What am saying is you cannot blame the structural designer for using the available data unless he is asked to do further investigation. Definitely, it is the geotechnical companys fault. Maybe, am making one step further to involved the owner. Thats my opinion.
I believe we should respect each others opinion regardless of the topic. I also believe that we should agree among ourserlves that we may have some disagreements with some of the topics here. What I dont agree is to post unnecessary comments which impedes free flow of ideas.
Se
Member for
24 years 6 months
Member for24 years6 months
Submitted by Tomas Rivera on Tue, 2003-08-12 01:46
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing. I supposed that you meant that the geotechnical company erred on predicting the actual soil beaing capacity at the foundation specific location. Now, with your latest comments I think you are saying that the geotechnical company made a mistake with the procedure of soil testing, with the calculations or with some criterion they used to produce their report. If this is the case, it is common sense that they are at fault; therefore, it is their responsability. There is no doubt about that. Why would you ask such a question? And it is common sense that it is a case of professional responsability for which you might be legally bound to make good any damage. This depends on the legal structure of your country.
Now with the structural engineer. He must rely on the report made by the geotechnical company up to certain degree. He cannot know whether the soil testing was done properly or not. Usually, calculations are shown in the report, the criteria used and the recommendations. The structural engineer should verify several things: whether the report fits his needs, whether the criteria used and recommendations are acceptable to him. This is the extent of the responsability of the structural engineer. He is not directly responsible for errors by the geotechnical company. But he might be liable to his client if he hired (therefore, responsible) the geotechnical company. If the structural engineer did not review the report properly and used it blindly, he is also at fault by being negligent. It is also common sense that this is also a case of professional responsability.
Yes, I am saying that the structural engineer should exercise his judgement to decide whether he uses a particular geotechnical report as the basis for his structural design. If he decides not to, he should state his reasons.
You might not know this, but common sense, responsability, and liability are closely related terms. There are two general types of law: common law and statute law. Common law is based on common sense. Your original question asked who would be liable. Liable means legally bound. I stated that I was not a lawyer, so I used common sense (that might have produced a law in your country) to give you an answer. Therefore, this is a case of common sense. But also, it is a case of professional responsability. We are talking about the same thing. It is not one or the other.
Tomas Rivera
Altek System
Scheduling of high performance
construction projects
Member for
22 years 3 months
Member for22 years3 months
Submitted by Nestor Principe on Tue, 2003-08-12 01:38
My question here is only hyphothetical and I have not encountered an actual situation such as this.
Again, what if the bore log or other laboratory soil test for that matter was incorrect due to some reason. Lets say during a reinvestigation, it shows that the bore log was really incorrect thus, an admission from the geotechnical company is not necessary anymore.
Regards,
Se
Member for
22 years 3 months
Member for22 years3 months
Submitted by Nestor Principe on Tue, 2003-08-12 00:24
Are you saying it will be up to the structural designer if he wishes to use or not to use a professional report such as this?
Yes I agree with you that the structural engineer should excercise his professional judgement on this. But, my question is if he follows the recommendation of this geotechnical company, isnt it fair that this company should share some liability or worst be liable entirely because of an erroneous report, anyway he was paid to do that.
Ill be specific on this. If the geotechnical company specifies a soil bearing capacity and the structural uses this value in computing the structural elements of the building.
I beg to disagree with you that this is a case of common sense. I believe this is a case of professional responsibility which may or may not be the same for every country.
Se
Member for
24 years 6 months
Member for24 years6 months
Submitted by Tomas Rivera on Mon, 2003-08-11 20:21
It depends on who contracted/ordered the geotechnical work. The structural engineer should specify the geotechnical study he needs for the structural design.
Also, there are some risks involved in this kind of studies. The soil might or might not be homogeneous. The study itself will show data that you use to infer whether you need additional data or not. This kind of decision also depends on the history of the land. If you follow standard practice and your initial study does not show any evidence of your soil not being homogeneous, you go ahead and use this study. It is also a standard practice in many places that if the soil you find during construction you need to direct the attention of the engineer to make the proper changes.
If everybody followed industry recommended or standard practice, the risk should be taken by the owner.
I am not a construction lawyer, but this is common sense, at least to me, of how things should be.
Member for
22 years 3 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Se,
What am saying is you cannot blame the structural designer for using the available data unless he is asked to do further investigation. Definitely, it is the geotechnical companys fault. Maybe, am making one step further to involved the owner. Thats my opinion.
