This thread has lost its way and is long past it’s respond by date – I suggest (being the starter of the thread) that the moderators now close it for further discussion.
There must be an opportunity to discuss the merits of software after all they are the tools we use… in the same way that joiners will discuss the merits of Spear & Jackson –v- Stanley. What I had hoped for when starting this thread was some critical discussion and factual stuff rather than “X is best ‘cos I always use it, so there”. I am afraid this thread has generated a lot of heat but no light.
Whilst in general I welcome expression of opinion, even those who resort to uniformed comment must realise worthlessness of such statements and, more importantly, the potential dangers that can cause in an information led society. And that has nothing to do with one’s native language or culture!
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, this is my last posting on the subject!
Sometime it is very difficult to teach a old dog with new tricks. And some of us (planner) are very attached to particular software that you have to understand. That will cause a blind eyes to everything else, however it is very hard for the person / us to admit.
And sometime people claim they know the software because they went to a conference or see the demo or play around the software for couple of hrs and found that it is not exactly the same as what they use to. Then they will come to a conclusion that the software is not good.
During your discussion I can see some of it already. And I had the similar experience with some of the PPs in the forum.
What we have to do is to understand and respect their way of thinking. And agree to disagree.
Good Luck and keep planning
Cheers
Alex
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Submitted by Darrell ODea on Wed, 2005-10-05 08:50
As I have stated endlessly I do not think there is such thing as the ‘best’ software. There are too many factors to consider. I appreciate there may be a favourite software – but I think that is more to do with familiarity with the product than anything else.
For the record, I regularly use Primavera, MS Project and Powerproject. The primary reason for which one I chose is what software was the original programme I am working on produced in and does my client have any preferences.
Unfortunately, even though I use P3 I have not yet reached the ‘xanadu of critical thinking’. I guess that must be because when I use MSP and Powerproject my senses get dulled.
I was not intending to criticise you use of the English language (after all it is the only one I know) but to question your view of critical thinking and why you think only P3 can reach the parts that other software cannot. Also, the definition I gave was not mine, as I said, but that of ‘The Critical Thinking Community’ whom I assume have put a lot of critical thought into their definition.
I also like your implied assumption that I am not a critical thinker, what ever one of those is (that, by the way, was a sarcastic comment).
Regards
David
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Wed, 2005-10-05 08:17
Im not really a native born english but then, only english know the english language, the rest pretend to know the english language. It is for this reason that we have American english, Australian english, Irish english, etc, etc,.
I cant understand your definition of critical thinking.
So critical thinking is only for those who experience critical thinking. I leave it to you on whatever you want to say, my only wish is for you to experience critical thinking.
You can try Primavera P3 and in the event you reach the xanadu of critical thinking, please let us know in PP.
Cheers,
Charlie
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Submitted by Darrell ODea on Wed, 2005-10-05 08:11
What I, and others, were asking Charlie was “what is critical thinking”. The response he gave was far from clear, and was difficult for me to see how using P3 developed his definition of critical thinking. I then tried to help by giving a more considered view of what critical thinking might be.
However, Charlie’s response was again to pass an opinion (and a relatively damning one) about something that he has no experience of. As Charlie believes himself to be a critical thinker I merely cited some of the problems of shoddy thinking (definition: of poor quality). In my humble opinion, giving advice and opinions about something one knows little about results in poor quality advice and poor quality opinion.
I am sorry that you thought my comments were a bit strong, and I have no idea where political correctness comes into this. This thread has been characterised by robust opinion but very little factual supporting evidence.
Regards
David
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Submitted by Darrell ODea on Wed, 2005-10-05 07:55
I think ye are both 100% right in what yea are saying.
If nothing else, just to accencuate (whatever that means) the arguements.
In that whatever you think, be it critical or non-critical, you would be correct in thinking that, because that is right for you/ye in your thinking etc.
Am I making myself clear??
Best wishes,
Darrell
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Wed, 2005-10-05 04:34
You say that P3 develops critical thinking but then you say critical thinking could be anything. In trying to understand what you are saying about the benefits of using P3, does it mean, in your humble opinion that P3 develops anything, or something, depending on how the individual experiences it? Can’t that be said of virtually everything and, in my humble opinion, citing it as a reason for using a particular piece of project management software is somewhat vacuous?
Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.
A Definition:
Critical thinking is that mode of thinking - about any subject, content, or problem - in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them.
The Result:
A well cultivated critical thinker:
raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely;
gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
thinks open-mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognising and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.
Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcome our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.
Regards
David
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Submitted by Charleston-Jos… on Tue, 2005-10-04 14:00
I do plan to dig deeper whatever I can get hold from advice like you and others from PP. But ...
Now im very busy.
For the future, i do wanted to experience spider, also Asta if there is free download. Sorry i really dont have the money to feel and experience all the planning software englighten or reveal in PP. I rely on free download. 500 USD is a big money for me, 5,000 USD i can buy a car, so planning software is in the bottom of my budget.
Thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
Charlie
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Mon, 2005-09-26 04:32
I am suprised that, as you consider yourself to be one of the brainy people who can use P3 your critical thinking hasn’t led you to the Asta website (www.astadev.com) where you can request a fully funtioning evaluation copy of Powerproject - which includes, for dummies who can’t be bothered to look at its features, a nice ’virtual walkthrough at the beginning.
Apologioes for my harsh response but uninformed responses on a Monday morning I can do without!
If those of you with experience using P3, MSP and/or Powerproject (or any other software) would care to write a short review at the PMKB (you will need to register [free] first), the review engine would be able to provide a nice summary of the memberships opinions.
