wait till that time

Neeraj,

The point exactly.

Regards

Philip

Hi AKA Edgar,

Well appreciated is your comment, despite the censorship, of posting. We all know there is a lot of people with tunnel vision out there.


Freedom is in your mind, and if you cannot appreciate it you become a moderator ( Censor)

We live our lives like humans, so need not be treated as we do not exist. Maybe an IQ test for every moderator is in the order of the day. Can probably solve the problem, and leave the computors in charge.

An easier life without moderation. I have everything I want, a brilliant wife, who does not believe in moderation, 4 dogs who agree with my wife, and five children, who have no moderation, and everybody is happy, why if I have something to say does some idiot moderator tackle me and delete my contribution?

Regards

Philip

Hi Philip,

Freedom is like computers that never think, but only respond to those minds who may never understand what a Target is.

The link to Freedom...


Edgar (AKA Edgar)

[Deleted by Moderator.]

The part of the brain responsible for conscious thought is believed to be the cerebral cortex. Much of the rest (cerebellum, medula oblongata, corpus collosum, lymbic system) is busy doing the work of keeping everything else running.

Larry

Gordon
Hung by my own pertard
Glad to see you are thinking
for me maybe like edgar asleep
Clive

Edgar
My opinion is contained in post 19
If the cerabelum allows us to breath but is considered a primitive part of the brain which does not think but merely reacts to signals then computers can think
Clive

What do you think Clive? Does the subject really think?

I’m awake!

Gordon,

you forgot the four (4) stars on Oscar’s shoulder, it’s free!

People are getting paid for counting the stars?

OK, there are 895,411,256,324,415,510,005,512,546 of them.

Prove me wrong, or give me my money :o)

why not try counting the stars & caressing the winds?

maybe there you’ll find out.

Hi Alex,
and who is that?

Hi Gordon,

Your doggy probably likes you because you give her treats, and some good scratches, thus she does her thing. Try the same thing with your computor, and the cd drive or floppy will pack up because of the stuff you are shoving down it.

Thank you Gordon,

First of all there is no religious or creation issue here.

You hit the nail on the head, if your dog Alfie and my Tammy has the remotest connection, it is via some wolf somewhere in the the distant past, however, I bet you they are nothing like each other. The do things in their own ways which each of us likes. Now, try and create a doggy robot, and program it in such away, that everybody likes it, impossible, we pick our dogs as puppies and learn to like them as they are. There is a thing called DNA, which determines who we are. This is organic, and the closest thing in the inorganic world is silanes, where if you could manipulate, you stand a chance of growing something inorganic like DNA. This has not happened yet, so computors have a backlog, and as a result can’t think.

Regards

Philip

Hi Darrell

Maybe if you took some time of to read, some books, you would find out there is a lot of people out there that think, a it helps to know about these things. You do have the right to accept what you agree with, and argue against what you disagree with. Darrell you are a big boy so you have the right to think, and also have perceptions of your own, like the fact that what you perceive as perceptions is not evidence.

Regards

Philip

Hi Darrell,

As I have stated in a previous posting, there is definitive evidence that the soul exists. I suggest you get hold of a book,"The Soul’s Code : In Search of Character and Calling" by James Hillman, a professor in psychology, who who has some interesting and well researched perceptions on the subject. You ask the question why do we still do bad things, remember not all souls are good, some is bad, but mainly thet are a mix of both, Hillman comes from this angle, and use statistical analysis to show his point, further he looks at various characters, with well documented backgrounds/biographies, and matches their home circumstances as children etc, to establish that the soul is always there, from the beginning of the persons life. For instance he takes people like hitler and and various serial killers, and proves that the same behavioural patterns existed, despite childhood circumstances and upbringing.

Computors can also do bad things, but they need somebody bad to program them. That is why there is viruses.

Regards,

Philip

Darrell,
As I said, earlier, computers, unlike people do not have free will. They are unable to identify any action other than what they have been programmed for.
Because of the incredible processing power of the brain, we are able to continually reprogram ourselves.
True, there are people who continue to repeat the same bad or good actions without variance, but being obsessive compulsive is considered a mental illness in the DSM IV.

I suggest that discussions about the soul and so forth have no real bearing in this discussion, as it has nothing to do with whether computers think, but has everything to do with whether computers are the equivelant of humans, with the rights, responsibilities, etc. thereof.

Maybe the conversation could be better served by someone defining what thought is? Is it mere calculation, or does it have other, more esoteric properties that differentiate it from mere number crunching?

