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P3 Driving License

13 replies [Last post]
Thu, 2004-11-11 03:16
Keith Marsden
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Has anyone on this forum ever been asked to do a one hour "P3 Driving Test" before staring a job/contract?

It seems that there are a lot of "P3 Planners" out there who can barely use a computer, never mind comprehend the more refined points of P3. I’ve worked with several planners over the years who, after a couple of pints, will happily tell you that they "just kinda fell into planning".

At my current project, the CADies are not even allowed on site before passing a simple CAD test (CAD Driving License).

Maybe a similar P3 test might filter out these rogue "P3 Gurus"?
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Sat, 2004-11-13 01:30
#1
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,
The two previous postings make the point exactly. The point being that in my previous posting I mentioned the test I had to take, where there was no question, ie I had to think up an answer that suited the person I had to do the test for. Having gotten the contract I did not work for this particular Planning Manager as the project was in a different country for a different company, but still in the same group. The joke carries on in the sense that the company that this particular Planning Manager was working for was subcontracted to the project I was working on, and as such had to report to myself. This is where I found out how incompetent the Planning department was.
The point being that bad planners can hire good planners, if they are not going to be threatened by them directly, as is often the case in contracting. On most contracts a contract planner does not work in the head office and is mostly on site, thus the individual hiring them is often not directly affected by the quality of the planning.
The individual most affected is normally the Project Manager of the particular project and as such he should actually be selecting the planner. The problem being that not all Project Managers understand planning as well as they should. The reason for this being that most people perceive planning packages such as P3 etc as very difficult to use. The opposite is actually true. People seem to have a liking for example, Microsoft Projects, which is in fact a mickey mouse package and cannot perform the job, but the perception is there that it is user friendly which in fact it is not.
The next point is that as a competent planner part of your job should be to familiarize the Project Manager with the planning package you are using, thus if he wants to know anything or get the right answers he must be able to ask the right questions. I have used this technique on several occasions and the results have been very effective, both for myself and the Project Manager.
Regards
Philip
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Fri, 2004-11-12 04:22
#2
Se de Leon
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I think the issue on not having a planner on the house is something we planners can take advantage. Some planners may package themselves as someone companies can contact in case they need some services of this kind.

On the issue of a planner will not hire a competent planner, I don’t believe that an incompetent planner can ever hire a competent one. For the simple reason, he doesn’t know what a good planner is until he becomes one.
As they say it takes one to know one.

On character,attitude, biases and prejudices etc. issues, I believe there is no single answer to this question. This is a situtational thing that you can only deal with if it already happened.

Se
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Fri, 2004-11-12 03:07
#3
Keith Marsden
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Your quite right. Planners should be hired by planners.

But what happens when there is no planner in place to do the hiring? Or even worse, what happens if the planner doing the hiring is a not so hot himself? I have met people in the past who are paranoid about hiring competent individuals, for fear of making themselves look bad.

Chicken & egg. Average planner recruits worse planner, then mentors them with very poor guidance, fostering bad habits.

I’m turning into a grumpy old man. 33 going on 63.

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Thu, 2004-11-11 22:06
#4
Se de Leon
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Hi guys,

Just want to share with you my experience on the topic.

In my previous work, I was tasked to hire planners for several projects which my company was able to win. Of course they will have to go through normal process of hiring by the Human resources. Around 20 people applied. If you just look at the resume of these people, you will not hesitate but already hire them upon reading their curriculum vitae. The resume are well prepared, all the things a planning evaluator would require are all written in their resume, and some of them really did convince me during the interview.

But here comes the final step, I asked them to produce a schedule in P3 for a part of a foundation works plan(around 200sqm)with resource loading.

Some of them took 6 hours to do it, and still did not finish it, some made it in visio producing a CPM because they can not do it in P3, some just made a list in P3 without coding, some was able to code it but can not produce resource loading, many of them doesn’t know how to generate critical activities etc. etc. etc. In other words only 2 fairly made it.

Lesson of the story: don’t just depend on resume, planners should be hired by planners, hands-on testing is the ultimate test.