Ill stick with P3, P3 is for brainy people, it develop critical thinking, hallmark of true planners/planning engineer, IMHO.
MSP is also good if you are paid very high salary by the client for the rubbish your giving them. Why fight for P3 if Primavera will not increase your salary. No Point.
Powerproject, I dont know. I wish they have free download for testing purposes and also evaluation.
Have a nice day to all PP. Charlie
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Fri, 2005-09-23 16:36
You stated the situation rather eloquently. But twenty years is not that long ago. Open plan version 4 did the job, but Bill Gates developed windows for brain dead people, and we all had to follow suit. I doubt if ten percent of the members of pp can use dos or dbase. The point is that before computors existed, planning was part of project management, and people still know how to draw plans (barcharts) on the back of cigarette boxes. The program does not matter, can it do the job??????????????????????
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sun, 2005-08-21 12:33
I cant help but agree with you Andrew. Much of the debate since the beginning of this thread can be summed up as "I use P3, I like it and I dont care about any other software". Dont get me wrong - if someone is that happy with what theyve got then there is nothing wrong with that view as far as I am concerned. I think this thread started as a discussion about the pros and cons of three different brands of software. Im not sure that some of us have experience of actually using all three. Am I wrong?
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sat, 2005-08-20 20:43
Im staying neutral in this debate as I used both P3 and PP and like them both but a few posts have just reinforced my thoughts that P3 lovers are supporting it out of nothing but loyalty -
quote "have no problem with powerproject, however, what is it"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on P3 users, if youre going to make a valid comment at least know what your talking about - sorry Philip it was a quote from you but it nicely encapsulates the jist of a few others.
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Submitted by Daya Sugunasingha on Fri, 2005-08-19 20:36
The best software for you is the software that you are most familiar with. This is because you know how it works, its strengths and weaknesses and you work around it to output the required result.
The best software for the project is the software that does the job best for that project but producing all that is required of it. This is because some software packages are better at doing some things better then others are. Tools are not universally applicable to all tasks, i.e. use a hammer to drive a nail and a screwdriver to screw in a screw, even though you could use the hammer.
Regards
Daya
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Submitted by Alexandre Faul… on Fri, 2005-08-19 16:52
Why dont you use XML format to exchange files between PM apps?
P3 is too old a software to know about it, and Microsoft has killed MPX format long ago.
PP8, MS Project and Sciforma Project Scheduler 8.5 easily exchange schedule files using XML.
Have you ever tried reading a multi-sheet Lotus 123 file with Excel? This so-called standard spreadsheet application simply does not read multi-sheet files.
All the best
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Fri, 2005-08-19 16:01
Have no problem with power project, however, what is it? If it is anything like MSP, let it ride. The point is that in the accounting discipline or data management, programs talk to each other. Why do we have this major problem in planning, where it becomes a crusade to switch from one software to another, surely if you buy a pint of milk, from different dairies it is milk, despite the fact they treat their milk in different ways.
Whether you have excel, lotus or any of the spreadsheets, you can view files written in whatever, however, in planning the software companies rule. The question is are they not capable of competing on the same platform, in other words, are we to be bound to some particular software, despite our own prefences.
This seems to be getting a bit heated (and all from the P3 side I think).
A question for Philip and Bill. If this has been covered before - I apologise - Generally speaking, what are the aspects of Powerproject/Teamplan (v7 or v8) that you dont like.
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Wed, 2005-08-17 16:06
My evening at home. I agree this is a good discussion, and maybe should be changed to what does the industry require, and not bull versus the real thing. The challenge is there, and I have been laying the gauntlet down for a while, challenge P3 and they have to respond, it is like lotus, you can still find lotus help when you work with excel.
Inappropiate text deleted by moderator.
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Mon, 2005-08-15 07:03
This probably should go in another section but as it seems we have a lively debate here Ill put it here!
P3 in my opinion was definitely more reliable than PowerProject - However, I do not see anyone in the P3 camp now questioning the reliability of P3e/c or even prepared to talk about its faults.
NO software company, have ever switched from from one operating system to another and not had problems - Microsoft themselves even cant do it on thier own operating systems!. The product comes out, bugs are found and the usual patches, hotfixes, updates and service packs follow. Unless Primavera has done the seemingly impossible and certainly a world first -produced a new and bug free software package- then Im sure there are issues with P3e/c which no one in the P3 camp seems willing to own up to.
This does give the impression of P3 followers seeing only what they want, blindly following the marketing hype, thier god can do no wrong!
P3 and PowerProject are both extremely good pieces of software. MSP has its uses. If each do what you need them to do then all are sufficient for your purpose, even MSP! You might get the impression I dont rate MSP and youd be right, but as a product for the mass market it does what it does at a reasonable price and you cane expect it to compete with the specialist software.
But if we must debate which is best, can we have a reality check, P3 users take thier heads out of the sand, both sides actually think about how many of all those wonderfull must have functions they actually use from day to day and come to a more considered conclusion than one based on blind loyalty.
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Mon, 2005-08-15 05:33
Dear All, (Bill and Philip and Alex in particular)
I can’t recall what I must have said in the final paragraph of my posting such that it was deleted – I do try not to be offensive.
Believe me… I am not disputing anything that has been said in favour of P3 et al, or even MSP, all I was asking is has anyone got any independent data on this discussion to back up the claims that are being made?
As for ‘industry standard’, I don’t think I suggested that the UK (or the US or anywhere else for that matter) was the arbiter. All I was trying to say is that some software is more prevalent in some countries than others. I am sure I have said it before but I don’t think software should be an issue; it’s the planning, programming and communication that are important.
