Has anyone else noticed the similarity in invective / lack of command of the English language between Charlie / Joseph from the Phillipines and the new Dave Anderson from the Vatican?
Member for
19 years 2 months
Member for19 years2 months
Submitted by ashraf alawady on Tue, 2007-09-04 09:36
Thanks for your kind support which i was realy need it.
Hi, Dave
as brothers and professionals with different levels of education , languge and experiances .im sharing in this respective forum since more than one year and i never expected that some weakness in my english languge will lead to receive such tough answer .
I hope if we can come back to our previous valuable discussion.
Member for
18 years 7 months
Member for18 years7 months
Submitted by Richard Spedding on Tue, 2007-09-04 09:34
Going back to your original post, and ignoring the furore in between.
In simple construction terms, under English law a contract is an offer to do work, and an acceptance of the offer and agreement to pay an agreed sum for that work. The agreement should be made without duress on either part.
Generally the amount of work is described on a drawing (or series of drawings), the required quality is described in a specification (or series of specifications) and the amount of payment is set out in a Bill of Quantities.
The precedence of contract documents is usually set out in the contract itself. However the default precedence is I believe first the drawings, second the specification and third the BoQ.
A variation or varied works (I make no differentiation between them, although I have seen arguments elsewhere that these are different) is a change to the work shown on the drawings or to the quality specified. This may be an addition or omission of either quantity or quality and will require an instruction by the client and a change in the amount of payment such change to be valued in accordance with the rules set out in the contract.
Trust this sheds some light on your problem.
Member for
21 years 5 months
Member for21 years5 months
Submitted by Chris Oggham on Tue, 2007-09-04 08:50
If you hadn’t taken Ashraf to task for a perceived lack of ability in using English, I would not have pointed out your own deficiencies in this area. There is no more malice in my action than there was in yours, but if you are upset, there is an English colloquialism that sums up the situation:
"If you can’t take it, don’t try and dish it out."
Regards
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 9 months
Member for18 years9 months
Submitted by Dieter Wambach on Tue, 2007-09-04 08:20
thank you for advice. In some items you are simply wrong:
This is an international forum with people form different countries, with different cultures, mother tongues, and religions discussing areas of a common issue: Planning.
As project-oriented people we all experienced that a certain minimum of tolerance and politeness is required to take a project to a succesful end. This we continue here. No need to beat the other, but to exchange opinions, knowledge and experience.
English: This is an international forum where we use English as a commonly understood vehicle.
Basic questions: Since there is no examination to allow admittance well have the complete scope of questions. This for me is much more helpful than a university discussion - its more practice.
Dont discourage young people to ask their questions here!
Salvete
Dieter
Member for
18 years 9 months
Member for18 years9 months
Submitted by Dieter Wambach on Tue, 2007-09-04 05:20
I completely agree with you; if people can’t ask for advice or seek answers to questions on this forum, what is the point of its existence? Quite often someone asking what appears, at first, to be a very basic question can trigger completely new trains of thought for people who believed themselves to be knowledgeable and experienced.
Hi Ashraf,
There is nothing much wrong with your English; you have always made yourself quite clear when you have asked for or given information. As we use the forum all of us will become better at what we do, simply because of the wealth of knowledge and experience available here. In the same way members who don’t have English as their first language will find their familiarity and expertise improving as they use both the language and the forum. I don’t know whether Dave was having a bad day, or whether he was making a subtle and rather obscure joke, as the post he made criticising yours is full of inaccuracies and poor English.
Hi Dave,
I don’t really think your criticism of Ashraf’s English is justified, considering the standard of your own. I have reproduced what you posted below:
Ashraf Alawady
Following things were noted down in your postings.
a)Your English spelling is very poor in all your postings which seems that you never bother about your English writings that what you have written. Please apply spell check before postings.
b)If you are in Contract Section, such mistakes are never acceptable in this Section. How do you work in such conditions in Contract and Claim Section, it is really questionable?
c) Last thing your questions are very preliminary on Contract.
