Mark,

Physical PC doesn’t tell how far you are through the job, it tells you how much of the required effort has been expended.

Duration PC tells you how far through the job you are. (i.e duration)

To argue about which is best is pointless.
Each type has its place, duration is good for linear activities such painting a wall and physical is good for other things, such as activities that may require more effort upfront but cannot be claimed as finished until a small thing is done at the end of the duration.

The important thing is that the planner understands what percentage the workforce are telling him/her.

I have tried to explain the difference to engineers, but they just look at me all weird and sheepish.

An good planner spends 30% of his time on the computer and the other 70% correctly translating the responses of others.

Oliver

To any new members reading this thread,

Charlie (Sensei) is not a successful PM consultant.

He isn’t even a successfull data entry clerk.

Uly,

I totally disagree with you. Play with your P5/ P6 and using combination that I just mentioned and you will find that durations, remaining duration and At complete are both updatable. There’s a lot of combination that you can used to automate update on other related fields.

For your more accurate information please refer to your PM Reference Manual.

To have a clearer view of the arguments based on your cited example regarding Painting.
Qty = 100SM, OD = 10 day = 80hrs = 8 hrs/day
Actual Progress = 40hrs, 20SM

As a experience planner, after the progress update is done which of the following are the proper presentation of the schedule update and why?

a)     % Physical = 20%, OD = 10 day, Remaining Duration = 5 days, At completion = 10days,Budget Units = 80hrs, Actual Units = 40hrs, Remaining Units = 40hrs, At completion units = 80hrs
b)     % Duration = 50%, OD = 10days, Remaining Duration = 5 days, At completion = 10days, Budget Units = 80hrs, Actual Units = 40hrs, Remaining Units = 40hrs, At completion units = 80hrs
c)     % Duration = 20%, OD = 25days, Remaining Duration = 20 days, At completion = 25days, Budget Units = 80hrs, Actual Units = 40hrs, Remaining Units = 160hrs, At completion units = 200hrs
d)     None of the above


Charles,

Thanks for your concerned but emotion is not involved on this issue. One of my trainie raised this question that where I explained the logic and uses of % duration type and its importance on the schedule.

Regards,
Rodel

Rodel,

Your statement:
Ex: Duration Type = Fixed Duration and Units combined with Duration % complete type.
These setting synchronise the remaining durations to % Duration Type and actual units which allow the user/ planner have an automatic update on the % duration field and Actual unit field when remaining duration change.

You mean in P3.I agree, that’s it becuase P3 tool is not so refined and not completely developed, unlike the P5 or the new release P6 .

In P5, when your % complete set-up is in duration ,you cannot enter datas in both variable ( % and Dur.) . Possible only to Physical % .
Uly

Uly,

Thanks for the response but you’re not answering the questions arise from your statements.

“Using % duration type is stupid”

I agree with you that Design and Engineering can be measured as “AGREED” by physical weighted percentage but not quite correct because the basis of measurement are still durations by months, weeks, days or hours as used for budgeting. Drawings can be measured by quantities but specification, data analysis, approval and major design activities are measured by duration. For example Management and Staffs is duration base which used when preparing a bid or estimate for budgeting same for equipment and small tools etc…. Those are present within the duration of the project which normally estimate by month, days or hour and or durations.

A good example is a planner for the project: How do you measure the planner within the duration of a project? Can they be measured as “Agreed stages/ parameter” or Physical progress?

Again as for your example for painting works: As an experience planner or should I say as qualified planner, it is their responsibility to update the remaining durations to reflect the actual progress and each trend/ productivity to have a correct duration progress and not just entering 50% duration complete on the % duration field. Planner responsibility is to reflect the correct estimated remaining duration based on the current trend/ productivity of the task.

Karim state exactly the point that we are trying to portray where % complete type are only progress indicator and planner have options to use defending on the case to case basis or available information when the baseline schedule was done. Again it is not a perfect science and one of the major responsibilities of a planner is to reflect the actual scenario and update as required to envisage a correct status of the project.

For my understanding the selection of % complete type or progress indicator options on the planning tools like primavera is for planners comfort specially when combining with the correct Duration type and synchronisation of related fields when updating the progress.

