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The Loss of Independence

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Thu, 2009-10-22 18:11

Raphael M. Dua

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Groups: Accreditation Editors, Board of Advisors, Civil Engineering, GPCCAR Editors, Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas

I have thought long and hard and now that Planning Planet has decided to eat at the Devils Table, and no longer be independent and user driven, it is time to go

Have made some good contacts and hopefully taught a good number of people what Planning Scheduling is all about

Planning and Scheduling is NOT about software, and as that is the way this site will go, I am not inclined to continue to give Oracle FREE help in fixing their products

So in true tradition of Planning and Scheduling I am going to
1) Spit the Dummy
2) Throw all my toys out the cot
3) and Bu**er off into the sunset :-)

So you can scratch member 50 from your list of 30,000 members

Raf

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Sat, 2009-10-31 06:25

Scarllet Pimpernel

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What is this *********ing about loss of Independence?
[Moderated by Gary W]

And here you are exchanging views freely. Not even the dictators (moderators) interfer in the discussions.

What is the emotion all about leaving our beloved planning planet PP?

Common guys grew up.

This is the most free loving, independent minded plannet on earth, PP.

In conclusion: There is no such things as Loss of Independence in PP since the very essence of PP is freedom, freedom to all.

Thank you,
Scarlett

Mon, 2009-10-26 11:01

Rafael Davila

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Posts: 5230

Groups: Spider Project Team

Raf,

I like the idea of Delay Tasks that satisfies a planning need but avoid negative lag pitfalls, under this circumstances I am willing to accept and even promote the prohibition of negative lag.

Just give me the functionality.

Yes I can remember Micro Planner had a few activity types not available in other software that would help to avoid some logic pitfalls without denying the scheduler of a simple method to model your needs.

Simple and safe, quite simple.

Primavera is involved in monstrous database files, but not much on relevant functionality.

Another Primavera way of doing things I don’t like is that constraints might alter the backward pass computations to the extreme you get lost and cannot find the logic. The problem is that some of our specs require the use of these constraints with the purpose of creating negative lag, a concept I find unnecessary even I call it an aberration. I would like to hear your opinion.

I would not mind this requirement if you had the option to toggle on and off the effect of these constraints on the backward computations, but Primavera never cared. I have read about many tricks schedulers have to perform, like using Global Changes, to toggle on and off this aberration.

Best regards,
Rafael

Mon, 2009-10-26 10:13

Vladimir Liberzon

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Groups: Accreditation Editors, Board of Advisors, Civil Engineering, GPCCAR Editors, Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas, Regional Representatives, Spider Project Team, TURNAROUND & SHUTDOWN (T/A & S/D)

Hi Raf,
yes, Spider Project keeps performance archives and the project history. And it is easy to get the reports on data changed at any time period.

Rolling wave planning does not permit to escape large models.
The model of the ship body construction consists of more than 11000 activities though it is only the nearest project phase.
If you are trying to find the optimal way you shall look ahead for rather long distance.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Mon, 2009-10-26 01:53

Raphael M. Dua

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Rafael

If you recall your Micro Planner Knowledge, when you archived the set of baseline results produced by the resource analysis that you had management sign off as being true and fair, you had to either Archive your Baseline Data into either the Master Archive (the Budget Archive) or the Interim Archive. This gave me my Audit Baseline as it could not be manipulated

No matter what the user or a local felon tries to do to the Micro Planner results, the data, by trying to overwrite the cells, it cannot be done.

Micro Planner does not allow the user to tamper with the Baseline Data which is backed up in a hidden file within the WBS.

So if somebody does succeed in fiddling, the data values stored with the rollups in the WBS, will now longer balance and so you will get an error message.

In addition there is a date when the record is written to the file and the date the record was originally input .

These two dates act as an audit trail and as far as I can recall nobody else does this.

Vladimir - do you keep an audit date trail each time your task / activity record in the master file is written to or read?

It is great fun, when the occassional user has been a bit naughty and tried to manipulate the results (under the PM’s direct instruction naturally) and it has failed. All I do is to look athe audit dates of all the data and if a naughty act has occurred I merely ask whuy was this record written to on a specific date and it is THE ONLY recors for that date.

It is very rare for a status run to progress just a single task, but I suppose you could, and so I am able to maintain the integrity of my files.

I never create humungous files which is so beloved of MSP and Primavera users as I need to be able to produce results swiftly, economically and accurately.

Use the Rolling Wave technique

This reduces the need for the Planner to have to fiddle the results because after days of trying to locate which link in several thousand is stuffing it up and can’t find it.

These vast networks with negative lags and (would you believe I have just had to fix a (new) clients programme, because his programming consultant has used NEGATIVE Start to Start.

I did not know That was possible,

Micro Planner refuses to accept any negative durations.

Other than Dr Who, nobody goes backwards in time.