What is Contract? What are variations?
This seems that you are learning here. Although it is not School for such basic questions so please try to avoid such basic question on the forum and find out solutions yourself rather than posting here and:
Better to do a contract management course.
I won’t bother telling you things like poor sentence construction, ending sentences with a preposition, instead I’ll rewrite it correctly.
Ashraf Alawady,
I have noted the following things in your postings.
a) Your English spelling is very poor, which gives an appearance of carelessness in the things you have written. Perhaps you should apply a spell check to your writing before making a post;
b) If you work in a Contracts Section, you should already understand that such mistakes are not acceptable. I seems questionable to me that you can work in such conditions;
c) Finally, your questions on contracts, “What are Contracts?” and “What are variations?” are very basic.
This appears that you are using the forum to learn, even though it is not a school to supply answers to such elementary questions. Please try to avoid raising such basic questions on the forum; find the solutions yourself rather raising such posts here, or better still, do a contract management course.
Having rewritten it correctly, I’ll just say that I disagree with it completely, the forum is for the exchange of information, there is nothing saying that it has to be at any particular level.
Finally since you are based in the Vatican, I’ll leave you with a couple of Biblical quotes;
For the purpose of the forum:
Proverbs 9:9
Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning
For your comments on the use of English
Luke 6:41
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Regards
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 9 months
Member for18 years9 months
Submitted by Dieter Wambach on Mon, 2007-09-03 03:58
After this encyclical (letter from the Pope, whose residence is in Vatican), may I ask you some questions:
1. I’m not a native English speaker, do you allow me asking questions or to reply?
2. In some areas of planning I am expert, in others a beginner, do you....
3. Do members need a PhD in PM before you allow them...
NO! We all started one day and that time we needed seniors’ support. After more than 30 years now in this business I absolutely don’t feel perfect and still have to learn from others. This is a forum of persons related to planning; so there will be between pre-mature and mature all kind of questions. That’s life!
Regards to all
Dieter
Member for
19 years 2 months
Member for19 years2 months
Submitted by ashraf alawady on Sun, 2007-09-02 23:30
Iwill do my best to improve my English spelling and is there any harm to learn from you and from the others.
if you feel that my questions are very preliminary on Contract ,you could give me your answer/openion to spread the benefits for me and for the others.
Is it only promise to do something or an agreement legally binding both parties(employer and the contractor).
The contractor binding him self to carry out a certain scope of works based od the contract documents(drawings , specifications, Bill of quantities,the condition of contract, letter of acceptance .......etc.
And the epmloyer binding him self to pay to the contractor as per the rates mentioned in the Bill of Quantities for the approved works done physically on the site.
the above is the summurization of many opinion and discussions i have recieved.
Member for
20 years 10 months
Member for20 years10 months
Submitted by Andrew Flowerdew on Thu, 2007-08-30 13:05
In simple terms a contract is a legally binding promise to do something. Normally between two parties where one party promises to do something and in return the other promises to pay for it.
Member for
18 years 3 months
Member for18 years3 months
Submitted by Pradeep Mendonca on Mon, 2007-08-27 10:23
Before you start a work you need a work related training or seniors to accompany you. If you didnt get appropriately trained, kick your superiors into ..
For such business related terms you can find many web-sites, e.g.
This page exists in arabian language as well. Another page Ill give you when Ill be at work again on Monday.
- Contract is the basis of your work. Without a good understanding you cannot start planning.
- Variation, your 100 Million of another thread. Who is responsible, has to pay for additional costs --> PMs work.
- Contract documents: During detail engineering maybe hundreds of documents have to be developped, but some count for progress only - and for payment. For my understanding, these are the contract documents.
Again: Ask your superiors to give you the chance to study.
Member for
18 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Its better to ask a question and be a fool for 5 minutes than not to ask and be a fool for life
Member for
19 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
can be detected by the admin from users IP address
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Nieman
Probably you are right.
Dieter
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Nieman,
Im glad someone else noticed that; I thought at first it was just my imagination but perhaps it isnt.
