perceives such contracts to be the product of bargaining between parties in unfair or uneven positions. To mitigate this perceived unfairness, legal systems apply the doctrine of contra proferentem; giving the benefit of any doubt in favour of the party upon whom the contract was foisted. Some courts when seeking a particular result will use contra proferentem to take a strict approach against insurers and other powerful contracting parties and go so far as to interpret terms of the contract in favor of the other party, even where the meaning of a term would appear clear and unambiguous on its face, although this application is disfavored.
Contra proferentem also places the cost of losses on the party who was in the best position to avoid the harm. This is generally the person who drafted the contract. An example of this is the insurance contract, a great example of the contract of adhesion, above. There, the insurance company is the party that is completely in control of the terms of the contract and is generally in a better position to, for example, avoid contractual forfeiture. This is a principle of long standing. See, for example, California Civil Code §1654 (“In cases of uncertainty . . . the language of a contract should be interpreted most strongly against the party who caused the uncertainty to exist.") California enacted this section in 1872. Numerous other states have codified the rule as well.
International legislation such as the European Principles of Contract Law, have also codified this rule of law. Also, in the arbitration procedures of the International Chamber of Commerce there are (a few) cases in which arbitrators recall the principle of contra proferentem in their legal reasoning."
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18 years 7 months
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Submitted by Richard Spedding on Wed, 2007-09-05 07:08
My belief is that your contract will say that if the quantities are outside the +/- 15% band from the BoQ, then the rates in the BoQ will be subject to renegotiation / revision. This will not necessarily be a variation to the Works, as the contract drawings and specification may mean that the quantities in the BoQ are simply incorrect. This is implied by all your posts anyway.
In terms of a cash flow, you need to talk to the contractors QS and find out what rates he intends to apply to the elements which fall outside the 15% band. Use those for the initial cash flow, (it can only get better after that). When the firestorm subsides after you present the cash flow forecast, I am sure there will be enough resources applied to agreeing the new rates and you will have to adjust the cash flow(s) to suit the new rates.
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19 years 2 months
Member for19 years2 months
Submitted by ashraf alawady on Tue, 2007-09-04 23:49
what you are tilling is very confident and correct.
Assume that we calculated the total quantities from the drawings and we found that thequantities have been increased by more than 15% and as per the contract if the quantities will increased or decreased by more than 15% so it is a variation and the contractor is entitel to adjust the rates and to get the over head and profit for the extra works passing 15% of the original quanyiyies in the BOQ.
also in this case how we can prepare the cash floe for the project.
Thanks
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18 years 7 months
Member for18 years7 months
Submitted by Richard Spedding on Tue, 2007-09-04 11:11
Agreed you need to load the quantities and resources, but these MUST relate to the drawings which describe the Works to be built - there is no point in using the BoQ just because they have the quantities someone else believed that it would take. You (the corporate you - probably a quantity surveyor or measurement engineer if they still exist) must take off the quantities from the contract drawings and you should then apply those quantities to the programme to get the necessary activity durations.
Also dont forget the old latin saying of contra preferendum, where the party that draws up the contract documents has the duty to make them all mutually self descriptive (assuming you are working under English Law). If there is any discrepancy between the documents, then the client is responsible and must hold the contractor harmless from the discrepancy.
Member for
18 years 2 months
Member for18 years2 months
Submitted by David Barker on Tue, 2007-09-04 10:30
Clause 14 Program should be prepared as close as possible to the program that was Tendered and accepted by awarding the Contract.
Afterall a contract has to be what was contemplated at the time of award (offer, acceptance, meeting of minds, possibility of performance, legal, of sound mind, capacity to contract etc).
You should resist the notion that the Engineer can dictate to you how to run your business.
If the Engineer should insist on you programming the work in a manner not consistant with what you offered in your tender then you should insist that an instruction is given varying the work.
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19 years 2 months
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Submitted by ashraf alawady on Sat, 2007-09-01 01:47
Agreed ,but to prepare a realistic program in order to manage the project we have to load the quantities and resources .
so still we have to finalize the matter of the difference in quantities between the quntities estimated from the contract drawings and the quantities mentioned in the contract Bill Of Quantities and which one has to be considered and inserted in the program taking into consideration the cash flow and the original contract value.
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20 years 10 months
Member for20 years11 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Thu, 2007-08-30 13:08
I agreed with you that the total quatities and total amount
in the contract BOQ are approximate andwill be defferent form the quantuties calculated from the drawing but there is a limitaion should guid and contral these differences other wise the total quantities and total amount may will be double or treeble which is not acceptable and againest the condition of contract .
the condition of contract has limited the incease or decrease in the toatal quantities as well as the toal amount to 15% only and in our case it is more than this and how we can solve the problem of preparing a realistic cash flow in this case.