There was a slight problem with the original ‘sign-in survey’ in that it did not feature some software. Gary wrote about that in his first posting on the Forum (see here).
My suggestion is if the PP admin can have result analysis from the voting page for best planning software in terms of their functionality. We can then see comparison between MSP P3 and Powerproject. Of course no of people fill in the survey will be different but at least we will have an indicator the comparison between these softwares.
Cheers
Alex
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Sun, 2005-08-14 16:21
Unfortunately, the UK does not set the industry standard, and furthermore, I and not bound to one country, as I have worked in multiple countries, and so have Bill Guthrie. If you look at the majority of jobs in the UK they are rail related, or as it is normally called by pundits, permanent way. In South Africa we can fit fit England into the Kruger National Park, and it is a nature reserve. The days of the BS standards are gone, these days there are things lik ISO. Unfortunately for you 70% of the serious planners use P3 and are happy with it, and the answers it gives, we might not be happy with the backup from Primevera bur the software in general i OK. Give us something simular, with improvements, and we will be happier
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Submitted by David Bordoli on Wed, 2005-08-10 07:20
I have been on holiday and am now wading through my emails and PP postings.
I love this debate, even though I am not sure if it ever goes anywhere or even changes anyone’s minds about the ‘best’ software.
I was interested in a comment Philip made (03 August)
”P3 is the industry standard”
and Bill’s comment (09 August)
”Time and Time again since 1986, P3 has proved to be the best support tool for Construciton Planning” .
Despite those who think I am an advocate for a particular software (I regularly use P3, Powerproject and MSP) I try to remain objective. Previously I have made reference to independent research data on the popularity and functionality of various software. Do you, Philip and Bill, have any data to support your views or are they a reflection of your preference. I think also that there are some geographical biases here too with Philip being I Africa, Bill in the Americas and Daya in Europe – I am thinking maybe that what is the ‘industry standard’ in the US might not be the ‘industry standard’ in the UK.
[Passage deleted by Moderator.]
Best regards
David
ps. As usual apologies if this message offends anyone.
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Submitted by Darrell ODea on Tue, 2005-08-09 06:40
P3 is consistint at the very least & reliability is taken for granted. And out performs most other Planning or PM tools. The initial cost may seem preclusive, but long term,
P3 dont need or seem to change much.
Much of the competition are still trying to catch up with P3. In my humble opinion, have been spending the last 3 to 5 years trying to re-engineer their own software to suit, and have not quite hit the nail on the head. Thus revision on revision on revision add nausium. This is of course only my opinion.
Darrell
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Submitted by Vladimir Liberzon on Tue, 2005-08-09 00:50
you are right about the problems of participating in PP discussions for those who produce PM software. Even when they write about the approaches people may think that they are trying to promote the software. I am afraid that this problem is a communication barrier that restricts both parties.
I can understand why Primavera do not want to answer every questions in PP in related to P3 products. If they do, we will have the impression of they are try to selling their product and being baise. But, I do noticed that Primavera do have people constantly looking at this forum to look for product development and improvement. Like UNDO, Past Period Performance, Stack Histogram ... these are functions that we PPers been asking for and which they delivered (or at least under their latest version development).
It is difficult for a person selling the software and at the same time to promote the software in a forum like this.
Everyone will question whether there is a conflict of interest. At least I questioned several times, in related to "OPEN PLAN" and "SPIDER PROJECT"
Philip - in relate to you posting where software is only a tool. I strongly agree that, the person driving the tool is more important than the tools itself. But if you put a F1 race driver in a 1970s family car, he/she can only do limited things with that car. Therefore, sometime we do need the right tools for the right job. MSP - to me is a family car where P3 is more like a F1.
Cheers
Alex
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Sun, 2005-08-07 15:31
It is sad and perhaps a little arrogant for a software company not to care about its users, but I suspect that they have done their homework and the necessary market research and have come to the conclusion that more of their users want the graphic interface rather the old tabular interface.
Regards
Daya
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Fri, 2005-08-05 16:37
The problem I have here is the imcopatability of software products. P3 is the industry standard, and as such any product, that is launched or sold, should be able to interact, or be converted to the same format. If your are pepsi, and your are trying to steal market share from coca cola, you go out and find out what everybody likes about coke. If you are Excel you make sure you can open any file format. The problem here seems to be marketing niches, ie cheap vs expensive, or can it do the job, what does the client want. Open plan has not been mentioned, but I believe they have a good product, however, they also seem to have their niche. It seems the software industry has a problem, they are giving what they seem to think what we need, rather than asking the users.
Regards
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Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Sun, 2005-07-31 14:24
P3 is very reliable, powerfull but expensive and not the most user friendly software out there. Comparatively long drawn out process to put the info in but will tell you everything you ever needed to know once the infos there. I would at this moment in time still consider P3 to be the best software available but havent tried out the very lastest versions.
PowerProject is very easy to use, cheap when compared to P3 but has reliability issues. (especially when calculating the money side of things) Putting info in is easy and quick and in version 8 they did improve its reporting capabilities greatly. Not sure what version 9 is going to bring later this year but if they have solved the reliability issues and improved the reporting further its then got to be considered as a real alternative to P3. Its biggest draw back is not being able to import info from Excel. (you can export to Excel)This might change in version 9 (hopefully) as they are including the current add on .xml file import facility for MSP data transfer - but whether you will be able to use it to import spreadsheet data into an existing programmes I dont know.
