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Democracy vs Totalitaranism

123 replies [Last post]
Sat, 2005-08-20 03:04
#91
Razi Khan
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Hi,

Before Renaissance

Killing of Jesus.
Persecution of Christians.
Crusade.

After Renaissance

Imperialism and colonial rule.
Racism
Slavery.
Genocide.
Fascism.
Nazism.
Holocaust.
Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Communism.
Apartheid
Bosnia.
Embargo.
Clash of Civilizations.

These are the hallmarks of societies which presume itself as the Inventor, Champion and Propagator of “Democracy” as if “Democracy” is end in itself for which Human Being is Created.

Moreover defeat of Napolean in Waterloo by Lord Nelson had nothing to do with “Democracy”. But with Planning a big “Yes”. It was just matter of “Fifteen minute or so” …. I forgot the detail…….


Cheers.
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Sat, 2005-08-20 00:49
#92
Katalin Hovanyi
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I’m reading Michael Moore book "Dude, where’s my country?" Try to read it. I think it is about the democracy. He was able to publish it, but so what. Most of my life I worked for big companies. All over the places restrictions. Try to make a "real" schedule when you are on the contractor’s side or the client’s side. Think about the milestone contracts. Big "democracy" there too. I think we need to discuss this things among us. How to do your job without hurting anybody.
Regards Katalin
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Fri, 2005-08-19 14:49
#93
Philip Jonker
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Darrell,

As an Irishman,it surprises me that you do not know of Patrick Henry, this was a politician of note in America, with simular ideas to most of your countrymen. I hope you do not think Paul Revere is a cigarette. Henry coined the words, "Give me liberty or give me death", theay got so pissed off the threw all the English tea into Boston harbour. This resulted in a war where they kicked the english’s butts.

An interesting point is that the first so-called democracy was Scotland, and then France. But the american Red Indians had figured it out before this, and this accelerated the american style of democracy.

Planners should be living in the future, as that is their job, however, they should rely on history to tel them how they should plan the future and avoid previous mistakes

Regards
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Fri, 2005-08-19 14:30
#94
Philip Jonker
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Hi Andrew,

Napoleon never lost, he made a comeback like Muhammed Ali, the point is actually, that nobody actually knows what his goals were. I have spent quite a bit of time on the subject, a still cant figure out what Napoleon was up to.

The closest assumption I can make was that initially he was overtaken by a democratic fervour, and a while later he realised the armies (people ie the plebs)he was defending the the people who was keeping them in slavery. He then made a decission, to declare himself an Emporer (Dictator) and keep on with the fight for democracy. He was never truly defeated and will be remembered for his role in the fight for democracy. However, he pissed Beethoven off with his Emporer move.
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Fri, 2005-08-19 03:21
#95
Andrew Flowerdew
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Darrell,

You have a very good point, in no state anywhere are we ’free’, just more ’free’ in some than others.

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Fri, 2005-08-19 02:30
#96
Darrell ODea
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Bill,

Excuse the late reply, but in "The States" you can end up on an island, with no god given right, with you right to any rights taken away, never mind free speech.

Personally, true freedom is within the individual.
It is not awarded by a state or government.

Even as you have quoted - Pat Henry (whomever he is), might I suggest is referring to himself, that he would choose death over not being liberated. But was liberated within, as this is what gives him "True" freedom, albeit freedom of speech.

Being able or being allowed to say what you want, does not mean that you are free, well in my opinion.

Respect,
And no disrespect intended.
Darrell

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Tue, 2005-08-16 07:50
#97
Bill Guthrie
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Dear Charleston-Joseph Orbe

your thoughts are refreshing, and liked reading it.

And must remind all the dude who said GIVE ME LIBERITY OR GIVE ME DEATH was none other then old Pat Henry.

