Its good to read such an inforamtional post on event planning. I agree what "Angela west" has said.

Hello Gary, Its interesting to knew about your post.It seems that you have keen interest in event planning.According to me,To become a successful planner in starting stage few basic things keep in mind.
1)Flexibility
2)Time management
3)Passions
4)Planning should be out of the box.for that think out of the box(new thoughts,ideas)
5)Communication skills,presentation skills.Last but not the list is communication but as you explained above you have a degree in communication . So you hav eto work on basic 4 points. All the best . If you have other queries then please ask. All the best
I think this will help you for growing your business.

 

 

Thanks

Angela West

good read! :) anymore views??...

Philip
Before you can have the mindset you must have a mind which is open to others opinions.
Software is like a car. It is not essential to drive a car to reach your destination just makes the journey easier.
I fully agree with your comments regarding some have it and some do not. To use an Irish analogy
"you can take the mind out of a planner but you cant take the mind out of planning" however good your software is.
Best regards
Clive

Philip,

You are spot on. I totally agree.

Cheers,

Gary

At present it is a "Planners Market" so guys and gals make hay whilst the shine suns or at least until the next global recession casts a few shadows.
Sun? Now whats that again?

Gwen Se
I think a degree goes out of the window if you have been a planner with a good career progression for say 10 years your CV does the talking.
Clive

Hi Gary,

What i mean was if you look at most ads you will see that they are looking for experience and educational credentials.

I did not say they’re not looking for experience. I’m just reacting to the argument of Oscar that employers does not benchmark education but experience only. Do you believe what oscar said?

I stand by my observation that employers are asking for educational credentials also. i don’t want to argue with you on the numbers because both of our views remains as views, with no scientific proof.

Cheers,
Se

Gwen,

Please don’t tell me the TV programme I referred to is the project you are working on – that would be too funny! Oh well, I guess you are right – prefabricate it somewhere else and sail it up. I can see what you mean about pressure is on to meet sailaway day and the impact that must have on trying to get everything finished before then – finishing at sea must not be fun.

As you say, frantic – great fun – just like the project I am working on at present. A big job for London with an immovable deadline in 2012!! Different from working in the cold with tight commercial deadlines, but working with the Government has its challenges too.

Cheers,

Gary.

Now i reckon Gwen is a real planner you can smell the words she writes
[Deleted by Moderatoe]
Oscar

Se
on the subject of lawyers
they have no degree in planning or construction generally but often reprsent the most complex cases in court.
Often when the so called experts with qualifications have [Deleted by Moderator.]
Any thoughts on how they do that???????????
Clive

Hi Chris,

Well that’s the signal I got(underestimating value of education) from the previous posts maybe you should ask the others like Clive and Oscar.

I partially agree with you that employers are not totally looking for graduate people. But if you look at most ads, you can see from the job openings that they are looking for people with degree and sometimes with masteral degree, PMP, PSP cert. etc. etc. I’m not saying it should be the case always. But that’s reality.

I’m just speaking from what I can see. Just look around the openings in Planningplanet, you will see what I’m trying to say.

Cheers,
Se

Se, I don’t think anyone is underestimating the value of education. It’s just being pointed out that education doesn’t only take place in schools and universites. It also happens on building sites, workshops and shipyards. As for qualifications, it depends on what you mean. As Clive demonstrated in post #136, qualification means having the necessary mental and physical attributes to do the job. Many employers have found to their cost that formal qualifications (university degrees etc.) don’t always guarantee this, sometimes they mean that the person just has the ability to pass exams. Chris Oggham

Clive,

I don’t underestimate the value of education.
Sorry to disagree with you on some of the qualifications.

Se

Se
My add would read
"Well rounded person required with excellent communication skills.
Able to think independently and manage subordinates.
Extensive experience required of the planning role including site experience preferably with a major contractor.
Use of software such as P3, MS project, powerproject, powerpoint, excel etc not required as training will be provided, however candidates with this experience will be considered favourably.
Candidates must be commercially aware and have a sound site engineering background.
Willing to work long hours in difficult environments.
Degree not essential, however references will be required."

