My Contract has mentioned of Daywork rates,I have some variation claims for which I have used daywork rates, can some please guide me if Daywork rates includes contractor's overhaead and profit or not.
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20 years 10 months
Member for20 years10 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Wed, 2006-08-30 10:25
Read the contract - most standard forms tell you how extra works, etc are to be valued. Usually by reference at first to bill rates or activity schedule rates (if they exist) and then various other methods with dayworks normally the last resort and reserved for the type of work that cant be valued any other way
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21 years 3 months
Member for21 years3 months
Submitted by John Whitney on Mon, 2006-08-28 04:01
This thread rather seems to be going round in circles if I may say so.
The entitlement to payment on dayworks can only come about if the client has actually pre-ordered the work to be done on dayworks. If the work has not been ordered on dayworks but you as the contractor have unilaterally kept records of the resources, then that is what you have - a contemporary record and nothing more. The very act of keeping contemporary records does not equate to securing a contractual entitlement.
If the client’s staff agrees to pay for the work on dayworks but have refused to sign the daywork record sheets, then they will have put themselves in an impossible situation if they later wish to dispute the record. I have had experience of this, where a refusal to sign sheets by the client’s staff led to the contractor’s unilateral record being accepted as the fact (I believe there is legal precedent on this). However, the client may for whatever reason argue that the work can be valued and paid for not on dayworks but in another way (e.g. analogous rates).
Usually, the client’s staff signs the sheets “RPO” (“record purposes only”) which gives them a convenient escape route if someone queries the hours later. I’m surprised that the people in your case have refused to do even this. Signing such sheets “RPO” is no admission of liability.
As for as the client’s QS arguing that the time spent is excessive, he has to justify such a statement objectively. He cannot cut the hours without any logical basis. Again, he is in no position to dispute the hours after-the-fact, if his colleagues have failed or refused to sign the contemporary record.
I hope the above helps.
Cheers,
John
Member for
19 years 11 months
Member for19 years11 months
Submitted by Samagata Chakravorty on Sat, 2006-08-26 07:18
Howz evrythng? Heard u after a long time. Here r my comments on the 2 scenarios mentioned by u:
Scenario 1: A Joint record (maintained by the Contractors rep & engineer /architect) is the surest way to validation of any claim raised by the contractor. Else the same can be dismissed by the engineers QS as nobody from the engineers side has validated such claim.
Scenario 2: The engineers QS is not entitled to unilaterally reduce the hours included in the day work sheet (even if they seem unreasonable or excessive) if the same bears the engineers signature and therefore been validated by the engineer. However, on discussion with the engineer and the contractors rep and subsequent mutual agreement (if there had actually been any erroneous recording), the engineers QS can take such a step.
Member for
19 years 7 months
Member for19 years7 months
Submitted by Karim Mounir on Sat, 2006-08-26 02:45
If u dealing with an item outside the BOQ, then u should have made the engineers representative sign the day work sheets for these items, otherwise the QS can reject your unapproved day work sheets as there is no proof for your allegations.
Scenario 2:
No, the QS cant change an approved signed day work sheet since that it has been approved by the engineers representative, u can raise this issue to the CA in the engineers party.
Member for
19 years 11 months
Member for19 years11 months
Submitted by Samagata Chakravorty on Wed, 2006-08-23 08:38
the contractor submits the day-work sheets for an additional/new work, but nobody from the engineer/ architects side signs it. but later at the time of payment can the engineers QS reject the contractors claim totally for that work on the excuse that none from the engineers/ architects side has signed off the daywork sheets.
Scenario 2:
Is the engineer’s quantity surveyor entitled to reduce the hours included in daywork sheet if he considers them unreasonable or excessive, even if the same has already been signed off by the engineers/architects representaive.
Member for
19 years 7 months
Member for19 years7 months
Submitted by Karim Mounir on Tue, 2006-08-22 02:30
When the contractor submit a claim, the engineer should review all the documents related to this claim (eg. letters, IRs, method statements, etc..), the person in the engineers side who should review the cost/qty. related items is the QS.
So the contractor should submitt all the approved documents by the engineer inorder to assist him in the claim.
Member for
19 years 11 months
Member for19 years11 months
Submitted by Samagata Chakravorty on Tue, 2006-08-22 01:54
but i what to know even after submitting the day-work sheets for a particlur activty, can the engineers quantity surveyor/ contract administrator totally reject the contractors claim for payment on the pretext that they are not signed off by the engineer??
also i would like to know the following,
Is the engineers quantity surveyor entitled to reduce the hours included on a signed (by the engineer)daywork sheet if he considers them unreasonable or excessive?
thanx in advance.
sam
Member for
21 years 3 months
Member for21 years3 months
Submitted by John Whitney on Mon, 2006-08-21 06:19
Just because the contractor considers he is due payment on a dayworks basis does not make it so. It depends on the contract and how the clauses deal with variation valuation. If the work can be valued by other means (eg analagous rates) then the client may well do that. The mere recording of work on "dayworks" is simply a record of the resources used - not a proof of entitlement nor an admission of liability.