Se

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Thu, 2004-11-11 09:59
#5
Philip Jonker
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At a corporate level, the planning manager or project controls manager should produce a planning manual that lays down guidelines for things such as code structures, activity id’s, resourcing, etc. This will ensure more consistent planning, especially where multi-project scheduling is used. Further it will make easier for the PM to understand the programme in that he can have it sorted the way he prefers to see it.
In my experience, I have only come across one or two companies that has something like this in place.
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Thu, 2004-11-11 09:25
#6
Keith Marsden
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The PM does indeed "know" what he wants from a planner.

Unfortunately this will invariably based around the level of service they got from their previous planner.

I’m looking for a simple, strategic way to break this cycle and at the same time encourage a consistant methodology at a corporate level.
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Thu, 2004-11-11 08:44
#7
Erik Jonker
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This is a very good idea, to see if a person can use the package and plan in a logical manner.

I still believe that you need to check the persons references and have an experienced interviewer.

A PM should know what he wants from a planner. The planner should also adapt to a new PM.

There are different planning styles. What works for one PM might clash with another PM.

Cheers

Erik
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Thu, 2004-11-11 06:54
#8
Keith Marsden
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Couldn’t agree more.

The driving test i mentioned is not quite as simple as reproducing/tracing a drwaing. They are asked questions about good practice and methodologies.

I envisage a similar thing with regards to planning. The first part of the test could be about planning principals and the second to do with whichever software is in use.
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Thu, 2004-11-11 06:48
#9
Philip Jonker
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I have spent over 30 years in engineering, the last 14 years mainly in planning/project controls. I recently finished a project in the Middle East, and have been going to some interviews for contractual work. I found that most companies have become suspicious of people selling them selves as planners or planning engineers. I have on two previous occasions been asked to do a test to prove my primavera skills, which I had no problem with. The problem I found was when I asked what the test was, the answer was "Write a program", thus I had to think up something out of my head, nevertheless, I got the job.
I studied civil engineering, and part of one of the subjects was planning. Also when I started working on projects there was no dedicated planners, you did your own planning. This was the rule until the advent of PC’s and planning packages.
One of the earlier contributors mentioned the one hour CAD driving program, this is fine as you can give a drafty a typical drawing to draw. Another point is that most draughtsmen actually started on the drawing board, and progressed to CAD.
As for planning I believe that you must first be able to plan manually and then progress to the computorised planning.
As for the driving test, there is more to it than punching in some activties and linking them. The first thing to do is structure the project in a logical way. Therefore the employer should have a typical drawing for a project. The test should include structuring of the project as well as computor (ie P3) skills.
I believe this will eliminate out a lot of the BULL.
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Thu, 2004-11-11 05:46
#10
Jaco Stadler
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I tend to agree with a practical test.

But I will suggest practical test. Give the person a Drawing/Small Project and ask him to do a short schedule inclusive of cost & Manhours. Then ask him to give you a reports S-Curves etc and explain/show import export function.

When you review the schedule you will see wat type off planner he is and what is his cabability’s. (A persons work say a lot of things)

Remember planning is more than use of software it also includes some planning.

The last time I checked Sky Hooks is expensive and hard to find.

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Thu, 2004-11-11 05:14
#11
Keith Marsden
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Nice analogy with the paint brush.

There are a lot of phony P3 planners out there giving the decent P3 planners a bad name. Black art and all that. I meet so many PMs ho have no idea what to expect out of P3. Of course this is partly their fault for not bothering to find out, but I believe it is primarily because they have been fed half truths by half planner.

This is turning into a bit of a rant.

Back to the main topic.

Would anyone be offended if they were asked to take a simple test? Is there one available?

I would like to make use of this on future projects. If one does not exist, I will be writing one if it’s of any interest to anyone here.
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Thu, 2004-11-11 04:49
#12
x y
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Hi,

I met a lot of planners with no idea about planning and planning softwares i.e. P3 3.1 or P3e/c 4.1, but they are on top and they are claiming knowledge about everything moving into the Project Management area!! How? I don’t know!
Or their criticism of P3: no good graphic reports, bla-bla-bla, but try to ask’em about formulas which governs P3? Or 6 Sigma principles? You gotta be kidding!!!!They are addicted to Excel and Power Point...hihiihi!!! This is like someone will ask a designer to work with PaintBrush not with PDMS or AUTOCAD!
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Thu, 2004-11-11 03:35
#13
KE VIN LEE
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Agree. Many so called planners are bull-shitters or even con-man. I have one in my office in Korea who is the project control leader!
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