Member for
18 years 7 months
Member for18 years7 months
Submitted by Richard Spedding on Sat, 2007-08-18 08:19
The tender programme must be based on the tender drawings, not the BoQ. How can you know where a particular amount of a billed rate is to fall within the programme unless you refer to the drawings. The BoQ is merely a vehicle for payment, and a guide only to the amount of work to be done.
Similarly the Contract programme baseline must be based on the Contract drawings issued when the contract is signed. This may (and probaly will) be different to the drawings at tender stage.
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18 years 9 months
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Submitted by Dieter Wambach on Sat, 2007-08-18 03:51
As you mentioned, there are different conditions in that contract: ".. shall not use as a basis .." would mean: you pay. "..Variations exceeding 15%.." would mean: they pay because you exceed by 20%.
The only advice I can give you: consult your lawyer - there is an obvious contradiction in terms of the contract. It is very dangerous if you try to solve this lack of contract - and: This is PMs responsibility.
Good luck!
Dieter
p.s. Ill leave now for the rest of the day (German time)
Member for
19 years 2 months
Member for19 years2 months
Submitted by ashraf alawady on Sat, 2007-08-18 03:35
Thanks for your kind answer but i would like to high light the following conditions mantioned in our contract:-
1- Contract is remeasured contract.
2- the following points are mentioned in the preamble of the contract BOQ:
- Drawings, specifications , BOQ and all other documents are complementary and if any item is included in any of them , it shall be deemed ancluded in all.
- The contractor shall not use these BOQ as abasis for a construction program or for the purpose of ordering materials or arranging sub-contractor.
- The whole of the quantities shall be treated as approximate only and are given to provide common basis for tendering.
We have also in the condition of contract clause 52.3 "Vaiations Exceedung 15%"that the contractor has the right to clain if if the amount of the contract increased or decreased by more than 155 of the effective contract price.
still we are in opinion to use the quanyitities mentioned in the BOQ only if the deferce between the quantities calculated from the drawings and the quantitiesmentioned in the BOQ was more than 15% taking into consideration that the cash flow will not be realistic.
Member for
18 years 9 months
Member for18 years9 months
Submitted by Dieter Wambach on Sat, 2007-08-18 02:54
The contract said that you’ll work with a certain quantity of steel, cubicmeters of rooms,.... Your offer and the agreed price were based on this quantity. After detaile Engineering it was shown that this assumption was wrong. The BoQ has to be changed. This is a change of scope - a CLAIM.
Now it depends from the contract; e.g.:
- Was the BoQ base of the contract --> claim and more money
- Was the BoQ an assumption to be proved by the contractor before signature --> bad luck for you
Member for
18 yearsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf
Absolutly your write
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi sathis,
you mean that the program has to be prepared based on the accurate quantities calculated from the drawings and the contract price have to amende accordigly in order to get realistic program and cash flow regardless the quantities mentioned in the contract BOQ which has been used for the purpose of pricing the tender only.
Member for
18 yearsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf,
Presumable If this contract is remeasured under FDIC 4th edition and no variation to the works, the answer shall be described as follows.
The Quantities set out in the BOQ are the estimated quantities (FDIC COC Cls 55.1) and contact price shall be changed on actual measured on work completion. no price adjustment to the contract BoQ even contact price increased or decreed by 15%
Also contactor shall not entitle EOT
Member for
18 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf,
First of all, the main purpose of the time schedule is to control the construction process time which depends on the rates which in turn depend on the quantity.
So it is advisable to use the drawings quantities in the program which will reflect the suitable method statement.
But before that I think it is preferable to send a letter to the consultant to save your rights, if the quantity is increased to the the limit that will affect the completion date.
As you have the right to reprice the items with more quantities, and also to increase execution time.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf,
In an early post you stated:
1- Contract is remeasured contract.
2- the following points are mentioned in the preamble of the contract BOQ:
- Drawings, specifications , BOQ and all other documents are complementary and if any item is included in any of them , it shall be deemed included in all.
- The contractor shall not use these BOQ as a basis for a construction program or for the purpose of ordering materials or arranging sub-contractor.
- The whole of the quantities shall be treated as approximate only and are given to provide common basis for tendering.
We have also in the condition of contract clause 52.3 "Variations Exceedung 15%"that the contractor has the right to claim if if the amount of the contract increased or decreased by more than 155 of the effective contract price.
