Week 1 would depend on the Contract terms; When writing the Contract we dictate specific deliverables (plans, procedures etc.) which are all measured from the award date since this is set in stone (Effective date). Everything is measured from there. The Project schedule (programme) aligns itself from this starting point.
Foot soldier or not (!) you should still make Week 1 based on whatever common sense makes it out to be for you!
Better to make a realistic and supportable assumption than to side–step the issue entirely.
As I noted earlier, provided that it is clear what Week 1 is, it should be prior to the start of any relevant project work activities for which the Contractor is to be reimbursed and/or incurs project costs.
I am not entirely convinced of the principle that Week 1 should be Contract Award and that any work carried out before then would be carried out in Week -1, Week -2, Week -3 etc; to my mind this just adds to the possibility of mistakes and misunderstandings!! ;-)
Your given options "contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract timing" always mention in your Contract so better to follow the Contract.
Such things should be negotiated at the tendering stage before Award of Contract as these are critical issues.
If you find, there is any discrepancies in such conditions, rectification at tender stage and all your project is based on these items.
Member for
20 years 3 months
Member for20 years4 months
Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Mon, 2005-09-12 14:34
On reflection, i now agree on all your ideas. Week 1 of a contract is better left for my boss to decide with the client.
Im just a foot soldier, obey first before you complain.
So,as planning engineer if week 1 is refer to this date, then i will follow. If it will change then I will change also the Primavera schedule as instructed.
Im thinking of a new thread: the evolution of contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract timing. The idea is to give a bird eye view of the process in agreeing to the contract timing. what do you think?
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
20 years 10 months
Member for20 years10 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sun, 2005-09-11 10:18
I thought someone might question my comment and it was made because of the potential pitfalls of deciding when the contract was made.
There are a huge amount of cases where this has been a matter for the courts to decide and sometimes even if there was a valid contract at all. The legal rules of offer, counter offer and acceptance of a simple contract are not straightforward and contracts under deed (which many construction contracts are) complicate the situation even further.
The contract may come into existence through a telephone call, e mail, posting or receiving of a letter (depending on the facts), reference to a condition or date or only on the signing of the contract. Hence, unless you have a good knowledge of this part of contract law Id suggest its not a good reference point to use because you might unintentionally get it very wrong.
Intended start on site date always seemed a good place for week 1 in my experience, anything occurring prior to this was just referenced by week -1, -2, -3, etc.
Member for
20 years 3 months
Member for20 years4 months
Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Sun, 2005-09-11 01:08
In general I agree with your idea. I also read your post and I agree with most of them.
I only find it hard to agree on the specific phrase “ … Consequently, Week 1 of his work program will be prior to Contract Award”.
The fundamental reason is the implication in our work as planning engineer. You see if a planning engineer cannot understand the contract scope of planning including interpretation of contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract milestone date, etc., then it will reflect badly on his professional experience. Can you imagine the consequence in preparing a schedule with more than 5,000, 10,000 or 40,000 activity in Primavera P3 ver 3.1 and all your effort gone because you don’t know “when is week 1 of a contract”.
It is for this reason that we have to be clear on “when is week 1 of a contract”. In addition we should know how to interpret contract documents and arrive at the reasonable “week 1 of a contract”.
Andrew’s idea is also good but, I still don’t know why he add “then it could cause some problems. If the approach is reasonable and it will cause problems, then, it is still not good enough for us planning engineers because our work will be subject to dispute.
Cheers
Member for
20 years 10 months
Member for20 years10 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sat, 2005-09-10 10:52
Intersting discussion going on here. I dont think week 1 actually has a fixed definition. It could be award, intended start on site or as otherwise stated in the contract. Whatever the case, it relates to a fixed point so that all other events can be defined from it.
If you were trying to be precise in its definition then surely week 1 of the contract would be the week proceeding the date when the contract came into existence!!!!!
And if we all used that then it could cause some problems!
Hence, if the contract doesnt define it, use what you think best and agree it amongst the parties involved.
Member for
20 years 3 months
Member for20 years4 months
Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Sat, 2005-09-10 10:16
I think you change your query in post #12 from the original question as per post 1.
Take note “when monies will start to be spent” considering your contractor background.
1.) In my observation, as contractor, you have spent monies already during the tender stage, buying tender documents, preparation of bids (pay the engineers, office supplies, etc), submission of bids (tender bonds, etc.).