Micro Planner uses Delay Tasks to produce the effect of delaying the successor task say of Steel Erection which say cannot start until for instance The required steel has been ordered two weeks prior to this task Erect Steel can commence.

Regards

Raf

Sun, 2009-10-25 20:42

Rafael Davila

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Groups: Spider Project Team

Raphael M. Dua

Can you expand on the functionality of an Audit Baseline; I believe this is functionality similar to the audit trial in accounting packages, something Ron Winter and others have mentioned as a good thing.

It can prevent cheating from any side and makes validation easier and more reliable.

If your contract is a Multiple Prime Contract, most probably the contract designates a Project Manager who will coordinate the work between different Prime Contractors who shall cooperate and be subject, within reasonable limits, to the schedule requirement of the PM. Even if less experienced than you he is the coordinator, sorry.

Yes if he is a cheater, or hypothetical cheater, an Audit Trail like those in accounting packages can uncover it.

Best regards,
Rafael

Sun, 2009-10-25 05:11

Vladimir Liberzon

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Hi Raf,

Viewers are very useful within the organization where many people (top management, resource managers, procurement specialists, accountants, etc.) need to analyze the schedules (costs, resource requirements, etc.) from different sides.
When the schedule consists of many thousand activities and resources pdf reports do not help much.

Contract requirements and relationships here may be different.

The Client usually asks the Contractor to submit the construction schedule with the estimates of the number of people that will be involved in construction activities and machines that will be used. If the schedule was accepted then the changes that are made by Contractor team shall be explained and agreed.

Collecting soft copies the Client can analyze the trends of project performance and will notice the problems early. Usually it may result in requiring to present the recovery schedule. I don’t remember any case when the Clients made any changes themselves - they ask the contractors to develop the plans with corrective actions. The Client team may give some advise or critisize Contractor team decisions and schedules but will never change the schedules without Contractor team agreement. In any case they have no direct access to the Contractor database and project schedules.

But it is not rare that there are many contractors in one program. The schedules of these contractors are interdependent and the Client team collects separate schedules and includes them into the portfolio schedule. In this case they need working package to schedule the project portfolio and to submit to program contractors their schedules with the revised dates of those works that depend on the performance of other contractors.
It is not rare when the Client is responsible for supplies of some materials and equipment. In this case his supply schedule is the part of the overall program schedule.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Sun, 2009-10-25 04:15

Roland Tannous

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Hi all,

I can now certainly imagine what you described happen over here, where clients have the habit of insisting on being handed a soft copy.
I guess its any time you put any kind of info into the hands of an ignorant pretentious person it would end up being used on many occasions.As if you’re the one who has no idea what he’s talking about. I learned that the hard way, nothing related to planning but rather something else.
Thanks for this advice/point of you though. Certainly should be more cautious with my schedules
Regards
Roland

Sat, 2009-10-24 19:16

Rafael Davila

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Posts: 5230

Groups: Spider Project Team

Raphael,

If your Client is the Contractor and the other planner client is the Owner, then maybe the Owner and his planner are willing to take charge of means and methods and the responsibility that goes with it, then why not change the contract to a cost plus and let the Owner play the Project Manager and your team a at no-risk Contractor.

The management of the schedule is the sole responsibility of the General Contractor unless it is a Construction Management type of agreement or a schedule was agreed prior to signing the contract.

If it is how I understood it, the traditional Owner-GC lump sum Contract type, I would write a lawyer letter to both asking them not to interfere with your means and methods, all they have is the right to know, the Contractor keeps the right to plan. In this way they should get the message, their intromission might expose them to some liability.

If your client follows their game without issuing any warning he might waive his right to future claims. What they are doing is very dangerous not to take it seriously or they will be on top of you during all the course of the job.

I have been subject to such intentions, it was solved with the f-word at a meeting, the f-word was omitted on the minutes but the rest was kept on record.

Sorry, this is serious business, this is though and I am a no breed dog, you can call me a mutt or a dingo.

Best regards,
Rafael

Sat, 2009-10-24 17:49

Raphael M. Dua

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The need for Viewers generally arises when there are a number of people who wish to see the results.

I found that including a free pdf writer with Micro Planner , it generally was sufficient.

Where a large number of folk may want to see certain data, we did throw in a couple of licences when the user had a large number of existing licences.

From my viewpoint unless the viewer intends to change the data ( Better Not) having established a plan for the project which includes all the reports whhich are to be issued with proper description of the function of the report, and having issued these in pdf format. There never was a need or indeed a complaint about viewers.

Observation over the years has taught me that the further away from the actual management of the project, the more vocal these folk tended to be. Thus the need for a soft copy of my project file.

Before you knew you would be critised for your logic, the Client’s planning expert has made several "Very" Helpful changes to your data, whhich gives the Client a much better delivery date than the one, that, I as the Construction Planner and Scheduler had sweated blood tears, frustration for lacvk of design guaranteed by the client to developed and have agreed as part of the contract.