"The contractor shall not use the BOQ as a basis for a construction program" seems plain enough.
Cl52.3 gives you potentially more money, but does the contract elsewhere give you more time?
You dont state what version oe edition of FIDIC youre working under or if it been amended to account for the above.
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Dear All,
Still we have not finalized the matter of the difference in quantities between the quntities estimated from the contract drawings and the quantities mentioned in the contract Bill Of Quantities.
In our contracts we are following FIDIC as general codition of contract.
Based on clause 14 in FIDIC the contractor has to prepare and submit the program of works and the program has to be resource loaded and quantity loaded.
Member for
18 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Probably, unless the Client organisation could show that the particular clause was introduced by the Contractor
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Thanks David
Sorry about my own spelling, but the general onus is still with the client organisation as I believed, (I think)
Member for
18 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
I wikipediaed the term and this is what I found,
"Contra proferentem is a rule of contractual interpretation which provides that a term which is found to be ambiguous should be construed against the party which imposed its inclusion in the contract. That is, the preferred interpretation will be the one most favourable to the party upon whom its inclusion was imposed. Or, more accurately against (the interests of) the party who imposed it. The rule only applies if, and to the extent that, the clause was included at the unilateral insistence of one party without having been subject to negotiation by the counter-party.
It translates from the Latin literally to mean "against (contra) the one bringing forth (the proferens)."
The reasoning behind this rule is to encourage the drafter of a contract to be as clear and explicit as possible and to take into account as many foreseeable situations as he can.
Additionally, the rule reflects the courts inherent dislike of standard-form take-it-or-leave-it contracts also known as contracts of adhesion (e.g., standard form insurance contracts for individual consumers, residential leases, etc.). The court perceives such contracts to be the product of bargaining between parties in unfair or uneven positions. To mitigate this perceived unfairness, legal systems apply the doctrine of contra proferentem; giving the benefit of any doubt in favour of the party upon whom the contract was foisted. Some courts when seeking a particular result will use contra proferentem to take a strict approach against insurers and other powerful contracting parties and go so far as to interpret terms of the contract in favor of the other party, even where the meaning of a term would appear clear and unambiguous on its face, although this application is disfavored.
Contra proferentem also places the cost of losses on the party who was in the best position to avoid the harm. This is generally the person who drafted the contract. An example of this is the insurance contract, a great example of the contract of adhesion, above. There, the insurance company is the party that is completely in control of the terms of the contract and is generally in a better position to, for example, avoid contractual forfeiture. This is a principle of long standing. See, for example, California Civil Code §1654 (“In cases of uncertainty . . . the language of a contract should be interpreted most strongly against the party who caused the uncertainty to exist.") California enacted this section in 1872. Numerous other states have codified the rule as well.
International legislation such as the European Principles of Contract Law, have also codified this rule of law. Also, in the arbitration procedures of the International Chamber of Commerce there are (a few) cases in which arbitrators recall the principle of contra proferentem in their legal reasoning."
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
Be careful.
My belief is that your contract will say that if the quantities are outside the +/- 15% band from the BoQ, then the rates in the BoQ will be subject to renegotiation / revision. This will not necessarily be a variation to the Works, as the contract drawings and specification may mean that the quantities in the BoQ are simply incorrect. This is implied by all your posts anyway.
In terms of a cash flow, you need to talk to the contractors QS and find out what rates he intends to apply to the elements which fall outside the 15% band. Use those for the initial cash flow, (it can only get better after that). When the firestorm subsides after you present the cash flow forecast, I am sure there will be enough resources applied to agreeing the new rates and you will have to adjust the cash flow(s) to suit the new rates.
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Dear ,Nieman
what you are tilling is very confident and correct.
Assume that we calculated the total quantities from the drawings and we found that thequantities have been increased by more than 15% and as per the contract if the quantities will increased or decreased by more than 15% so it is a variation and the contractor is entitel to adjust the rates and to get the over head and profit for the extra works passing 15% of the original quanyiyies in the BOQ.
also in this case how we can prepare the cash floe for the project.
Thanks
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
Agreed you need to load the quantities and resources, but these MUST relate to the drawings which describe the Works to be built - there is no point in using the BoQ just because they have the quantities someone else believed that it would take. You (the corporate you - probably a quantity surveyor or measurement engineer if they still exist) must take off the quantities from the contract drawings and you should then apply those quantities to the programme to get the necessary activity durations.