John
Member for
21 years 3 months
Member for21 years3 months
Submitted by John Whitney on Mon, 2006-08-21 06:13
Member for
19 years 10 monthsUsually Daywork rates are net
Usually Daywork rates are net of O/heads & Profit but check what the contract says or any notes in the BOQ.
Member for
13 years 9 monthsMy Contract has mentioned of
My Contract has mentioned of Daywork rates,I have some variation claims for which I have used daywork rates, can some please guide me if Daywork rates includes contractor's overhaead and profit or not.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
John got this one spot on.
Read the contract - most standard forms tell you how extra works, etc are to be valued. Usually by reference at first to bill rates or activity schedule rates (if they exist) and then various other methods with dayworks normally the last resort and reserved for the type of work that cant be valued any other way
Member for
21 years 3 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
This thread rather seems to be going round in circles if I may say so.
The entitlement to payment on dayworks can only come about if the client has actually pre-ordered the work to be done on dayworks. If the work has not been ordered on dayworks but you as the contractor have unilaterally kept records of the resources, then that is what you have - a contemporary record and nothing more. The very act of keeping contemporary records does not equate to securing a contractual entitlement.
If the client’s staff agrees to pay for the work on dayworks but have refused to sign the daywork record sheets, then they will have put themselves in an impossible situation if they later wish to dispute the record. I have had experience of this, where a refusal to sign sheets by the client’s staff led to the contractor’s unilateral record being accepted as the fact (I believe there is legal precedent on this). However, the client may for whatever reason argue that the work can be valued and paid for not on dayworks but in another way (e.g. analogous rates).
Usually, the client’s staff signs the sheets “RPO” (“record purposes only”) which gives them a convenient escape route if someone queries the hours later. I’m surprised that the people in your case have refused to do even this. Signing such sheets “RPO” is no admission of liability.
As for as the client’s QS arguing that the time spent is excessive, he has to justify such a statement objectively. He cannot cut the hours without any logical basis. Again, he is in no position to dispute the hours after-the-fact, if his colleagues have failed or refused to sign the contemporary record.
I hope the above helps.
Cheers,
John
Member for
19 years 11 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Thanx Karim & Devamalya for your valuable comments.
Member for
20 yearsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Hi Sam!
Howz evrythng? Heard u after a long time. Here r my comments on the 2 scenarios mentioned by u:
Scenario 1: A Joint record (maintained by the Contractors rep & engineer /architect) is the surest way to validation of any claim raised by the contractor. Else the same can be dismissed by the engineers QS as nobody from the engineers side has validated such claim.
Scenario 2: The engineers QS is not entitled to unilaterally reduce the hours included in the day work sheet (even if they seem unreasonable or excessive) if the same bears the engineers signature and therefore been validated by the engineer. However, on discussion with the engineer and the contractors rep and subsequent mutual agreement (if there had actually been any erroneous recording), the engineers QS can take such a step.
Member for
19 years 7 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Sam,
Scenario 1:
If u dealing with an item outside the BOQ, then u should have made the engineers representative sign the day work sheets for these items, otherwise the QS can reject your unapproved day work sheets as there is no proof for your allegations.
Scenario 2:
No, the QS cant change an approved signed day work sheet since that it has been approved by the engineers representative, u can raise this issue to the CA in the engineers party.
Member for
19 years 11 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
thanx Karim for your inputs,
but my query is bit different,
scenario 1:
the contractor submits the day-work sheets for an additional/new work, but nobody from the engineer/ architects side signs it. but later at the time of payment can the engineers QS reject the contractors claim totally for that work on the excuse that none from the engineers/ architects side has signed off the daywork sheets.
Scenario 2:
Is the engineer’s quantity surveyor entitled to reduce the hours included in daywork sheet if he considers them unreasonable or excessive, even if the same has already been signed off by the engineers/architects representaive.
Member for
19 years 7 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Sam,
When the contractor submit a claim, the engineer should review all the documents related to this claim (eg. letters, IRs, method statements, etc..), the person in the engineers side who should review the cost/qty. related items is the QS.
So the contractor should submitt all the approved documents by the engineer inorder to assist him in the claim.
Member for
19 years 11 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
thanx John,
but i what to know even after submitting the day-work sheets for a particlur activty, can the engineers quantity surveyor/ contract administrator totally reject the contractors claim for payment on the pretext that they are not signed off by the engineer??
also i would like to know the following,
Is the engineers quantity surveyor entitled to reduce the hours included on a signed (by the engineer)daywork sheet if he considers them unreasonable or excessive?
thanx in advance.
sam
Member for
21 years 3 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Sam,
Sorry, my previous reply was incomplete.
Just because the contractor considers he is due payment on a dayworks basis does not make it so. It depends on the contract and how the clauses deal with variation valuation. If the work can be valued by other means (eg analagous rates) then the client may well do that. The mere recording of work on "dayworks" is simply a record of the resources used - not a proof of entitlement nor an admission of liability.
John
Member for
21 years 3 monthsRE: Entitlement to payment on day-work basis
Sam,
Unless they are contradicted on the record immediately by the client, eventually they will stand as the true record of the work done.
I seem to recall a case on this, but the name escapes me.
John