Regards
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Has anyone else noticed the similarity in invective / lack of command of the English language between Charlie / Joseph from the Phillipines and the new Dave Anderson from the Vatican?
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi,Dieter Wambach & Chris Oggham
Thanks for your kind support which i was realy need it.
Hi, Dave
as brothers and professionals with different levels of education , languge and experiances .im sharing in this respective forum since more than one year and i never expected that some weakness in my english languge will lead to receive such tough answer .
I hope if we can come back to our previous valuable discussion.
Member for
18 years 7 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf
Going back to your original post, and ignoring the furore in between.
In simple construction terms, under English law a contract is an offer to do work, and an acceptance of the offer and agreement to pay an agreed sum for that work. The agreement should be made without duress on either part.
Generally the amount of work is described on a drawing (or series of drawings), the required quality is described in a specification (or series of specifications) and the amount of payment is set out in a Bill of Quantities.
The precedence of contract documents is usually set out in the contract itself. However the default precedence is I believe first the drawings, second the specification and third the BoQ.
A variation or varied works (I make no differentiation between them, although I have seen arguments elsewhere that these are different) is a change to the work shown on the drawings or to the quality specified. This may be an addition or omission of either quantity or quality and will require an instruction by the client and a change in the amount of payment such change to be valued in accordance with the rules set out in the contract.
Trust this sheds some light on your problem.
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Dave,
If you hadn’t taken Ashraf to task for a perceived lack of ability in using English, I would not have pointed out your own deficiencies in this area. There is no more malice in my action than there was in yours, but if you are upset, there is an English colloquialism that sums up the situation:
"If you can’t take it, don’t try and dish it out."
Regards
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Dave
thank you for advice. In some items you are simply wrong:
This is an international forum with people form different countries, with different cultures, mother tongues, and religions discussing areas of a common issue: Planning.
As project-oriented people we all experienced that a certain minimum of tolerance and politeness is required to take a project to a succesful end. This we continue here. No need to beat the other, but to exchange opinions, knowledge and experience.
English: This is an international forum where we use English as a commonly understood vehicle.
Basic questions: Since there is no examination to allow admittance well have the complete scope of questions. This for me is much more helpful than a university discussion - its more practice.
Dont discourage young people to ask their questions here!
Salvete
Dieter
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Chris
A nice lesson in English language.
Dieter
Member for
21 years 5 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Dieter,
I completely agree with you; if people can’t ask for advice or seek answers to questions on this forum, what is the point of its existence? Quite often someone asking what appears, at first, to be a very basic question can trigger completely new trains of thought for people who believed themselves to be knowledgeable and experienced.
Hi Ashraf,
There is nothing much wrong with your English; you have always made yourself quite clear when you have asked for or given information. As we use the forum all of us will become better at what we do, simply because of the wealth of knowledge and experience available here. In the same way members who don’t have English as their first language will find their familiarity and expertise improving as they use both the language and the forum. I don’t know whether Dave was having a bad day, or whether he was making a subtle and rather obscure joke, as the post he made criticising yours is full of inaccuracies and poor English.
Hi Dave,
I don’t really think your criticism of Ashraf’s English is justified, considering the standard of your own. I have reproduced what you posted below:
Ashraf Alawady
Following things were noted down in your postings.
a)Your English spelling is very poor in all your postings which seems that you never bother about your English writings that what you have written. Please apply spell check before postings.
b)If you are in Contract Section, such mistakes are never acceptable in this Section. How do you work in such conditions in Contract and Claim Section, it is really questionable?
c) Last thing your questions are very preliminary on Contract.
What is Contract? What are variations?
This seems that you are learning here. Although it is not School for such basic questions so please try to avoid such basic question on the forum and find out solutions yourself rather than posting here and:
Better to do a contract management course.
I won’t bother telling you things like poor sentence construction, ending sentences with a preposition, instead I’ll rewrite it correctly.