Ex: Duration Type = Fixed Duration and Units combined with Duration % complete type.
These setting synchronise the remaining durations to % Duration Type and actual units which allow the user/ planner have an automatic update on the % duration field and Actual unit field when remaining duration change.

Open for suggestion, comment…
Rodel

Hi all,

Progress % complete whether units, duration or physical are just indicators.
Assessing progress can be done used more than 1 method, ie. cost, activity duration, manhours, physical quantities, ..

Adapting any method in the assessment of your project progress will not lead to a project failure, the most important thing from my POV is to use a method which is:
1- Logical.
2- Can be derived using the data you have at the beginning of the project.
You should also adapt this method till the completion of the project.

Regards,
Karim

In my opinion, the initial settings for a certain program / schedule has to be agreed before even trying to run that schedule. There are options to consider and the parties involved must evaluate on which option will best fit their requirements. Whether it is based on duration, cost, resource units, physical etc., as long as you got a measuring tool that was set-up and agreed that would give you a figure to report on...i think it’s fair. I don’t believe that accuracy of calculating percent progress lies only on one of the mentioned options.

Uly, how are you?

Rodel;

The two examples you site - design and procurement, lend themselves quite easily to earned value. Both have deliverables - drawings and purchase orders. Both have measurable steps - start, review, issue for approval, incorporate vendor data, isssue for construction, as-built (not recommended); material requisition, rfq, bid tabs, issue po. Each step can be assigned a value in hours. As each step is accomplished those hours are measured against hours expended. The step can earn partial credit up to the amount budgeted for the step - no more.

I harp on this because we are brought back to why projects fail. With inadequate information (project controls), the project manager is unable to respond quickly to a worsening situation. Without data he is blind. Blind men cannot lead.

Elasped time is no measurement. If you cannot measure an item, you cannot control it. You make no attempt to control level of effort functions (project management, for example) because they generally have little impact on the outcome of the project. Controllable items do.

Hi uly,

Sorry you’re not striking anything. I just want to correct your wrong statement for the sake of new planners. In addition regarding to your example, If you are an expert/ experience planner you should update your remaining duration based on the trend to have a correct duration percent complete and not just accepting the default and having a 50% duration complete because from the example given, 5days remaining durations (40Hrs) are not possible to complete the task.

Rodel

Hi Rodel ,
Maybe i have striked your ego. i would answer you then, im just busy right now.
It’s a very interesting conversation,anyway..
Uly

Hi Adrian,

The concept of using % duration has remained a nightmare.

Take this simple example;
Suppose you have a task of 100 sq.m. painting work, then let us say 80 MH to complete the job,in 1 painter @ 8 hr/day = 10 days to complete.

Then, assuming you have consumed 40MH , which is equal to 5 days . You then say the duration % complete is 50 % do you agree?. OK

Whereas, the actual % complete in Physical is only 20 sq.m which is 20% in physical status, then I would ask you. which one is the correct status of the project???.

In other words, we can say 100% complete duration = 40% physical, assuming the trend is constant.

Physical % is more accurate and convinient if based on performance index to earn value approach.

In fact, sad to say that in P3 some can manipulate and abuse the use of autocost rule that violates the true meaning of planning..

Uly

Hi Anoon how are you ? someone feels falling...anongbalita dyan..

Is there a way to stop receiving notification emails on this subject?

It fails; because planners failed to use the right unit of measurements.
What I want to say is , most planners use duration % complete , and keeps on sitting inside thier office until the duration consumes. Instead use % physical
This type of measurement(%duraton) has no-way in my practice , which I considered it Stupid....

A farmer named Clyde had a car accident. In court, the
trucking company’s fancy lawyer was questioning Clyde.

Didn’t you say, at the scene of the accident, ’I’m fine,?"
asked the lawyer.

Clyde responded, "Well, I’ll tell you what happened. I had
just loaded my favourite mule, Bessie, into the..."

"I didn’t ask for any details", the lawyer interrupted. "Just
answer the question. Did you not say, at the scene of the accident, ’I’m
fine!’?"

Clyde said, "Well, I had just got Bessie into the trailer and
I was driving down the road...."