2.) In the event you win the tender and got confidence that you will be awarded the contract, as contractor, you will start to spend for bonds (performance bonds, guarantee bonds, etc), a lot of initial overhead expenses that will be charge (later on) to projects, etc. Additional expenses will depends upon the philosophy that guided your experience as a contractor. You can make a plunge and take the risk with LOI only or you will wait for formal contract before spending additional monies. When to spent will depend upon you as an experienced constructor.
In my experience, it is not unusual to have a Contractor carry out certain work – such as pre-engineering work, or mobilisation work, or advance material ordering work – in advance of the Contract being formally executed and awarded. The prudent Contractor will always do this against a LOI or some other form of guarantee that he will be paid for his efforts, of course.
Under this arrangement, a ‘contract’ will be deemed to have been entered into, albeit in advance of the execution of the Main Contract.
A schedule-related question will arise, of course, as to whether the work carried out by the Contractor in the weeks before the formal execution date are to be included within or excluded from the overall period for execution and completion of the Works. These are fertile grounds for disputes, believe me!
And what happens in the situation where the Works are executed and completed, with no formal Contract having been signed?? It does happen! ;-)
To return to my original response in this matter, (to which I note you agreed, Charlie!), I still hold the view that week 1 is merely the point in time prior to which subsequent project activities are required to take place, and to suggest otherwise may be short-sighted!
What is also important, of course, is to clearly denote the formal contractual commencement date on the schedule, irrespective of when that is. But that is not necessarily the same as week 1.
Thank you very much everyone. I think this a good example of how we as planners need to be on our toes contractually.
I bow to all the experience within the planning planet membership but I am from a contractor backgrouund and need to know when monies will start to be spent - my line in the sand- the bottom line!
Member for
20 years 3 months
Member for20 years4 months
Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Sat, 2005-09-10 08:27
Hi Stuart Ness, (to differentiate from Stuart Atkinson),
I beg to disagree.
Take note the question is "when is week 1 of a contract?".
Generally , the latest project contract documents have contractual duration, Start Date, Finish Date and other milestone clearly stated in the documents. This is done due to the very nature of projects, e.g., to have start date and finish date.
Week 1 is reckoned from the contractual start date. IMHO.
Whatever activities done before agreement of contract will be risk of the party doing those activities.
That may be so, but in many cases Contract Commencement Date and Contract Award (and Possession of Site Date) can often be days if not weeks apart (and not necessarily in that sequence!!) ;-)
But as you have noted, if it is necessary for the Contractor to get all of his ducks in a row prior to execution of the Contract, then surely by definition, his work schedule will also have commenced prior to the Contract being signed.
Consequently, Week 1 of his work programme will be prior to Contract Award…
I would not be so dogmatic as to draw a line in the sand at the same point for each project. ;-)
Every project is unique, and the decisions on how and when and in what sequence each project is to be executed, are also unique.
Be flexible enough to ensure that your ‘line in the sand’ is truly reflective of the needs of that particular project, otherwise it could be a ‘line in the quick-sand’
Thanks again Gents. My personal view is that week 1 of a project is when we (contractor/client)are awarded the contract. Obviously this does not take into account LOI situations and the intentions of the parties, etc. It just seems to be a good line in the sand.Although sometimes necessary the procurement of specialist kit before contract award can be risky to say the least.
Member for
20 years 3 months
Member for20 years4 months
Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Fri, 2005-09-09 07:13
That is why if contractors got site possesion 90 days after the contractual start date, then, they have to hire people with the same training as you got.
Week 1 or whatever has no meaning since project contract duration always start with contract start date.
Week 1 is merely a point in time prior to which subsequent project related activities take place.
What is important is that all relevant activities and milestones are clearly set out.
To those who think that Week 1 is based on the date of Contract Award, this does not accommodate any pre-contract work, such as engineering, which may be required to be carried out under the terms of a LOI. Nor does it deal with the obligation of a Contractor to place procurement orders for specialist materials with long lead times in advance of the project commencement date.
Don’t fall into making the common mistake of thinking that Week 1 always equals start of work on Site.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: Contract timing
Thought I may as well throw in pence worth
Week 1 would depend on the Contract terms; When writing the Contract we dictate specific deliverables (plans, procedures etc.) which are all measured from the award date since this is set in stone (Effective date). Everything is measured from there. The Project schedule (programme) aligns itself from this starting point.
IMHO
Geoff
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Charlie,
Foot soldier or not (!) you should still make Week 1 based on whatever common sense makes it out to be for you!