I am in the middle of a bitter fight in NZ where the clients’ programmer has made many alterations to my critical path and has in several cases (I always keep backups) has overwritten several of the PLanned Starts and Finishes. He claims that my client and I have not created the most efficient programme and he has created a better one under instructions from his client.

I told my client not to agree to providing a soft copy which is becoming very prevalent, because from past experience I knew this would happen.

Neither P3 or MSP are safe, you cannot stop a dishonest person from manipulating the data.

At least in Micro Planner I have an Audit Baseline which the user cannot alter in any way, not even by trying to run excel over it. Hidden files my friends is the only way and you would have to write a fairly tight viewer to ensure the integrity of data.

After all the software folk have provided us with decoding for pdf files, so I have no real proof what then orignial file showed.

Try explaining these things in court, then you begin to understand why we the Planners and Schedulers need control of our data and yo use software which gives us that.

In view of all the kind words I have had via this post and direct to my e-mail, I will hang on a bit longer, BUT

Mike - yes I would love a paper on Calendars, I will send you the writing Instructions

Thanks to you all

Raf

Sat, 2009-10-24 02:37

#10

Mike Testro

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Groups: Building Information Modelling, Content Moderators, GPCCAR Editors

Hi Roland.

Vladimir beat me to it.

Exactly the same facilities pertain to Powerproject which has a free viewer and also a conversion to and from P3.

But if you set up a relatively complex set of libraries and work patterns it will all be lost in the transfer.

Best regards

Mike Testro

Sat, 2009-10-24 02:32

#11

Vladimir Liberzon

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Ronald,

when somebody buys Spider Project license he/she will get not only restricted working license but also free Spider Project Viewer that can be installed without any restrictions.

Spider Project Viewer is the version that permits everything except changing schedule data. They are used by top managers and all other personnel that need an access to the project schedules but have no authority to change data. Spider Project Viewer can be used by the Client or Subcontractors.

Our clients usually install five times more Viewers than working licenses. It makes our licenses rather cheap if to compare with the software that requires installing working licenses evrywhere.

Besides, the export to MS Project or Primavera is available.

We do not have similar problems here in Russia where Spider Project is well known and used in most large scale programs. But sometimes our customers meet these requirements and in this case they export their schedules to other formats.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Sat, 2009-10-24 01:56

#12

Roland Tannous

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Hi Rafael

You are correct. I am new to Planning planet.

You’re right about many things. Even here where I am ,in this part of the world, owners demand Primavera or MS Project. This is due to:
1) they don’t know better.
2) they’ve only been subjected to those two brands.

The only downside I could see, of telling the owner , as a contractor, "Hey I use a different software brand to do the same thing and we’d like to be using it on this project" , is the ability of the owner to get a softcopy of that schedule we build for review purposes. After all we’re not gonna send him a copy of the software just so he can review the programme. But this can probably be solved if scheduling programs implemented some kind of web based interface, that has limited editing features, which would allow owners to view different layouts of the schedule, customize as they wish , be able to do everything they need to "review a program".
If such a feature was available , maybe clients would be less resistant to the idea of using a different software brand?

Fri, 2009-10-23 20:23

#13

Rafael Davila

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Groups: Spider Project Team

Roland,

Your name sound new to me in Planning Planet, so I welcome you and hope to hear from you for many years to come.

In the US and its territories owners/project developers are infatuated with Primavera brand of scheduling software. I am from one of the US territories, we are Spanish speaking with English also considered an official language, we got the best of both worlds. Now you can understand why I am against the infatuation with Primavera. Is not like in Europe where seems like the Contactor can make his own choice.

Owners usually require this brand in their specs. But this brand is outdated, full of bugs and uses substandard algorithms to handle the issues on resource leveling.

Because of this Owner’s infatuation Primavera/ORACLE does not cares. We need competition; I welcome Asta Power Project, Spider Project and Micro Planner. I hope this dominance by Primavera ends soon.

I have perceived genuine interest on what we say at Planning Planet from Asta, Spider Project and Micro Planner, I cannot say that about Primavera.

Ask yourself why some vendors do care and keep posting into Planning Planet while others do not. Have you seen a Primavera or MS Project representative posting and accept the challenge of being questioned?

Best regards,
Rafael

Fri, 2009-10-23 09:39

#14

Roland Tannous

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Hello all,

just a side note.
I don’t think that owners/project developers or contractors are gonna be really impressed just cause you use this or that brand of scheduling software if their project is gonna finish late and not within the budget. After all the software , Oracle or not , Primavera or not is just a tool. If you don’t know what you’re doing, the software can’t help you there.