The lawyer interrupted again and said, "Judge, I am trying to
establish the fact that, at the scene of the accident, this man told the
Highway Patrolman on the scene that he was just fine. Now several weeks after
the accident he is trying to sue my client. I believe he is a fraud. Please
tell him to simply answer the question."

By this time, the Judge was fairly interested in Clyde’s
answer and said to the lawyer, "I’d like to hear what he has to say about his
favourite mule Bessie".

Clyde thanked the Judge and proceeded. "Well as I was saying,
I had just loaded Bessie, my favourite mule, into the trailer and was
driving her down the highway when this huge semi-truck and trailer ran the stop
sign and smacked my truck right in the side. I was thrown into one
ditch and Bessie was thrown into the other. I was hurting real bad and didn’t
want to move.

However, I could hear ole Bessie moaning and groaning. I knew
she was in terrible shape just by her groans. Shortly after the accident a Highway Patrolman came on the
scene. He could hear Bessie moaning and groaning so he went over to her. After
he looked at her, and saw her fatal condition. He took out his gun and shot
her between the eyes.

Then the Patrolman came across the road, gun still in hand,
looked at me, and said, "How are you feeling?"

"Now what would you say?

Just thought i’d lift the mood in this room !!!!

CHIS,

YOU MEAN YOU LOVE ME???

YOU BECOME A HOMO

as in Homo Sapien,

I CANT BELIEVE IT.

Charlie,

I only post such replies because I fear that some of the people that are new to PPlanet might mistakenly think you know what you’re talking about.

Hi Karim,

Thank You.

You save lots of soul.

TO Chris and to some extent to Oliver,

Your hatred to me only show your level.

I dont have to waste my time with your post.

Also please don’t waste your time with my post.

It is not for both of you anyway.

This draw the line.

Cheers,

Sensei.

Hi Oliver,

I couldn’t agree more. This time, though, I think it could be a little more serious, Charlie has taken to calling himself Sensei (when he spells it right) Sensie (when he doesn’t).

I could say unkind things like he’s delusional, believing he has abilities that he clearly doesn’t, but somehow I can’t. I get this picture of Charlie instructing his project team to call him "Sensei" and I imagine the reaction of a team of British brickies and I fall about laughing. They’d call him something alright, but it wouldn’t be Sensei - I wonder if Planning Planet could offer a prize for the most imaginative suggestion?

Chris Oggham

Typical Charlie, can’t answer a straight question.

Three interesting posts; but what happened to Charlie/Joseph and who is Sensie/Sensei?

Chris Oggham

F..K around with the client

there is a say
" YOU FAIL TO PLAN YOU PLAN TO FAIL "
that’s simple

Plan for a year or more!

Not work your plan!

Your Project Will Be!!

Unsafe
Late
Over Budget

You will have to get everyone to buy into the plan. Show them why they need a plan. This is one way to Fail a Project! You would be suprised how many time I get asked why do I need a plan, I been doing this for 20 years.

Thanks Rodel, for reminding me of the basic reasons for planning.

Rodel Marasigan wrote: Ref: Project Management - A Systems Approach to Planning, Scheduling, and Controlling, Eighth Edition

There are four basic reasons for project planning:
 To eliminate or reduce uncertainty
 To improve efficiency of the operation
 To obtain a better understanding of the objectives
 To provide a basis for monitoring and controlling work

Rodel,
In your list, not even a seasoned planners could follow those rules,
So what is the use to have planners? NOTHING!!, CONSIDERED AS FUTILE.

for me, it all rest back to decisions; if the desicion maker decided to use a bad plan, then the project fails; otherwise it won’t

Adding to what I had said, Cost Overruns possible due to Scheudule Overruns in the form of very high IDC (Interest During Construction).

Dear Oliver,

I had specifically noted let us first note in the first posting to this thread that let us first note the metrics or measurable parameters or identifiable signs for a project tending towards failure or failed. We can go into the specifics later.

I have not downloaded the information. I have only taken the liberty to extrapolate the ratios which we normally use to monitor the performance of our projects.

The threads asks why do projects fail.

A schedule variance just indicates that you are late, it doesn’t explain why.

Low productivity tells you that staff aren’t producing to the level of effort budgeted in the baseline, but it doesn’t explain why.

