(1) Explain your problem, don't simply post "This isn't working". What were you doing when you faced the problem? What have you tried to resolve - did you look for a solution using "Search" ? Has it happened just once or several times?
(2) It's also good to get feedback when a solution is found, return to the original post to explain how it was resolved so that more people can also use the results.
Asta Power Project Users,
As the topic title, I was interested in what method of project structuring you use. I have always used summary bars to breakdown the project.
Summary bars have always served me well for this purpose, using activity codes as well allow filtering etc. but I was reading through the APP help files on a quiet afternoon and studying the WBS in Power Project.
I am struggling to see the benefit of the WBS as opposed to summary tasks / activity codes and was interested in you opinions. Possibly the WBS would not be of benefit because of the type of projects I work on (relatively small construction projects up to 20 million).
Also, expanded tasks, does anybody use these over the other structuring methods?
As far as I can see these are all different ways to do the same thing, the only difference I can see is that a WBS works form the top down going into more detail, whereas the summary bars method work from the part to the whole, although I may be wrong on that one.
I look forward to your opinions! ;-)
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From P3 manual:
"Total float calculation P3 calculates float based on the start or
finish dates of an activity or on the most critical dates. This option
applies only to interruptible scheduling and calculating float for
hammock activities in contiguous scheduling.
P3 automatically calculates total float as finish float, which is the
work period difference between the early and late finish dates.
Choose Start Float if you want float to represent the work period
difference between the early and late start dates of the activity.
Choose Most Critical when you want float to be the lower of the
start or finish float."
From Spider Help:
"Activity float is the amount of time for which an activity may be postponed from its early start without delaying the project finish date."
As you can see from the above statement P3 does not always follow PMI conventional definition of total float to be equal to start float when they differ while Spider Project do. P3 "Choose Most Critical when you want float to be the lower of the start or finish float." is unpredictable and does not tells you which. This can be confusing and is one of my reasons to advocate for using a more descriptive term that will tell you which one and will remind schedulers there is a difference and that even under continuous PDM under certain circumstances they might differ.
By the way another cause for activities to be interrupted can be resource leveling.
Hi Rafael
I have never heard of start float and / or finish float.
If a task is set ASAP or ALAP the float is still the same duration if it is placed at the start or end of the task.
What you call Topics I would call a Summary bar and your hammocks - twisted or otherwise look more like buffers to me.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Mike,
It distorts float if the software does not distinguish between start and finish float. Ironically SureTrack does not distinguish between start and finish float while it implement such functionality, on the other hand Spider distinguish between start and finish float. From your comments I must assume Asta PP does not distinguish between start and finish float.
This functionality does not breaks in any way the rules of CPM. All topic activities have as predecessor the start of the topic activity and as a successor the finish of the topic activity. They are not like a hammock but more like WBS activity types you can create external driving links. It is the equivalent of using a common start milestone and a common finish milestone on each member activity, is more about ease of use and error prevention. As a matter of fact it exposes the intention of why using so many links without creating a display mess, is more transparent.
It is very common for start and finish float to be different not only on this type of activity, topic activities, but also on hammocks, splitting activities and on other occasions can be caused by how related activities progress. I remember months ago I was arguing float shall be named not float but either start float or finish float as the term float only to mean start float is not as clear.
I must assume you do not use hammocks, especially when hammock start is driven by a SS relationship and the finish by a FF relationship, two of your favorite medicines on a single spoon. Do you use hammocks?
In the following example the hammock finish is critical but is shown in green as criticality is by CPM convention defined by the start of an activity.
In the following example the hammock is critical because of its start even when its finish has float.
If you cannot see finish criticality on your hammocks because your software does not shows finish float, then you shall not be using hammocks at all, and the same goes to the topic and WBS activity types.
Perhaps hammock shall be defined critical not only by start float but also by finish float, if any of the two is zero this shall be enough to label it as critical. Another option would be to paint the first and second half of the hammock depending on whether start float, finish float or both are critical, and the same goes for any other activity.
Does Asta PP distinguish between start and finish float? To my understanding even MSP does and goes as far as implementing the topic functionality on their equivalent of a WBS activity type on their "outline organization" view similar to SureTrak. WBS activity type being a type that I consider more powerful, especially when some of your WBS member activities are not related to each other and therefore the start and finish drivers of your WBS activity might vary as their relative position changes as the work progress, the hammock might miss some intended possible drivers while the WBS activity will not.
When what you need is a WBS the substitution of it by a hammock might result on the attack of the twisted hammock.
If you would open other links types such as SS to topic activities then the classical problem for modeling the start of an activity as soon as the first of a group of activities start would be an easy task. By the way in SureTrak, same as in MSP, you cannot create a topic activity by selecting an activity type, you must work it on the outline view.
Best regards,
Rafael
Hi Rafael
The same system is on powerproject but I never use it because it distorts the criticality.
Best regrards Mike Testro
Mike your observation is on the bulls eye. Activity 1050 by itself is not linked to any other predecessor but as a member of the topic activity it is dragged by the predecessor of this topic activity. Of course members of a topic activity might have links on external activities, and these links need not to be only FS. You might have within a topic activity many unrelated activities that might start at any time relative to the other but the start of any is also linked to the start of the topic activity.
If you have 20 or 30 activities under a topic activity all links through the topic activity can be easily created and deleted without missing a single one. I believe it is a good functionality that can even be improved as to allow for all types of links to the topic activity but have been unable to convince anyone about its merits.