That’s why i see that there will actually be more misinformed planners,planner wannabes,much more than there will be real planners.
And this whole one-click scheduling software mania will eventually only lead to the appraisal of people like you who have the experience , know what they’re doing. So value of veteran planners like yourself will only increase with time.
I hope you stay and share your experience/tricks/tips with us. And just be patient with those of us who don’t really know what they’re saying :))

Regards,
Roland

Fri, 2009-10-23 04:06

#15

Mike Testro

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Hi Raphael

Me too.

Would you like a paper on use of calendars?

Best regards

Mike Testro

Fri, 2009-10-23 03:33

#16

Gary Whitehead

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I agree with Vladimer, Raf.

I understand why you and many other members have concerns about the link between Oracle and PP, but as far as I am aware, nothing bad has actually happenned. -Many people still openly criticise primavera & oracle without intervention, other software packages are still given just as much discussion time as before, the moderators have not been asked to change what they do to protect Oracle, no-one has been banned, etc.

I would sincerely request that you keep posting here -your experience and insight are invaluable to many members. Please don’t leave because you are worried about what may happen. Please stay and wait to see if it does.

Regards,

Gary

Fri, 2009-10-23 02:28

#17

Vladimir Liberzon

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Dear Raf,

let’s wait and see what will happen with PP.

I agree that transformation of Planning Planet from the independent site that proudly did not sell anything into its current state is disappointing.
I think that maybe we shall create another good discussion site that will be really independent from any vendor using PMI COS.

But there are many people here who have not your experience and just don’t know that the world or project planning is not restricted by MS Project and Primavera, that the software just supports the methods and ideas and not vice versa. They need you.

So I suggest to be patient and wait for a while.
If PP transformation into Oracle division will proceed we will leave it but in any case let’s try to make PMI COS site more useful for project planners and schedulers. I think that it shall be discussed in Calgary.

Best Regards,
Vladimir

Fri, 2009-10-23 02:18

#18

Rafael Davila

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Posts: 5230

Groups: Spider Project Team

Raf,

This my own video of a refinery fire that started an hour ago (2:15am local time) 3 miles from home; we felt the explosion at home and woke up.

Best regards,
Rafael

Fri, 2009-10-23 01:18

#19

Dieter Wambach

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Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas, TILOS

Dear Raf

I hope your thread was created to wake up the admins. We need experienced experts as you! Without persons like you this site would lack of essentials.

Why don’t you contact the admins to improve the headline by micro-planner, Vladimir’s Spider, and others - price for this ad according to size of the company. In my opinion this would be fair.

As you wrote before: Discussions on planning and scheduling must be independent from software - in addition I see importance of special sides for the different software packages.

Just my humble opinion.

Keep being a strong member!

Regards from Germany

Dieter

Fri, 2009-10-23 00:32

#20

Raphael M. Dua

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Posts: 136

Groups: Accreditation Editors, Board of Advisors, Civil Engineering, GPCCAR Editors, Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas

Rafael

Thank you most kindly for your support.

The colonialisation of the World by Oracle and its’ products will be a hard thing to stop, whilst so many people who aspire to being a PLanner and / or Scheduler continue to follow corporate party lines knowing that as you do, it is almost impossible to produce factual and correct result for one’s PM.

You have convinced me that I should look at how MPI prices its products and provide a price point that will make our Oracle friends somewhat unhappy.

Now interesting enough since this saga started, a whole heap of lost long time ago Micro Planner users are coming out of the woodwork.

Even a couple of Universities in the US want to come back, if the price is right !

Why don’t you write a paper on Resource Scheduling in PR and send it to me for consideration at the forthcoming PMI COS 7th Annual conference in Calgary CA next May 3 - 6th

I am the Chairman of the Scheduling Group for the conference and I am looking for papers

Raf

Thu, 2009-10-22 18:51

#21

Rafael Davila

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Posts: 5230

Groups: Spider Project Team

Raphael,

I cannot accept it. We need people with your credibility that stands for true relevant issues and advocate the practical approach to management.

Some, especially ORACLE, have gone too far into the unpractical, by producing such monstrous programs they are stealing the planning away from the PM, and are putting in his place a specialist that can enter numbers into software but has no idea what he is planning. They are using the concept of enterprise applications to unempower the enterprise, when enterprise applications are intended to give acces to many and with it empower the front line manager.

Do you know how many date definitions P6 have? Some are intermediate values that make the dropdown menus never ending, among many you end up selecting the wrong field. Well if you select the right field most probably P6 with so many bugs will use it wrong. They are running a huge Monte Carlo Simulation using all their users to see how wrong a schedule can go.

Keep here until we are banned.

Best regards,
Rafael

Sat, 2009-10-24 02:53

#22

Roland Tannous

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Posts: 84

Groups: None

Hi all,

Thanks for the info.
I guess i should start looking into both these two software.
i am curious now.
Regards
Roland

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