Larry

I don’t see it as a problem necessarily, more as a difference that really ends up being a benefit in some areas and a liability in others. Gotta take the good with the bad on both ends. Difference is, we can change computers much more easily than we can computers.

Larry

Philip,
Excellent post on the role of creativity and thinking outside the box as a difference between AI and HI (Human Intelligence).

Computers can think, but they cannot think differently than we tell them to. This has advantages, but it also requires humans to be very clear and unambiguous in their instructions. When a computer makes an error, it’s because someone gave bad instructions. When people make errors, it can be because they are having a bad day, are distracted, or have other things going on that consume processing time. The difference is that a computer won’t complain, it’ll just shut down or start giving goofy answers.

There’s a science fiction story by Heinlein or Asimov about a computer that is programmed with AI. It works well for a while, but soon starts to give bad answers, insert mistakes here and there. The main scientist doesn’t know what to do until his son tells him to let the computer run by itself every so often. The punchline to the story is "Gee, Dad. A kid’s gotta have time to play!"

Might be another possible difference between AI and HI.

Another Day (getting better)...

Hi There,

We are not stardust...We are not billion-years old (maybe more)...We are not golden...We’re more than diamonds...We’re Humans...The "earned value" of a perfect plan...Not comparable with anything that can be seen...

We are created to live & multiply...Not to live & destroy.
We are naturally gifted...Gifted to plan...a meaningful plan...not to make wholeness another level of emptiness

Hope we can preserve what has been planned for us.

Are we obliged to show our respect & gratitude?

Thank the Creator, we’re free...

Hi there, Phil.

The Japanese, they still work to death and never lazy. Agree, rugby is improving here and is gaining popularity. Baseball, football/soccer, zumo wrestling are still the most popular though.

The robot thing I mentioned did not meant that they were created to replace sports but they just served as experimental to prove that they can do tasks just as humans.

Oscar Wilde said:
hot
not crazy hot
i keep my hat on especially at midday

Noel Coward would be proud of you, as he was the one that said that only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.



Larry

hot
not crazy hot
i keep my hat on especially at midday

oscar

We all have a point
i dont know what yours is edgar
the is planning planet not the god network
edgar pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee
oscar

Darrel,
Perhaps the difference between computers and people in this respect is that while both may do repetitive tasks, and may function in repetitive ways, there are important differences.

Humans have the choice to behave differently. Computers do not.

Humans have curiousity, while computers do not.

Humans will daydream, computers do not.

Larry

Hi Guys,
I hope we do, that is live in peace

Hi Guys,
I am not as fascicious as I sound, and appear to be, I just like stirring the pot. Somebody, no names no pack drill earlier mentioned that he believes in God, well the questions is who is this so-called God? I believe he is the sum of all the souls in the universe, and that we are all part of it, you have to think in a good way, in that we are all shared resources of this entity, and some is good and some is bad. However, at the end of the day it is the combination of good and bad, that determines the outcome of things. There is an interesting point that was made in a book callled the "Soul’s code" written by some american professor, where he studied the actions of various people, and classified them on a bell curve. At the bad end you had Hitler and at the good end some or other actress or singer, however, he referred to the people in the centre as the mediocre souls (Not in a derogatory way), and strangely, some of the most important people who have lived falls within this bracket.

Anyway, I had a funny experience yesterday, in that I was on a course, and was supposed to do a mental calculations, ie using my ten fingers, like in a abacus, and kept on getting the wrong answers. Although I knew the answer instintavely, my brain kept coming to the wrong answer. The problem was on the back pass trying to calculate the negative float, I was always out by one day. I couldn’t figure it out, until I realised I forgot to count in zero ie 0, I was going from 1 to -1. Sounds stupid, but when the program is defective, this sort of bull happens.

This is a problem that often happens in software, the programmers make a basic mistake, and [deleted by Moderator.] Humans are fallible, but computors are not, and if the human input is correct, the computor output is as well. My answer is still that computors only think as well as the humans driving them.

Regards

an excellent point, very well put

In response to Darrell’s last post, the key difference boils down to who does the programming.

In our repetitive actions, we create purpose built neuron circuits in the brain to handle these activities, these circuits are refined and improved each time we perform the activity, until we can do it ’without thinking’ .. learning the six times table is a fair example of this, but so is a faatballer’s ball juggling.

The average pro footballer may not be particularly adept at calculus or ballstics, but learns exactly how and how hard to kick the ball to make it go where he/she wants. They learn this by repeating the activity over and over again (practice).

A computer however, tends to rely on external programming (you or I) to develop and refine the process flow.