A bad planner can tell tou there is a delay.

An average planner can tell you the reason for a delay.

A good planner would know the reason for the delay and would suggest a course of action.

Plzzz note the corrections:

Metrics for project failure as follows:

1. Milestones Achievement Ratio (MAR) [Actual No. of Milestones achieved / Planned No. of Milestones Achievement] is consistently less than 0.70 (throughout 75% of the project duration) and can’t be made up in the remaining 25% duration in spite of crashing the project.

2. Schedule Variance (SV) [BCWP – BCWS] « 0 or < 0 ie., behind schedule consistently (throughout 75% of the project duration) and can’t be made up in the remaining 25% duration in spite of crashing the project.

3. Cost Variance (SV) [BCWP – ACWP]] « 0 or < 0 ie., overrun by more than 33% and the because of the overrun the project shall never have an NPV > 0 and / or IRR (Actual) shall be sufficiently less than IRR (projected).

4. Efficiency Ratio (ER) [Actual percent completion factor / Planned percent completion factor] is consistently less than 0.70 (throughout 75% of the project duration) and can’t be made up in the remaining 25% duration in spite of crashing the project.

5. Staff Productivity Ratio [Total Value of Work Done (including materials used in project) / Avg. no. of Engg. & Supervisors on site] is consistently less than USD 0.01 million (throughout 75% of the project duration) and can’t be made up sufficiently to finish the project in the remaining 25% duration.

Machine Downtime Ratio etc. can further included as a metric.

sory, I mean Johny, not Jhonny...

Jhonny,

"Planning was performed by a planning group"

Maybe you should give them a break!!!


Regards,


Arman

-unproper and unsufficient design during design stage.
-selection for unsuitable contractorduring tender stage.
-during construction stage:-
-lack of resources.
-lack of professional staff.
- bad management.
-no proper following up.
- no actions.
- slow actions.
- physical obstructions.
-adversed climatic conditions.

Dear All,

Can we list down the specific metrics based on which we can say that a project has failed or is heading towards failure?

Rgds

Hi Guys,

You seem to have covered quite a lot of ground already, but I don’t think anyone has mentioned projects which never should have been started int the first place. Usually these are a ’dream’ or an item on the wish list of a member or members of the Board of Directors.

These ’projects’ are usually not essential, frequently really bad ideas and sometimes downright disasters. It can be obvious, right from the start, that they are going to fail but because a member of the Board is pushing them, they get first call on resource. It’s not until a lot of money has been wasted that somebody with sufficient clout realises "Oops, we shouldn’t be doing this" and pulls the plug.

Chris Oggham

Well this most certinly will be an interesting discussion thread to read indeed.

From my small amount of experience (6 years), the top ones are, in no particular order;

The management (PM’s, Resource managers, Maintenance managers, the whole lot of them), making rash decisions without considering the consequences.

The project team members doing extra work because they’re not fully across the scope of their work package.

The customer trying to slip in some extra scope, and the management allowing it so they appear to be helpful, and then the customer expecting this everytime. (and the management doing it everytime, then questioning why we’re 3 times over budget)

People thinking that planning is only a nice to have or worse still a hinderence to propper project management.

The fact that when you look at the mathematics in the schedule, 1 plus 1 will always equal 2 unles your the PM and then you want to make it equal ’E=MC2’, because that’s how fast you will have to work to recover the schedule because they weren’t familiar with the scope, specs, requirements or anything else to do with the project when they told the customer they could have the whole thing designed, built, installed & commissioned a week from Thursday just before lunch.

Then we could talk about lead times on equipment, and the PM that always asks why there is a lag of 6 months on ther logic between ordering and receiving the bits and pieces.

Then someone inevitably brings up the fact that we don’t have enough resources. Of course this is explained away by the fact that everyone always over estimates the jobs, so they put graduate engineers on the job and expect the design to get through on the first pass.

So as Dennis said in his post ’This should be a great discussion/rant’

So lets see what else we can list

Andy

This should be a great discussion/rant.

For me, it has always been the project manager. Sure, there can be flawed estimates/budgets, unrealistic expectations, and foolish clients, poor communication, but the PM is ultimately responsible. He has to address those issues. It is his team, his project.