Regards,
Nestor
Member for
24 years 5 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Hi Everybody,
I believe we should respect each others opinion regardless of the topic. I also believe that we should agree among ourserlves that we may have some disagreements with some of the topics here. What I dont agree is to post unnecessary comments which impedes free flow of ideas.
Se
Member for
24 years 6 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Sigfredo:
Maybe we are not talking about the same thing. I supposed that you meant that the geotechnical company erred on predicting the actual soil beaing capacity at the foundation specific location. Now, with your latest comments I think you are saying that the geotechnical company made a mistake with the procedure of soil testing, with the calculations or with some criterion they used to produce their report. If this is the case, it is common sense that they are at fault; therefore, it is their responsability. There is no doubt about that. Why would you ask such a question? And it is common sense that it is a case of professional responsability for which you might be legally bound to make good any damage. This depends on the legal structure of your country.
Now with the structural engineer. He must rely on the report made by the geotechnical company up to certain degree. He cannot know whether the soil testing was done properly or not. Usually, calculations are shown in the report, the criteria used and the recommendations. The structural engineer should verify several things: whether the report fits his needs, whether the criteria used and recommendations are acceptable to him. This is the extent of the responsability of the structural engineer. He is not directly responsible for errors by the geotechnical company. But he might be liable to his client if he hired (therefore, responsible) the geotechnical company. If the structural engineer did not review the report properly and used it blindly, he is also at fault by being negligent. It is also common sense that this is also a case of professional responsability.
Yes, I am saying that the structural engineer should exercise his judgement to decide whether he uses a particular geotechnical report as the basis for his structural design. If he decides not to, he should state his reasons.
You might not know this, but common sense, responsability, and liability are closely related terms. There are two general types of law: common law and statute law. Common law is based on common sense. Your original question asked who would be liable. Liable means legally bound. I stated that I was not a lawyer, so I used common sense (that might have produced a law in your country) to give you an answer. Therefore, this is a case of common sense. But also, it is a case of professional responsability. We are talking about the same thing. It is not one or the other.
Tomas Rivera
Altek System
Scheduling of high performance
construction projects
Member for
22 years 3 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Se,
In that case, I guess it all depend on the agreement between the owner and geotechnical company on the scope of the works.
I would say, it should be responsibility of the owner for taking the risk to hire unreliable geotechnical company.
regards,
Nestor
Member for
24 years 5 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Nestor,
My question here is only hyphothetical and I have not encountered an actual situation such as this.
Again, what if the bore log or other laboratory soil test for that matter was incorrect due to some reason. Lets say during a reinvestigation, it shows that the bore log was really incorrect thus, an admission from the geotechnical company is not necessary anymore.
Regards,
Se
Member for
22 years 3 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
hi SE,
I just want to to know if the geo company admitted the mistake.
regards
Nestor
Member for
24 years 5 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Hi Tomas,
Are you saying it will be up to the structural designer if he wishes to use or not to use a professional report such as this?
Yes I agree with you that the structural engineer should excercise his professional judgement on this. But, my question is if he follows the recommendation of this geotechnical company, isnt it fair that this company should share some liability or worst be liable entirely because of an erroneous report, anyway he was paid to do that.
Ill be specific on this. If the geotechnical company specifies a soil bearing capacity and the structural uses this value in computing the structural elements of the building.
I beg to disagree with you that this is a case of common sense. I believe this is a case of professional responsibility which may or may not be the same for every country.
Se
Member for
24 years 6 monthsRE: Error in Bore Log Report
Sigfredo:
It depends on who contracted/ordered the geotechnical work. The structural engineer should specify the geotechnical study he needs for the structural design.
Also, there are some risks involved in this kind of studies. The soil might or might not be homogeneous. The study itself will show data that you use to infer whether you need additional data or not. This kind of decision also depends on the history of the land. If you follow standard practice and your initial study does not show any evidence of your soil not being homogeneous, you go ahead and use this study. It is also a standard practice in many places that if the soil you find during construction you need to direct the attention of the engineer to make the proper changes.
If everybody followed industry recommended or standard practice, the risk should be taken by the owner.
I am not a construction lawyer, but this is common sense, at least to me, of how things should be.
Tomas Rivera
Altek System
Scheduling of high performance
construction projects