In response to Phillip’s post, Edgar’s brain probably can outperform his computer.. providing there’s no interference from Edgar’s mind. The calculations required to juggle, for example, are rather complex.. but they can be done in the background while holding a conversation.

But here we see the distinction between Brain and Mind... Hard wired or sub concious calculations (ballistics for juggling) and impulses (breathing etc) vs Concious thought (whiling the day away discussing abstract topics on forums such as this)

Edgar,

What is the definition of thinking? Computors run based on algorithms (Hopefully you understand the word) that do the calculations for you, obviously you use your computor on a daily basis, to think for you, so why ask stupid questions.

Can you actually do what the computor does in seconds, calculate a forward- and back pass, try writing the software to do this, and you will not know your arse from your elbow( Hi there to the moderators, delete the arse word)

Hi Darrell,
Quite right, we are also programmed, and the software is our DNA, therefore, the DNA always changes slighly from parents to children, but can still be traced back.

Humans seem to have the perception, that we are the only ones who can think rationaly, because we can talk and write. I do not believe this is true, as my little Maltese who cannot talk or write has the ability to think, which I can see in her everyday actions, as she has enotions, which has a strong link with intellegence.

The potential is there for artificial intellgence, however, the degree of sofistication it might reach is debatable. The subject is very interesting, but as in all other things the proof of the pudding lies in the eating.

Regards

Philip

When a computer thinks outside the box, people hit the reboot button.

Stacy
Participate at the Project Management Knowledge Base!

Gents

My understanding separate computer and human is "innovation"

Computer do what we instructed them to do. For example computer can take picture and can turn a picture into oil painting. But computer cannot draw a picture from "Imagination" in other word, invent a picture or objects.

So "Computer dont think, it did what we instructed it to do"

Cheers

Alex

Yes Darrell ?????

Darell
Give me inteligence artificial or not

Why the concern?

Are you thinking of giving up planning and let the computer do it for you

If so artificial looks like a superb project manager yes no maybe

Actually pretty much like a lawyer or politician

Maybe inteligence before atrificial inteligence is the key

Oscar

I don’t know about Artificial Intelligence but I’ve come across Artificial Ignorance often enough from customers and subbies.


:-)

Hi Guys,

The problem is that binary logic is exactly that, 2, i.e. either on or of, the point is how many fingers do you have i.e. digits, and how do you count with them? If you had one finger and you try and count in the normal way you can count to 1, in the binary way you can count to 2 , if you have 5 fingers in the normal way you can count to 5 but in binary you can count to 31, ad infinitem thus the more digits (fingers) you have the more you can count .

The only case I have ever found for artificial intelligence, was David Hawkins ( a champion of Charles Darwin’s theory for evolution), who states that the is the potential for inorganic elements to evolve in the same way as organic elements (i.e. the hydrogen/carbon fraction), in other words silicon (silates) has the potential to grow the same way as organic elements. This means that there is potential for inorganics to become intelligent , however, this is highly unlikely as Darwin theory of evolution spans millions of years and no such signs have been noticed, thus , I expect my might have to wait a few more million years for some answers.

Another author who discusses this subject is Dr.Peter Plichta who did a lot of work in connection with silicone chains and you can read his book “ Gods secret formula” to understand where he is coming from (the prime number theory) . Although the authors, are talking about totally different subjects, there is some correlation between the two authors.

The potential for artificial intelligence exits, however, there are no facts to prove it.

The interesting point was when Stephen Hawkins retracted his statements about black holes.

What can we say?

Regards

Darrell

If you think about it (no pun) the human brain is simply a machine that runs on electro-chemical stimuli. OK it is far more complex than the most advanced super-computer, bu tlooked at in those terms then yes, if we design something to have independant thought, and it fulfills it’s design then we have a thinking computer.

It’s simply that so far we are not clever enough to engineer something as sophisticated as the human brain.

Thank goodness.

Oh, and Self Determination in this context I meant to be the ability to influence your own existance through making judgements.

Andy

And are all computers (modern super computers) still built on binary, 0, 1, F logic?????Binary logic is just 0 & 1, there is no F option. I am not aware of any production computers (whether supercomputer or PC) that offer a 3 state logic system. I seem to recall reading some time ago that 3 state logic systems were being pursued (perhaps with relation to quantum computers), but I haven’t heard anything about it in a while.

Bernard Ertl
InterPlan Systems

Hmmmmmm,

Well I think that when you introduce a concept like fuzzy logic, the process behind AI, where a binary yes or no becomes yes, no or maybe, we are starting to get to the stage where a computer can think.

If a computer can think should it have the same rights as a human? Self determination etc.