Ashraf Alawady,
I have noted the following things in your postings.
a) Your English spelling is very poor, which gives an appearance of carelessness in the things you have written. Perhaps you should apply a spell check to your writing before making a post;
b) If you work in a Contracts Section, you should already understand that such mistakes are not acceptable. I seems questionable to me that you can work in such conditions;
c) Finally, your questions on contracts, “What are Contracts?” and “What are variations?” are very basic.
This appears that you are using the forum to learn, even though it is not a school to supply answers to such elementary questions. Please try to avoid raising such basic questions on the forum; find the solutions yourself rather raising such posts here, or better still, do a contract management course.
Having rewritten it correctly, I’ll just say that I disagree with it completely, the forum is for the exchange of information, there is nothing saying that it has to be at any particular level.
Finally since you are based in the Vatican, I’ll leave you with a couple of Biblical quotes;
For the purpose of the forum:
Proverbs 9:9
Instruct a wise man and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man and he will add to his learning
For your comments on the use of English
Luke 6:41
Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?
Regards
Chris Oggham
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Dave
After this encyclical (letter from the Pope, whose residence is in Vatican), may I ask you some questions:
1. I’m not a native English speaker, do you allow me asking questions or to reply?
2. In some areas of planning I am expert, in others a beginner, do you....
3. Do members need a PhD in PM before you allow them...
NO! We all started one day and that time we needed seniors’ support. After more than 30 years now in this business I absolutely don’t feel perfect and still have to learn from others. This is a forum of persons related to planning; so there will be between pre-mature and mature all kind of questions. That’s life!
Regards to all
Dieter
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Dave Anderson ,
Thank you for your advices.
Iwill do my best to improve my English spelling and is there any harm to learn from you and from the others.
if you feel that my questions are very preliminary on Contract ,you could give me your answer/openion to spread the benefits for me and for the others.
Thanks
Member for
19 years 1 monthRE: No Subject Specified
ashraf,
in some cases, it might include verbal agreement between two parties; or even sign-language (done in seconds)
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Is it only promise to do something or an agreement legally binding both parties(employer and the contractor).
The contractor binding him self to carry out a certain scope of works based od the contract documents(drawings , specifications, Bill of quantities,the condition of contract, letter of acceptance .......etc.
And the epmloyer binding him self to pay to the contractor as per the rates mentioned in the Bill of Quantities for the approved works done physically on the site.
the above is the summurization of many opinion and discussions i have recieved.
Member for
20 years 10 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Ashraf,
In simple terms a contract is a legally binding promise to do something. Normally between two parties where one party promises to do something and in return the other promises to pay for it.
Member for
18 years 3 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Peace !!
Member for
18 years 4 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi
Ashraf !
My dear friend,nothing personal here.
Be Cool.
Cheers
Member for
19 years 2 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Bolisetti Jogiraju ,
As a proffisional planners/engineers ,we would like to spread the knowledges with new and benefit ideas.
i never thought to make you angry.
Member for
18 years 4 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi
Ashraf !
I totally agreed with dieter.
Cheers
Member for
18 years 5 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf,
This site will clarify all your doubts:
http://www.lawteacher.net/contract.htm
or u can join SCL - UAE (http://www.scl-uae.org)
President is Mr. Shanab, who was dean in Shams university of Cairo
Cheers,
Raviraj
Member for
18 years 9 monthsRE: No Subject Specified
Hi Ashraf
Before you start a work you need a work related training or seniors to accompany you. If you didnt get appropriately trained, kick your superiors into ..
For such business related terms you can find many web-sites, e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract. Have much fun while reading.
This page exists in arabian language as well. Another page Ill give you when Ill be at work again on Monday.
- Contract is the basis of your work. Without a good understanding you cannot start planning.
- Variation, your 100 Million of another thread. Who is responsible, has to pay for additional costs --> PMs work.
- Contract documents: During detail engineering maybe hundreds of documents have to be developped, but some count for progress only - and for payment. For my understanding, these are the contract documents.
Again: Ask your superiors to give you the chance to study.
Regards
Dieter