That being said, true freedom as we were raised to know in the states means that.
In the states you can get on tv and say the president is a complete idiot, and he is a scumbag,or your government sucks, and nothing will happen to you, this is freedom of speach, where one can say anything that he wants,

FREEDOM IS THE GOD GIVEN RIGHT OF EVERY ONE TO EXPRESS HIS PERSONAL FEELINGS ANY WAY HE WANTS, and if it offends then so be it. THIS IS TRUE FREEDOM.

And not many countries will allow this, even today, in some places I have traveled to,if you go on tv and make statements like that your tail will end up in jail or worse.

So much for the soapbox.

Cheers Bill
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Tue, 2005-08-16 06:37
#98
Charleston-Joseph...
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The word democracy taken from the Greek word (Greek demos,”the people”; kratein, “to rule”), Democracy started in Ancient Greece then traveled to Ancient Rome. Democracy survived the “Dark Ages”, survived absolute monarchy and other form of government that degraded humanity.

In the 20th century we saw the birth of Nazism and the establishment of the Third Reich, Totalitarian German State. In addition, we saw the rise and fall of communism.

When I was in college way back in 1983, my professor predicted the downfall of communism. He based his prediction from history: no form of government that curtailed liberty, freedom and degraded humanity will survive. Communism in the former USSR did fall in August 1991.

I believe long time ago that democracy will last forever because it is in the human heart to be free. As one immortal said: GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH.

Look at the birds, they are free to fly wherever they want to go. Humans also long to be free and to fly wherever they want to go.
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Sun, 2005-08-14 18:37
#99
Andrew Flowerdew
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Philip,

Napoloen the best ever planner - um, I believe he lost in the end - so someone did their planning better!

Good planning gets the end result - Napoleon failed to get the end result he was seeking.
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Sun, 2005-08-14 13:52
#100
Philip Jonker
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Hi Charleston,

A man after my own heart, ie yo have cojones.

Hi Raja,

Beethoven and Napoleon met, and had democracy as a mutual understanding at the time. There was no way Hitler and Michaelangelo could have met as the were hundreds of years apart. You have to understand history, and get a grasp of the timeline, to get your mind into perspective.

Hi, Andrew,

The perspective on Napoleon and Beethoven, is that Napoleon was probably the best planner ever, however, he needed a person to control him. Beethoven understood him well, in the democracy he was trying to gring to it’s feet. Can you imagine something like trying to bring democracy to the world, and the downtrodden masses still being used as peons to fight you, what is the point, whoever you are, you need to go back and rethink, unfortunately, Napoleon declared himself the Emporor, and spoilt his friendship with Beethoven. The whole matter revolves around conviction, to what you are trying to achieve, and therein lies the answer!

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Fri, 2005-08-12 19:35
#101
Andrew Flowerdew
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Charleston,

The rights of the individual may be a wonderfull thing to debate but have nil relevance to any rights that may exist between parties to a construction contract.
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Fri, 2005-08-12 09:41
#102
Andrew Flowerdew
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Guess that depend what country you live in!
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Fri, 2005-08-12 00:04
#103
Charleston-Joseph...
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Hi guys,

Do you know that Napoleon was a product of the French Revolution. And..

the French Revolution produce the Declaration of RIGHT OF MAN. And..

The Rights of Man produce some sort of relevance to the topic at hand as quoted

"4. Liberty consists in the freedom to do everything which injures no one else; hence the exercise of the natural rights of each man has no limits except those which assure to the other members of the society the enjoyment of the same rights. These limits can only be determined by law."

I hope this will ring bells.

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Sun, 2005-08-07 22:44
#104
Raja Izat Raja Ib...
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Hi Philip,
I also like to know, why must Napoleon and Beethoven?, Why not Hitler and Michael Angelo......this is somthing intresting and make me think....why?
regards
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Sun, 2005-08-07 17:36
#105
Andrew Flowerdew
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Hi Philip,

I agree we all need to learn from past mistakes, our own and that of others - and partly this is what this forum allows us to do.