Because in Spider Project you have access to multiple WBS you would be able to make an activity to belong to multiple topic activities if this topic activities were implemented. As to my knowledge only SureTrak and MSP can do this but on a single organization scheme.
About multiple WBS it is my hope that eventually all high end scheduling software adopts it for the benefit of all users. I consider Asta PP among the top of High End products.
Hi Reafael
Just out of interest - what was task 1050 linked from?
Best regards
Mike T.
Mike,
How many WBS does Asta allows after the best (mine)?
You should be using SureTrak but with links limited to topic activities, a summary activity that can be linked to other activities only by FS relationships. Create links only among topic activities and use a unique topic activity per activity as to make them a summary of a single activity. In this way you will have software that will limit the links on your activities to be FS only.
Best regards,
Rafael
Hi Rafael
Now I see it
WBS = Wine Brandy Scotch
Its 11:20 am here in India - must be middle of the night where you are - go sleep it off.
Best regards
Mike T.
It was enough with the last tequila.
WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS
Guess the PMI is correct, there shall exist a single WBS, and it is mine.
Hi Rafael
How many tequilas did it take to write that last thread?
Some of my best ideas take at least 3 double gins to formulate.
Best regards
Mike Testro
WBS or Work Breakdown Structure is just an organization structure or breakdown of your work, the name cannot spell it better.
WBS levels are not activities but the headings under which they are organized. Like in a book the various WBS levels represent the titles under which your paragraphs (activities) are organized. If you are bad at keeping codes as I do, then you can create your WBS structure graphically directly on your activities table. Then you can move and create activities at will.
It is a fallacy there is a better WBS to be applied to any job. In any case the best WBS is whatever I tell you. It does not matter your opinion or the Owners opinion, just mine matters, the PMI is wrong.
It is a fallacy there shall exist a single WBS. It is primitive thinking of those who still believe in monarchies, Kings and Queeeens, and theirs is the only option. I am the king of the world sunk with the Titanic.
WBS structures can be defined using activity codes but at times this is too strict and falls short. But you shall be free to define WBS using activity codes when appropriate, and believe me it is appropriate many times. WBS structure allows you to independently organize your jobs and insert them under any global WBS, this you cannot do easily with activity codes.
Because WBS can accommodate for itself and for any combination of activity codes that can differ from job to job while the converse is not true then the most logical way to keep all under a single interface is by using WBS. You got problems if your software is primitive and only allows for a single WBS.
WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS- WBS
Hi Robert
You seem to be going about things the right way.
You may be interested in the training modules for Asta PowerProject that are available at:
These are a series of interactive power point slides that I have put together to help construction planners get the best out of the software and avoid bad planning practice.
I doesnt just tell you what to do but how to do it and why.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Thanks for your response Mike,
You have confirmed my thoughts on the WBS.
I use the activity codes instead of to define levels, to separate the work into trades, I have filters setup up within my template for many of the trades so i can pull out the ground works for example, or the mechanical/electrical works and present them as an individual chart which we find useful for subcontract procurement to tie the subcontractors into phasing and the periods when they will be on and off site.
The company which i work for are not what you might call programme driven, as such i am trying to understand what a good planner should be doing as well as what i am required to do within my role, for my current purposes at least summary tasks seem the best option then.
After five years as a trainee and now an intermediate planner the £20m sheds are still quite large to me! I work mainly on tenders probably 75% of my time, the remaining 25% split between the 7-10 projects within my region doing monthly (and bi-monthly if something is going wrong!) site visits and progress recording, not the biggest projects i know but it does give me continued exposure to different stages of different construction methods which is helpful at this point in my career.
Thanks for your response Mike,
You have confirmed my thoughts on the WBS.
I use the activity codes instead of to define levels, to separate the work into trades, I have filters setup up within my template for many of the trades so i can pull out the ground works for example, or the mechanical/electrical works and present them as an individual chart which we find useful for subcontract procurement to tie the subcontractors into phasing and the periods when they will be on and off site.
The company which i work for are not what you might call programme driven, as such i am trying to understand what a good planner should be doing as well as what i am required to do within my role, for my current purposes at least summary tasks seem the best option then.
After five years as a trainee and now an intermediate planner the £20m sheds are still quite large to me! I work mainly on tenders probably 75% of my time, the remaining 25% split between the 7-10 projects within my region doing monthly (and bi-monthly if something is going wrong!) site visits and progress recording, not the biggest projects i know but it does give me continued exposure to different stages of different construction methods which is helpful at this point in my career.
Hi Robert
Unlike Primavera use of WBS is an option in PowerProject to use if you want it.
You can either set up a unique WBS for a standalone project or copy and paste a company wide WBS system to link tasks to cost centres etc in spreadsheets.
I once described WBS in this forum as "A side issue for bean counters".
There is no point unless your programme is part of an integrated project control system such as P6.
I use a rudimentary WBS when I am transferring resource data from the cost plan BOQ to the tasks - but I put the codes in a user field.
For organising tasks into levels the summary bar is ideal and when this is coupled with colour codes for each level 1-4 the effect is that you have complete control on presentation and filtering.
I have never bothered with expanded bars - again a pointless option.
Small jobs of 20 million - Just a garden shed in my current field - 4 to 5 billion us$ - but powerproject works very well.
Best regards
Mike Testro
Email: PPadmin@planningplanet.com
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