MSP 2003, has improved over previous versions and I might choose it for programming a small project but thats about it. Actually, on second thoughts, I wouldnt even use it for that.
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Sat, 2005-07-30 14:23
It is simple, as real planners, P3 gives the right answers, and why do we have to switch to mickey mouse bullskit, even if we know the tools we are uding is correct. I do not personally have a share in P3, however it has the capability to do the job, and at the end of the day pay my salary. Further to this, I have given up on planning programs at the end of the job, and stil run them in the old style, brute force and temperament
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Submitted by Daya Sugunasingha on Fri, 2005-07-29 16:31
I have not used the latest Open Plan or P3ec and can only think that they must have done their market research before abandoning the DOS versions.
To a question for help on choosing soft ware I did give Tim Readman the following personal view from my experience in the past.
I think there is no indication that they will be reverting back to it unless market trends reverse.
This is what I sad to him.
"I hope you make the correct choice for your company.
I am an advocate of Powerproject as they have consistently listened to the wishes and needs of the man on the work face "THE PLANNER" and improved and developed it accordingly. But you have to examine both or all other software available and chose the one that delivers the end produce you require.
I have been in the field of construction planning since the days before computers were in use for planning in the UK and I have, in the past, worked with Darrell O’Dea, Garry France and David Bordoli who have made comments on this topic.
I remember the very shaky start of the introduction of the first software packages.
I was an Activities Organiser for the CIOB South London Committee going back a good few years now, when I organised a demonstration of a software for planning (I do not remember it’s name)for the CIOB members. The evening was not a success because the computers or the software kept crashing.
The story now is very different. There are so many good packages on the market that it is a problem find the one best suited for your specific end product requirements.
During the many years in the Planning Discipline I have used many planning software packages including, P3, Suretrak, Open Plan, Powerproject and others not now heard of much.
I loved the way you could manipulate the programme data via the use of their data bases in Open Plan and P3. But and this is a big "But" I did not like the fact that you had to work on the data in the dark. By this I mean that you did not see the effect of the build up or changes as you worked. You were in fact working the mechanics to achieve the end result i.e. the Bar Chart.
In around 1984 Microplanner planning software had a version for the DOS computers and one for MAC. They were two different ways of working. The DOS way working in the Engine Room the MAC way was making use of icons and graphics. The problem was that most of the industries in this country were into using the IBM processor and therefore it did not catch on.
The advent of MS Windows opened this method of using computers and made the use of software within the grasp of every one as the old saying goes "a picture is worth more then a 1000 words". The problem in the beginning was that the computers were not able to handle the larger up front memory for the graphics. But not any more as computer power is more then capable and improving by the day.
In Powerproject you use the screen to draw the bars and logic links, or not if did not wish to. And it uses "drag and drop" to add calendars, resources, Codes, etc, etc on to the bars. It is all-graphical and yet it can do all the you could do with the "other way of working" and it does it better. I am not going to attempt list the vast capability and specification of Powerproject, but I would urge you to get yourself a demonstration copy and experience it’s power and ease of use. "
Philip,
I would like to know how you would compare Powerproject V8 with the new Open Plan and New P3e.
Regards
Daya
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Submitted by Philip Jonker on Fri, 2005-07-29 11:31
The old Open Plan v4 (Dos) was probably better, as you had more access to the database files, including codes,etc. But since they killed that one of, P3 has probably been the best replacement since then. However, with the advent of the so-called P3e and P3ec, and the latest one I saw two days ago, version P4, which is a for of P3e/ec, They are going in the wrong direction. I think the problem is a lack of marketing and as such input from users (in this case happy users).
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Clive
I am in complete agreement!
This thread has lost its way and is long past it’s respond by date – I suggest (being the starter of the thread) that the moderators now close it for further discussion.
There must be an opportunity to discuss the merits of software after all they are the tools we use… in the same way that joiners will discuss the merits of Spear & Jackson –v- Stanley. What I had hoped for when starting this thread was some critical discussion and factual stuff rather than “X is best ‘cos I always use it, so there”. I am afraid this thread has generated a lot of heat but no light.
Whilst in general I welcome expression of opinion, even those who resort to uniformed comment must realise worthlessness of such statements and, more importantly, the potential dangers that can cause in an information led society. And that has nothing to do with one’s native language or culture!
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread, this is my last posting on the subject!
Regards
David
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
David
Sometime it is very difficult to teach a old dog with new tricks. And some of us (planner) are very attached to particular software that you have to understand. That will cause a blind eyes to everything else, however it is very hard for the person / us to admit.
And sometime people claim they know the software because they went to a conference or see the demo or play around the software for couple of hrs and found that it is not exactly the same as what they use to. Then they will come to a conclusion that the software is not good.
During your discussion I can see some of it already. And I had the similar experience with some of the PPs in the forum.
What we have to do is to understand and respect their way of thinking. And agree to disagree.
Good Luck and keep planning
Cheers
Alex
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
David,
Who/whom are these "Critical Tinkers" you speak of?
Are they the Gods of Criticality? (whatever dat means).
Anyway, all any software does is "Critical Path or Chain Analysis". Does "Thinking" come into it, on the part of the software package?
Perhaps another question for another day.
And P3 in my opinion is still the best thus far.
Of course of MSP & PP/TP do somethink different, then being the fickle person that I am, will soon change my mind.
All the best,
Darrell.
ps. No disrespect to God or Gods intended, to be sure, to be sure.
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Charlie… you are wearing me down…
As I have stated endlessly I do not think there is such thing as the ‘best’ software. There are too many factors to consider. I appreciate there may be a favourite software – but I think that is more to do with familiarity with the product than anything else.