If you would please elaborate further on Napoleon and Beethoven so that I might be able to use it’s relevance in my work I’d be very gratefull.
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Sun, 2005-08-07 13:28
#106
Philip Jonker
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Hi Andrew, you seem tto suffer from tunnel vision
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Sun, 2005-08-07 13:26
#107
Philip Jonker
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Hi Andrew,
If you do not understand the mistakes of the past, how do you want to plan the future?
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Sat, 2005-08-06 18:04
#108
Andrew Flowerdew
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Philip,

Well I have to admit I don’t know about the relationship between Napoleon and Beethoven or the end of it - and if I die not knowing, I don’t think I’ll lose any sleep between now and then.

I do know about the job I have to get up and do on Monday morning however, so I’ll concentrate on that and get that bit of life right before worrying about the rest.
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Fri, 2005-08-05 15:08
#109
Philip Jonker
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Charlestone JO,
Your reply was great, and kick ass in this discussion. Come lets give them helll
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Fri, 2005-08-05 15:02
#110
Philip Jonker
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Hi Chris,

Your comments are greatly appreciated, as this is the point I was trying to raise is open discussion within the forum, Why are "WE" discussing only the smaller issues in the world? After all we are the planners! There is something fatalistic here.
Pro-activity is the answer. Take a step back, and think about Napoleon Bonaparte, and his achievements, at the end of the day NIL.
What is your dream in life? And ask yourself this question.
Do you know of the relationshio between Beethoven and Napoleon? And the end of the relationdhip?
If you do not know the answers admit it, however, if you do carry on with the comments.
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Thu, 2005-08-04 02:18
#111
Chris Oggham
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Philip,

I know we’ve had our differences in the past, but please believe me when I say that no-one is putting you on trial; there is no jury. The sole purpose of the Moderators is to ensure that the rules of the forum and guidelines for posts are followed. They have to ensure that people using the forum are not offended by anything posted on the forum, which of course means that sometimes they have to edit or delete posts.

There are some people who, having had a post edited or deleted, would react unfavourably and, if the Moderator’s identity was known, would attack them through the forum or the Private Mail facility. This means, however, that to avoid this possibility, the Moderator who edits or deletes a post must remain anonymous.

If a post is edited or deleted, I don’t believe that that is the end of it. I’m sure that a Private Mail (sent through PP Admin perhaps) explaining what was really meant could result in the post being reinstated with a suitably amended wording. What won’t do any good, though is saying the Moderators are uneducated, or calling them idiots, nor will saying they are not up to speed on all issues. Moderators necessarily have to confine themselves to the primary focus of the forum, Project/Programme Planning and Management issues.

You are obviously a man with far-ranging interests, and perhaps the scope of this forum is too restricted to cover all the subjects you want to discuss. You may find the URL below of some interest as it is one of a number of associated forums covering just about any subject you can think of.

http://moncom.net/moncomworldevents.asp

Chris Oggham
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Thu, 2005-08-04 01:59
#112
Charleston-Joseph...
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Democracy is the best that the world was able to come up. It is in our human heart, our desire for freedom. In the exercise of democracy, we have to be responsible and considerate with others feeling and rights for democracy. Some norms, policy, procedures must be in place to protect democracy that we treasure in our hearts. We must ensure that in the exercise of individual democratic rights, such actions shall not trample on others who also wish to exercise their individual democratic rights.
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Wed, 2005-08-03 13:26
#113
Philip Jonker
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It is interesting what is going on in the world, obviously you guys and the moderators are not following it.

I will shut up the day you are up to speed on all the issues, and will not be silenced by uneducated moderators, who do not have the decency to put their names to the deletions,

Obviously, I am open to attack, but that does not mean I am wrong.

Where is the justice, Juries consist of peers, normally more than ten of them, and not one dictator (Moderator) who is somebody who does not have to give his name or credentials. Maybe the moderator is one of those who flew over the Cuckoo’s nest, or just some plain idiot who got in at the right time?