Better to make a realistic and supportable assumption than to side–step the issue entirely.
As I noted earlier, provided that it is clear what Week 1 is, it should be prior to the start of any relevant project work activities for which the Contractor is to be reimbursed and/or incurs project costs.
I am not entirely convinced of the principle that Week 1 should be Contract Award and that any work carried out before then would be carried out in Week -1, Week -2, Week -3 etc; to my mind this just adds to the possibility of mistakes and misunderstandings!! ;-)
Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Orbe
Your given options "contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract timing" always mention in your Contract so better to follow the Contract.
Such things should be negotiated at the tendering stage before Award of Contract as these are critical issues.
If you find, there is any discrepancies in such conditions, rectification at tender stage and all your project is based on these items.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hi Andrew,
Hi Stuart,
On reflection, i now agree on all your ideas. Week 1 of a contract is better left for my boss to decide with the client.
Im just a foot soldier, obey first before you complain.
So,as planning engineer if week 1 is refer to this date, then i will follow. If it will change then I will change also the Primavera schedule as instructed.
Im thinking of a new thread: the evolution of contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract timing. The idea is to give a bird eye view of the process in agreeing to the contract timing. what do you think?
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Contract timing
Charleston,
I thought someone might question my comment and it was made because of the potential pitfalls of deciding when the contract was made.
There are a huge amount of cases where this has been a matter for the courts to decide and sometimes even if there was a valid contract at all. The legal rules of offer, counter offer and acceptance of a simple contract are not straightforward and contracts under deed (which many construction contracts are) complicate the situation even further.
The contract may come into existence through a telephone call, e mail, posting or receiving of a letter (depending on the facts), reference to a condition or date or only on the signing of the contract. Hence, unless you have a good knowledge of this part of contract law Id suggest its not a good reference point to use because you might unintentionally get it very wrong.
Intended start on site date always seemed a good place for week 1 in my experience, anything occurring prior to this was just referenced by week -1, -2, -3, etc.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hi Stuart N,
Hi Stuart N,
In general I agree with your idea. I also read your post and I agree with most of them.
I only find it hard to agree on the specific phrase “ … Consequently, Week 1 of his work program will be prior to Contract Award”.
The fundamental reason is the implication in our work as planning engineer. You see if a planning engineer cannot understand the contract scope of planning including interpretation of contract duration, contract start date, contract finish date, contract milestone date, etc., then it will reflect badly on his professional experience. Can you imagine the consequence in preparing a schedule with more than 5,000, 10,000 or 40,000 activity in Primavera P3 ver 3.1 and all your effort gone because you don’t know “when is week 1 of a contract”.
It is for this reason that we have to be clear on “when is week 1 of a contract”. In addition we should know how to interpret contract documents and arrive at the reasonable “week 1 of a contract”.
Andrew’s idea is also good but, I still don’t know why he add “then it could cause some problems. If the approach is reasonable and it will cause problems, then, it is still not good enough for us planning engineers because our work will be subject to dispute.
Cheers
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hi all,
Intersting discussion going on here. I dont think week 1 actually has a fixed definition. It could be award, intended start on site or as otherwise stated in the contract. Whatever the case, it relates to a fixed point so that all other events can be defined from it.
If you were trying to be precise in its definition then surely week 1 of the contract would be the week proceeding the date when the contract came into existence!!!!!
And if we all used that then it could cause some problems!
Hence, if the contract doesnt define it, use what you think best and agree it amongst the parties involved.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hello Stuart A,
I think you change your query in post #12 from the original question as per post 1.
Take note “when monies will start to be spent” considering your contractor background.
1.) In my observation, as contractor, you have spent monies already during the tender stage, buying tender documents, preparation of bids (pay the engineers, office supplies, etc), submission of bids (tender bonds, etc.).
2.) In the event you win the tender and got confidence that you will be awarded the contract, as contractor, you will start to spend for bonds (performance bonds, guarantee bonds, etc), a lot of initial overhead expenses that will be charge (later on) to projects, etc. Additional expenses will depends upon the philosophy that guided your experience as a contractor. You can make a plunge and take the risk with LOI only or you will wait for formal contract before spending additional monies. When to spent will depend upon you as an experienced constructor.