For the record, I regularly use Primavera, MS Project and Powerproject. The primary reason for which one I chose is what software was the original programme I am working on produced in and does my client have any preferences.
Unfortunately, even though I use P3 I have not yet reached the ‘xanadu of critical thinking’. I guess that must be because when I use MSP and Powerproject my senses get dulled.
I was not intending to criticise you use of the English language (after all it is the only one I know) but to question your view of critical thinking and why you think only P3 can reach the parts that other software cannot. Also, the definition I gave was not mine, as I said, but that of ‘The Critical Thinking Community’ whom I assume have put a lot of critical thought into their definition.
I also like your implied assumption that I am not a critical thinker, what ever one of those is (that, by the way, was a sarcastic comment).
Regards
David
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hello David,
Im not really a native born english but then, only english know the english language, the rest pretend to know the english language. It is for this reason that we have American english, Australian english, Irish english, etc, etc,.
I cant understand your definition of critical thinking.
So critical thinking is only for those who experience critical thinking. I leave it to you on whatever you want to say, my only wish is for you to experience critical thinking.
You can try Primavera P3 and in the event you reach the xanadu of critical thinking, please let us know in PP.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Still think P3 rules (presently), no contest.
D.
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Darrell
What I, and others, were asking Charlie was “what is critical thinking”. The response he gave was far from clear, and was difficult for me to see how using P3 developed his definition of critical thinking. I then tried to help by giving a more considered view of what critical thinking might be.
However, Charlie’s response was again to pass an opinion (and a relatively damning one) about something that he has no experience of. As Charlie believes himself to be a critical thinker I merely cited some of the problems of shoddy thinking (definition: of poor quality). In my humble opinion, giving advice and opinions about something one knows little about results in poor quality advice and poor quality opinion.
I am sorry that you thought my comments were a bit strong, and I have no idea where political correctness comes into this. This thread has been characterised by robust opinion but very little factual supporting evidence.
Regards
David
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
David,
That is a bit strong, in my view.
Perhaps this could be thought in another way.
Maybe what you might define as "Shoddy Thinking" (Whateverdatis), is another persons (political correctness), Critical Thinking.
It twould b grate 4 all f we were all the same & tought da same way, woodint it??
Respect,
Darrell
ps. I am none to impressed with PP/TP developments, and I have used it since 1988 (When it was good, in my opinion).
pps. liked ure tinker response, well tought out.
ppps. I 4 one, would not dare to advise anyone, am not qualified to give advise.
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Darell…
May I reply on Charlie’s behalf?
A Critical Tinker is:
A traveling mender of metal household utensils who moans a lot.
A Logical Tinker is:
A traveling mender of metal household utensils who is capable of reasoning in a clear and consistent manner.
All clear now?
Regards
David
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Charlie
I am amazed that you are so forthright in your view of Powerporoject when, by your own admission, you have never used it!
One of the problems with thinking (see my previous post) is:
"Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life.
I propose we try to advise and comment on the things we know about, and not pass judgement on the things we are ignorant of.
Regards
David
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
So Charlie,
What is the dirrerence between a "Critical Tinker" & a "Logical Tinker"?
All the best,
Darrell
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Darell,
Crystal
Clear as a crystal ball.
MSP, P3, Powerproject develop critical thinking.
The only difference is the degree of development...
and P3 leads to advance stage in the development of critical thinking.
MSP very minimal approaching to zero, powerproject - maybe a little bit higher than MSP but not in the class of P3.
Cheers
Charlie
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Charlie & Clive,
I think ye are both 100% right in what yea are saying.
If nothing else, just to accencuate (whatever that means) the arguements.
In that whatever you think, be it critical or non-critical, you would be correct in thinking that, because that is right for you/ye in your thinking etc.
Am I making myself clear??
Best wishes,
Darrell
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Charlie (and Clive)
I think I am missing something here?
You say that P3 develops critical thinking but then you say critical thinking could be anything. In trying to understand what you are saying about the benefits of using P3, does it mean, in your humble opinion that P3 develops anything, or something, depending on how the individual experiences it? Can’t that be said of virtually everything and, in my humble opinion, citing it as a reason for using a particular piece of project management software is somewhat vacuous?
However, may I refer you to http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/definingCT.shtml for a more considered definition of critical thinking. Here is an extract:
The Problem:
Everyone thinks; it is our nature to do so. But much of our thinking, left to itself, is biased, distorted, partial, uninformed or down-right prejudiced. Yet the quality of our life and that of what we produce, make, or build depends precisely on the quality of our thought. Shoddy thinking is costly, both in money and in quality of life. Excellence in thought, however, must be systematically cultivated.
A Definition:
Critical thinking is that mode of thinking - about any subject, content, or problem - in which the thinker improves the quality of his or her thinking by skillfully taking charge of the structures inherent in thinking and imposing intellectual standards upon them.
The Result:
A well cultivated critical thinker:
raises vital questions and problems, formulating them clearly and precisely;
gathers and assesses relevant information, using abstract ideas to interpret it effectively comes to well-reasoned conclusions and solutions, testing them against relevant criteria and standards;
thinks open-mindedly within alternative systems of thought, recognising and assessing, as need be, their assumptions, implications, and practical consequences; and
communicates effectively with others in figuring out solutions to complex problems.
Critical thinking is, in short, self-directed, self-disciplined, self-monitored, and self-corrective thinking. It presupposes assent to rigorous standards of excellence and mindful command of their use. It entails effective communication and problem solving abilities and a commitment to overcome our native egocentrism and sociocentrism.