Delete this at your peril:-)
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Sun, 2005-07-17 12:36
#114
Philip Jonker
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As for you Bernhardt,

[edited by moderator]
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Sun, 2005-07-17 12:29
#115
Philip Jonker
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As for you Ogham,

[edited by moderator]
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Sun, 2005-07-17 12:26
#116
Philip Jonker
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As for you Andrew,

[edited by moderator]
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Sun, 2005-07-17 12:22
#117
Philip Jonker
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Hi Vishwas,

[edited by moderator]
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Sun, 2005-07-17 12:10
#118
Philip Jonker
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Hi guys,

You which all agree, to back totalirinism, why are you not talking about Robert Mugabe for instance? You guys talk about disagreeing with me, and are all in agreement with dictatorshop, however you have been proven wrong by the world at large. You claim to be some of the important minds is the world, however you disregard the worlds problems. Think for yourselves and stand by your ideas, I am not a Maoist or some radical thinker, just plainly a democratic person. It is interesting to see the reactions I elicited. You guys need to think a bit, as it seems you don’t.

Regards
Philip
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Thu, 2005-07-14 06:12
#119
Andrew Flowerdew
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I agree with the majority, an even and reasonable hand is used by the moderators for the benefit of all.

As for the case Philip quotes (protected job) - I think the moderators should send him his comments as his thoughts are not quite my recollection of the events.
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Thu, 2005-07-14 03:08
#120
Chris Oggham
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Hi Guys,

I agree completely with Vishwas and Shahzad. Any democracy has to have standards to indicate whether remarks or actions are acceptable or unacceptable. In society these are laws, in this forum they are the rules and guidelines.

The moderators who uphold these rules and guidelines have a pretty thankless task which, from what I have seen, they perform firmly without being heavy-handed, and impartially. I am extremely grateful to them for their hard work in a task which must at times be rather irksome and frustrating.

Chris Oggham
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Thu, 2005-07-14 02:54
#121
Shahzad Munawar
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This sentence is comprehensive in its meanings:

"if somebody is not satisfied with the proceedings of this planet, he / she has all right to refrain from any involvement here."

So no further comments.
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Thu, 2005-07-14 02:48
#122
Vishwas Bindigana...
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I totally disagree with Philip. In contrast to what he has opinionated, I express my gratitude and appreciation in putting together a great web-site like this as follows -

1. By allowing a free discussion forum within the normal constraints of proffessionalism and decency, the Planning Planet team has set an example of righteous democracy. Also, by establishing a web-site such as this, all frontiers have been erased and, "Planning is just a Click away"!

2. The fundamental principles of Freedom of Speech / Expression is encouraged here. This does not mean the web-site users have the right to abuse the Freedom of Speech / Expression of others. The PP team understands this and has laid down certain norms or rules to aviod misuse or abuse. Also, knowledge and experiance sharing is allowed but not misused / abused.

3. Planning is surely for "Thninkers". But, thinking is not necessarily limited to planning. You cannot put whatever you think here in this forum.

4. All Moderators do have names. It would be appreciable if the PP Admin highlights how Moderators are elected / nominated.

5. And, if somebody is not satisfied with the proceedings of this planet, he / she has all right to refrain from any involvement here (democratically speaking).

6. PP, KEEP IT UP!

Rgds,

p.s. - Have I appreciated u guys too much?
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Wed, 2005-07-13 15:12
#123
Bernard Ertl
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Philip, any posts which are in violation of the forum rules may be edited or deleted as appropriate. If you are finding that your posts are being censored, I would suggest you consider how they violated the forum rules first.

The moderators (including the PP Admin) are saving and reviewing posts which are edited and/or deleted. I can assure you that there is no "cowboy" moderator with an agenda against you.

Bernard Ertl
eTaskMaker Project Planning Software
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