Also dont forget the old latin saying of contra preferendum, where the party that draws up the contract documents has the duty to make them all mutually self descriptive (assuming you are working under English Law). If there is any discrepancy between the documents, then the client is responsible and must hold the contractor harmless from the discrepancy.
Member for
18 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Clause 14 Program should be prepared as close as possible to the program that was Tendered and accepted by awarding the Contract.
Afterall a contract has to be what was contemplated at the time of award (offer, acceptance, meeting of minds, possibility of performance, legal, of sound mind, capacity to contract etc).
You should resist the notion that the Engineer can dictate to you how to run your business.
If the Engineer should insist on you programming the work in a manner not consistant with what you offered in your tender then you should insist that an instruction is given varying the work.
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Agreed ,but to prepare a realistic program in order to manage the project we have to load the quantities and resources .
so still we have to finalize the matter of the difference in quantities between the quntities estimated from the contract drawings and the quantities mentioned in the contract Bill Of Quantities and which one has to be considered and inserted in the program taking into consideration the cash flow and the original contract value.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
A programme is first and foremost a tool for managing the project, the answer therefore should be obvious.
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Please ,We need specified answers not a repeated and uncompleted statements.
Member for
18 years 4 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi
Ashraf !
If you are a Contractor,just follow first paragraph of what NICOLAS said.
It will be good for you.
Cheers
Member for
18 years 4 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf,
You may programme according to contract BOQ AND contract completion time, but this would be of little use,
except maybe in litigation
or
you may programme according to "real" quantities AND
corresponding "real" completion time, and check if the ten month is possible or not: if not -> EOT
hth
Nicolas
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
Of course there are common principles how a contract should be - but there is no obligation that it must be.
Important is the content of the contract. Be careful, we planners are no attorneys/lawyers. Transfer this question to the experts.
For us it is diffucult as well because we dont know in detail the complete contract.
Good luck
Dieter
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
I agreed with you that the total quatities and total amount
in the contract BOQ are approximate andwill be defferent form the quantuties calculated from the drawing but there is a limitaion should guid and contral these differences other wise the total quantities and total amount may will be double or treeble which is not acceptable and againest the condition of contract .
the condition of contract has limited the incease or decrease in the toatal quantities as well as the toal amount to 15% only and in our case it is more than this and how we can solve the problem of preparing a realistic cash flow in this case.
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
The tender programme must be based on the tender drawings, not the BoQ. How can you know where a particular amount of a billed rate is to fall within the programme unless you refer to the drawings. The BoQ is merely a vehicle for payment, and a guide only to the amount of work to be done.
Similarly the Contract programme baseline must be based on the Contract drawings issued when the contract is signed. This may (and probaly will) be different to the drawings at tender stage.
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
As you mentioned, there are different conditions in that contract: ".. shall not use as a basis .." would mean: you pay. "..Variations exceeding 15%.." would mean: they pay because you exceed by 20%.
The only advice I can give you: consult your lawyer - there is an obvious contradiction in terms of the contract. It is very dangerous if you try to solve this lack of contract - and: This is PMs responsibility.
Good luck!
Dieter
p.s. Ill leave now for the rest of the day (German time)
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Dieter
Thanks for your kind answer but i would like to high light the following conditions mantioned in our contract:-
1- Contract is remeasured contract.
2- the following points are mentioned in the preamble of the contract BOQ:
- Drawings, specifications , BOQ and all other documents are complementary and if any item is included in any of them , it shall be deemed ancluded in all.
- The contractor shall not use these BOQ as abasis for a construction program or for the purpose of ordering materials or arranging sub-contractor.
- The whole of the quantities shall be treated as approximate only and are given to provide common basis for tendering.
We have also in the condition of contract clause 52.3 "Vaiations Exceedung 15%"that the contractor has the right to clain if if the amount of the contract increased or decreased by more than 155 of the effective contract price.
still we are in opinion to use the quanyitities mentioned in the BOQ only if the deferce between the quantities calculated from the drawings and the quantitiesmentioned in the BOQ was more than 15% taking into consideration that the cash flow will not be realistic.
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf
The contract said that you’ll work with a certain quantity of steel, cubicmeters of rooms,.... Your offer and the agreed price were based on this quantity. After detaile Engineering it was shown that this assumption was wrong. The BoQ has to be changed. This is a change of scope - a CLAIM.
Now it depends from the contract; e.g.:
- Was the BoQ base of the contract --> claim and more money
- Was the BoQ an assumption to be proved by the contractor before signature --> bad luck for you
Read the contract or better: contact your lawyer.
Good luck
Dieter