Regards
David
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Clive,
It could be anything depends on How an individual experience it.
Regards,
Charlie
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi David,
Thanks for the advise.
I do plan to dig deeper whatever I can get hold from advice like you and others from PP. But ...
Now im very busy.
For the future, i do wanted to experience spider, also Asta if there is free download. Sorry i really dont have the money to feel and experience all the planning software englighten or reveal in PP. I rely on free download. 500 USD is a big money for me, 5,000 USD i can buy a car, so planning software is in the bottom of my budget.
Thanks for the advice.
Cheers,
Charlie
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Charlie...
I am suprised that, as you consider yourself to be one of the brainy people who can use P3 your critical thinking hasn’t led you to the Asta website (www.astadev.com) where you can request a fully funtioning evaluation copy of Powerproject - which includes, for dummies who can’t be bothered to look at its features, a nice ’virtual walkthrough at the beginning.
Apologioes for my harsh response but uninformed responses on a Monday morning I can do without!
Regards
David
Member for
20 years 1 monthRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
If those of you with experience using P3, MSP and/or Powerproject (or any other software) would care to write a short review at the PMKB (you will need to register [free] first), the review engine would be able to provide a nice summary of the memberships opinions.
Stacy
Participate in the Project Management Knowledge Base!
Member for
20 years 3 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hello,
Ill stick with P3, P3 is for brainy people, it develop critical thinking, hallmark of true planners/planning engineer, IMHO.
MSP is also good if you are paid very high salary by the client for the rubbish your giving them. Why fight for P3 if Primavera will not increase your salary. No Point.
Powerproject, I dont know. I wish they have free download for testing purposes and also evaluation.
Have a nice day to all PP. Charlie
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Clive,
You stated the situation rather eloquently. But twenty years is not that long ago. Open plan version 4 did the job, but Bill Gates developed windows for brain dead people, and we all had to follow suit. I doubt if ten percent of the members of pp can use dos or dbase. The point is that before computors existed, planning was part of project management, and people still know how to draw plans (barcharts) on the back of cigarette boxes. The program does not matter, can it do the job??????????????????????
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Ken,
Thankyou - I have actually used all 3 at one time or another. I have not used the lastest P3e/c however.
Member for
23 years 4 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
I cant help but agree with you Andrew. Much of the debate since the beginning of this thread can be summed up as "I use P3, I like it and I dont care about any other software". Dont get me wrong - if someone is that happy with what theyve got then there is nothing wrong with that view as far as I am concerned. I think this thread started as a discussion about the pros and cons of three different brands of software. Im not sure that some of us have experience of actually using all three. Am I wrong?
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi all,
Im staying neutral in this debate as I used both P3 and PP and like them both but a few posts have just reinforced my thoughts that P3 lovers are supporting it out of nothing but loyalty -
quote "have no problem with powerproject, however, what is it"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on P3 users, if youre going to make a valid comment at least know what your talking about - sorry Philip it was a quote from you but it nicely encapsulates the jist of a few others.
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Guys
The best software for you is the software that you are most familiar with. This is because you know how it works, its strengths and weaknesses and you work around it to output the required result.
The best software for the project is the software that does the job best for that project but producing all that is required of it. This is because some software packages are better at doing some things better then others are. Tools are not universally applicable to all tasks, i.e. use a hammer to drive a nail and a screwdriver to screw in a screw, even though you could use the hammer.
Regards
Daya
Member for
22 years 9 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Philip,
Why dont you use XML format to exchange files between PM apps?
P3 is too old a software to know about it, and Microsoft has killed MPX format long ago.
PP8, MS Project and Sciforma Project Scheduler 8.5 easily exchange schedule files using XML.
Have you ever tried reading a multi-sheet Lotus 123 file with Excel? This so-called standard spreadsheet application simply does not read multi-sheet files.
All the best
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Ken,
Have no problem with power project, however, what is it? If it is anything like MSP, let it ride. The point is that in the accounting discipline or data management, programs talk to each other. Why do we have this major problem in planning, where it becomes a crusade to switch from one software to another, surely if you buy a pint of milk, from different dairies it is milk, despite the fact they treat their milk in different ways.
Whether you have excel, lotus or any of the spreadsheets, you can view files written in whatever, however, in planning the software companies rule. The question is are they not capable of competing on the same platform, in other words, are we to be bound to some particular software, despite our own prefences.
Regards
Member for
23 years 4 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hello All,
This seems to be getting a bit heated (and all from the P3 side I think).
A question for Philip and Bill. If this has been covered before - I apologise - Generally speaking, what are the aspects of Powerproject/Teamplan (v7 or v8) that you dont like.
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi guys,
My evening at home. I agree this is a good discussion, and maybe should be changed to what does the industry require, and not bull versus the real thing. The challenge is there, and I have been laying the gauntlet down for a while, challenge P3 and they have to respond, it is like lotus, you can still find lotus help when you work with excel.
Inappropiate text deleted by moderator.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
All,
This probably should go in another section but as it seems we have a lively debate here Ill put it here!
P3 in my opinion was definitely more reliable than PowerProject - However, I do not see anyone in the P3 camp now questioning the reliability of P3e/c or even prepared to talk about its faults.
NO software company, have ever switched from from one operating system to another and not had problems - Microsoft themselves even cant do it on thier own operating systems!. The product comes out, bugs are found and the usual patches, hotfixes, updates and service packs follow. Unless Primavera has done the seemingly impossible and certainly a world first -produced a new and bug free software package- then Im sure there are issues with P3e/c which no one in the P3 camp seems willing to own up to.