I wish I answered your post #12. IMHO.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hi Charlie,
I beg to disagree too… ;-)
In my experience, it is not unusual to have a Contractor carry out certain work – such as pre-engineering work, or mobilisation work, or advance material ordering work – in advance of the Contract being formally executed and awarded. The prudent Contractor will always do this against a LOI or some other form of guarantee that he will be paid for his efforts, of course.
Under this arrangement, a ‘contract’ will be deemed to have been entered into, albeit in advance of the execution of the Main Contract.
A schedule-related question will arise, of course, as to whether the work carried out by the Contractor in the weeks before the formal execution date are to be included within or excluded from the overall period for execution and completion of the Works. These are fertile grounds for disputes, believe me!
And what happens in the situation where the Works are executed and completed, with no formal Contract having been signed?? It does happen! ;-)
To return to my original response in this matter, (to which I note you agreed, Charlie!), I still hold the view that week 1 is merely the point in time prior to which subsequent project activities are required to take place, and to suggest otherwise may be short-sighted!
What is also important, of course, is to clearly denote the formal contractual commencement date on the schedule, irrespective of when that is. But that is not necessarily the same as week 1.
Hope this clarifies,
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
21 years 9 monthsRE: Contract timing
Again,
Thank you very much everyone. I think this a good example of how we as planners need to be on our toes contractually.
I bow to all the experience within the planning planet membership but I am from a contractor backgrouund and need to know when monies will start to be spent - my line in the sand- the bottom line!
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hi Stuart Ness, (to differentiate from Stuart Atkinson),
I beg to disagree.
Take note the question is "when is week 1 of a contract?".
Generally , the latest project contract documents have contractual duration, Start Date, Finish Date and other milestone clearly stated in the documents. This is done due to the very nature of projects, e.g., to have start date and finish date.
Week 1 is reckoned from the contractual start date. IMHO.
Whatever activities done before agreement of contract will be risk of the party doing those activities.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Bill,
That may be so, but in many cases Contract Commencement Date and Contract Award (and Possession of Site Date) can often be days if not weeks apart (and not necessarily in that sequence!!) ;-)
But as you have noted, if it is necessary for the Contractor to get all of his ducks in a row prior to execution of the Contract, then surely by definition, his work schedule will also have commenced prior to the Contract being signed.
Consequently, Week 1 of his work programme will be prior to Contract Award…
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Stuart,
I would not be so dogmatic as to draw a line in the sand at the same point for each project. ;-)
Every project is unique, and the decisions on how and when and in what sequence each project is to be executed, are also unique.
Be flexible enough to ensure that your ‘line in the sand’ is truly reflective of the needs of that particular project, otherwise it could be a ‘line in the quick-sand’
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
21 years 9 monthsRE: Contract timing
Thanks again Gents. My personal view is that week 1 of a project is when we (contractor/client)are awarded the contract. Obviously this does not take into account LOI situations and the intentions of the parties, etc. It just seems to be a good line in the sand.Although sometimes necessary the procurement of specialist kit before contract award can be risky to say the least.
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hello Stuart,
I agree with you.
That is why if contractors got site possesion 90 days after the contractual start date, then, they have to hire people with the same training as you got.
Week 1 or whatever has no meaning since project contract duration always start with contract start date.
Only my humble opinion.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
21 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Stuart,
Week 1 is what you choose to make it!
Week 1 is merely a point in time prior to which subsequent project related activities take place.
What is important is that all relevant activities and milestones are clearly set out.
To those who think that Week 1 is based on the date of Contract Award, this does not accommodate any pre-contract work, such as engineering, which may be required to be carried out under the terms of a LOI. Nor does it deal with the obligation of a Contractor to place procurement orders for specialist materials with long lead times in advance of the project commencement date.
Don’t fall into making the common mistake of thinking that Week 1 always equals start of work on Site.
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Stuart
www.rosmartin.com
Member for
21 years 9 monthsRE: Contract timing
Thank you all for your prompt replies. Would any other members care to respond?
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: Contract timing
Hello Stuart,
Week 1 will start ....
depends upon the wording of particular project contract
(a.) Some wording of projects contracts im involved with states that the project duration is XXX days upon signing of contract.
(b.) Some wording of project contracts im also involved with states the project duration is XXX days upon contract award.
In both cases (a) and (b) it is very clear when is week 1.
But what if site possession happen XXX days plus 90 days after either (a) or (b) as above. When is week 1.
Any answers???
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
22 years 4 monthsRE: Contract timing
Week 1 relates to your commencement date not Contract Award date