This does give the impression of P3 followers seeing only what they want, blindly following the marketing hype, thier god can do no wrong!
P3 and PowerProject are both extremely good pieces of software. MSP has its uses. If each do what you need them to do then all are sufficient for your purpose, even MSP! You might get the impression I dont rate MSP and youd be right, but as a product for the mass market it does what it does at a reasonable price and you cane expect it to compete with the specialist software.
But if we must debate which is best, can we have a reality check, P3 users take thier heads out of the sand, both sides actually think about how many of all those wonderfull must have functions they actually use from day to day and come to a more considered conclusion than one based on blind loyalty.
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Dear All, (Bill and Philip and Alex in particular)
I can’t recall what I must have said in the final paragraph of my posting such that it was deleted – I do try not to be offensive.
Believe me… I am not disputing anything that has been said in favour of P3 et al, or even MSP, all I was asking is has anyone got any independent data on this discussion to back up the claims that are being made?
As for ‘industry standard’, I don’t think I suggested that the UK (or the US or anywhere else for that matter) was the arbiter. All I was trying to say is that some software is more prevalent in some countries than others. I am sure I have said it before but I don’t think software should be an issue; it’s the planning, programming and communication that are important.
There was a slight problem with the original ‘sign-in survey’ in that it did not feature some software. Gary wrote about that in his first posting on the Forum (see here).
Regards
David
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
BTW
if you look at the no of survey taken P3 is over 100 and MSP is less than 20 and Powerproject is also around 20
What does it suggest ...
Well I dont want to jump into conclusion but I guess it does tell a story
Alex
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Dear All
My suggestion is if the PP admin can have result analysis from the voting page for best planning software in terms of their functionality. We can then see comparison between MSP P3 and Powerproject. Of course no of people fill in the survey will be different but at least we will have an indicator the comparison between these softwares.
Cheers
Alex
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi David,
Unfortunately, the UK does not set the industry standard, and furthermore, I and not bound to one country, as I have worked in multiple countries, and so have Bill Guthrie. If you look at the majority of jobs in the UK they are rail related, or as it is normally called by pundits, permanent way. In South Africa we can fit fit England into the Kruger National Park, and it is a nature reserve. The days of the BS standards are gone, these days there are things lik ISO. Unfortunately for you 70% of the serious planners use P3 and are happy with it, and the answers it gives, we might not be happy with the backup from Primevera bur the software in general i OK. Give us something simular, with improvements, and we will be happier
Member for
23 years 6 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi all
I have been on holiday and am now wading through my emails and PP postings.
I love this debate, even though I am not sure if it ever goes anywhere or even changes anyone’s minds about the ‘best’ software.
I was interested in a comment Philip made (03 August)
”P3 is the industry standard”
and Bill’s comment (09 August)
”Time and Time again since 1986, P3 has proved to be the best support tool for Construciton Planning” .
Despite those who think I am an advocate for a particular software (I regularly use P3, Powerproject and MSP) I try to remain objective. Previously I have made reference to independent research data on the popularity and functionality of various software. Do you, Philip and Bill, have any data to support your views or are they a reflection of your preference. I think also that there are some geographical biases here too with Philip being I Africa, Bill in the Americas and Daya in Europe – I am thinking maybe that what is the ‘industry standard’ in the US might not be the ‘industry standard’ in the UK.
[Passage deleted by Moderator.]
Best regards
David
ps. As usual apologies if this message offends anyone.
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Bill,
Well said. Couldnt agree more.
P3 is consistint at the very least & reliability is taken for granted. And out performs most other Planning or PM tools. The initial cost may seem preclusive, but long term,
P3 dont need or seem to change much.
Much of the competition are still trying to catch up with P3. In my humble opinion, have been spending the last 3 to 5 years trying to re-engineer their own software to suit, and have not quite hit the nail on the head. Thus revision on revision on revision add nausium. This is of course only my opinion.
Darrell
Member for
24 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Alex,
you are right about the problems of participating in PP discussions for those who produce PM software. Even when they write about the approaches people may think that they are trying to promote the software. I am afraid that this problem is a communication barrier that restricts both parties.
Regards,
Vladimir
Member for
22 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Dear All,
I can understand why Primavera do not want to answer every questions in PP in related to P3 products. If they do, we will have the impression of they are try to selling their product and being baise. But, I do noticed that Primavera do have people constantly looking at this forum to look for product development and improvement. Like UNDO, Past Period Performance, Stack Histogram ... these are functions that we PPers been asking for and which they delivered (or at least under their latest version development).
It is difficult for a person selling the software and at the same time to promote the software in a forum like this.
Everyone will question whether there is a conflict of interest. At least I questioned several times, in related to "OPEN PLAN" and "SPIDER PROJECT"
Philip - in relate to you posting where software is only a tool. I strongly agree that, the person driving the tool is more important than the tools itself. But if you put a F1 race driver in a 1970s family car, he/she can only do limited things with that car. Therefore, sometime we do need the right tools for the right job. MSP - to me is a family car where P3 is more like a F1.
Cheers
Alex
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Thanks Daya for empathising the point
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi
It is sad and perhaps a little arrogant for a software company not to care about its users, but I suspect that they have done their homework and the necessary market research and have come to the conclusion that more of their users want the graphic interface rather the old tabular interface.
Regards
Daya
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi
Primavera is a main partner in this discussion, but they seem to deny that the pp site exists and do not give a hoot about their users
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Guys
Has anyone asked Primavera why they are going down the route of the the graphic icon set up by the newer software?
Daya
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Guys,
The problem I have here is the imcopatability of software products. P3 is the industry standard, and as such any product, that is launched or sold, should be able to interact, or be converted to the same format. If your are pepsi, and your are trying to steal market share from coca cola, you go out and find out what everybody likes about coke. If you are Excel you make sure you can open any file format. The problem here seems to be marketing niches, ie cheap vs expensive, or can it do the job, what does the client want. Open plan has not been mentioned, but I believe they have a good product, however, they also seem to have their niche. It seems the software industry has a problem, they are giving what they seem to think what we need, rather than asking the users.
Regards
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Daya,
If youre buying today Id go for P3, if it can wait for abit then Id see what PowerProject v9 has to offer.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Daya,
Havent had my hands on P3e or P3ec so cant comment on what theyre like, although I do know they are still alot more money than PowerProject.
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Andrew
Thank you.
I was given to understand that P3 was being phased out and to be replaced with P3e, which seems to be following the graphics lead.
Regards
Daya
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Philip
But you said said that it (any planning software?) was a tool and as such no tool can be the right tool for every situation. Can it?Regards
Daya
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
All,
P3 is very reliable, powerfull but expensive and not the most user friendly software out there. Comparatively long drawn out process to put the info in but will tell you everything you ever needed to know once the infos there. I would at this moment in time still consider P3 to be the best software available but havent tried out the very lastest versions.
PowerProject is very easy to use, cheap when compared to P3 but has reliability issues. (especially when calculating the money side of things) Putting info in is easy and quick and in version 8 they did improve its reporting capabilities greatly. Not sure what version 9 is going to bring later this year but if they have solved the reliability issues and improved the reporting further its then got to be considered as a real alternative to P3. Its biggest draw back is not being able to import info from Excel. (you can export to Excel)This might change in version 9 (hopefully) as they are including the current add on .xml file import facility for MSP data transfer - but whether you will be able to use it to import spreadsheet data into an existing programmes I dont know.
MSP 2003, has improved over previous versions and I might choose it for programming a small project but thats about it. Actually, on second thoughts, I wouldnt even use it for that.
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Daya,
It is simple, as real planners, P3 gives the right answers, and why do we have to switch to mickey mouse bullskit, even if we know the tools we are uding is correct. I do not personally have a share in P3, however it has the capability to do the job, and at the end of the day pay my salary. Further to this, I have given up on planning programs at the end of the job, and stil run them in the old style, brute force and temperament
Member for
23 years 8 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Dear Bill/ Philip
I have not used the latest Open Plan or P3ec and can only think that they must have done their market research before abandoning the DOS versions.
To a question for help on choosing soft ware I did give Tim Readman the following personal view from my experience in the past.
I think there is no indication that they will be reverting back to it unless market trends reverse.
This is what I sad to him.
"I hope you make the correct choice for your company.
I am an advocate of Powerproject as they have consistently listened to the wishes and needs of the man on the work face "THE PLANNER" and improved and developed it accordingly. But you have to examine both or all other software available and chose the one that delivers the end produce you require.
I have been in the field of construction planning since the days before computers were in use for planning in the UK and I have, in the past, worked with Darrell O’Dea, Garry France and David Bordoli who have made comments on this topic.
I remember the very shaky start of the introduction of the first software packages.
I was an Activities Organiser for the CIOB South London Committee going back a good few years now, when I organised a demonstration of a software for planning (I do not remember it’s name)for the CIOB members. The evening was not a success because the computers or the software kept crashing.
The story now is very different. There are so many good packages on the market that it is a problem find the one best suited for your specific end product requirements.
During the many years in the Planning Discipline I have used many planning software packages including, P3, Suretrak, Open Plan, Powerproject and others not now heard of much.
I loved the way you could manipulate the programme data via the use of their data bases in Open Plan and P3. But and this is a big "But" I did not like the fact that you had to work on the data in the dark. By this I mean that you did not see the effect of the build up or changes as you worked. You were in fact working the mechanics to achieve the end result i.e. the Bar Chart.
In around 1984 Microplanner planning software had a version for the DOS computers and one for MAC. They were two different ways of working. The DOS way working in the Engine Room the MAC way was making use of icons and graphics. The problem was that most of the industries in this country were into using the IBM processor and therefore it did not catch on.
The advent of MS Windows opened this method of using computers and made the use of software within the grasp of every one as the old saying goes "a picture is worth more then a 1000 words". The problem in the beginning was that the computers were not able to handle the larger up front memory for the graphics. But not any more as computer power is more then capable and improving by the day.
In Powerproject you use the screen to draw the bars and logic links, or not if did not wish to. And it uses "drag and drop" to add calendars, resources, Codes, etc, etc on to the bars. It is all-graphical and yet it can do all the you could do with the "other way of working" and it does it better. I am not going to attempt list the vast capability and specification of Powerproject, but I would urge you to get yourself a demonstration copy and experience it’s power and ease of use. "
Philip,
I would like to know how you would compare Powerproject V8 with the new Open Plan and New P3e.
Regards
Daya
Member for
20 years 11 monthsRE: MSP -v- P3 -v- Powerproject
Hi Bill,
The old Open Plan v4 (Dos) was probably better, as you had more access to the database files, including codes,etc. But since they killed that one of, P3 has probably been the best replacement since then. However, with the advent of the so-called P3e and P3ec, and the latest one I saw two days ago, version P4, which is a for of P3e/ec, They are going in the wrong direction. I think the problem is a lack of marketing and as such input from users (in this case happy users).
Regards
Philip