Just a thought
as Einstein said "Education is what you are left with when you have forgotten what you learnt at school"

Degree or not to degree that is the question????

As long as the definition of an Engineer is protected by degree holders, free thinkers will go elsewhere, where their talents are better rewarded. Qualifications are often established not to measure apptitude but to protect existing encumbents.
I for one would never reject a candidate who is not formally qualified, I will leave that to those who look behind them rather than in front.
Captain hook is the crocodile coming?
Clive

Oscar,

Really??? Tell that to the fu$##&& marines.

C’mon get real. Stop this argument that thinking because you have the experience is better than having a degree. In the first place you don’t know how we were trained in school so you better leave your opinion about the educational system of your country to your own. Friendly advise, keep it to yourself. it doesn’t apply to me.

Please go back to reply #60, that is the summary of my stand regarding the matter in case you have not read it.

Se

Charlie,

Your post #122.

Surely one of the principles of good management is to abandon old fashioned methods like knowing the division of work and the person who is responsible to do what work. Surely it is better to have a team of people who work together to solve a problem, no matter what their title is or what they are responsible for.

For example, as a planning director I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get the right end result. Putting people into boxes and only expecting them to do that piece of work they are responsible for stifles growth and innovation. It also frustrates people enormously.

If somebody in my team is very busy with a problem, I will offer to help them. If I had one, it wouldn’t be in my job description to assist them with doing some detail for them, or even making their coffee for them, but I would (and do) do both if it is what is needed.

There is nothing wrong with fraternization between supervisors and those that work for them. Far from creating an ineffective chain of command or leadership, it promotes teamwork, makes for a better working relationship and gets the best out of people. As a leader, I would do almost anything for my team, because I expect them to do the same for me.

As for your view that “If a person is qualified to do planning then due respect to that person must be in place” I couldn’t disagree more for as you know, my view is that qualifications have absolutely nothing to do with ability. As Clive says, having a degree is no benchmark. Respect is earned from individuals, not given because of a framed certificate on the wall.

Hopefully one day you and I will be able to agree on something!

All the best,

Gary.

Excellent idea. The originator has, perhaps, seem the requirement for pychoanalysts and gone down that route.

Regardless, any norms for construction of LNG terminals in remote locations with exteme weather conditons in a Class A nature reserve and maritime park welcomed.

Dear All

Just a reminder, this thread started as follows

ibrar ulhaq posted his questions:
"I am a graphic engineer, with a HND in computing.
I have got myself a P3 package/software, but I am not sure where to get training and how to get a job in planning!
also what the salary.. i am new to this therefore
whats the starting/ what can it go up to?
was told to get into Railways! "

Where are we now?

Philip
I am not on the look out for a job and enjoying a position as a senior-planning manager with one of the largest global project management companies, who I have been with for the last 20 years.
I wish you the best of luck in your recruitment drive.
Daya

Hi,

Forgot your name, thanks for refering people to me

To Clive,

I really feel insulted with your query. How can you treat me like a students asking me to answer such question. I also did not apply for job in your company so you cannot impose on me to answer your question.

Your question also has no meaning to me. Those productivity rates that you have in mind maybe applicable from one labourer working in a particular project. It has no meaning to me because I worked in internationa and multinational setting.

I always evaluated manhours rates base on project specific: the country i worked (PNG, KSA, MAL, etc,.) In multinational setting, i have to consider the diferent nationalities of workers in arriving at manhour productivity rates: case study workers from one country with productivity rates of XXX combined with workers from another country with productivity rates of YYY will on the average will have a productivity rates of ZZZ.

I have no choice but to disregard your question. I hope you understand.

The manpower norms in my possesion is applicable anywhere in the world including construction work in outer space (astronauts, cosmonauts, etc. working in international space station like fixing some parts of the station or someday it will be applicable when man start to construct high rise building in Mars or any plannet in the Universe.

Where to find this manpower norms: i will give a hint (ask Bernard).

I’m really sorry i did not answer your question.

Charlie

Hello to all,

Including the Aliens in Planning Planet.

Actually we can live together in harmony as long as we know our place in planning planet and living with the forum rules and guidelines. The bottom line is live and lets live.

I’m not the bad guy. I just stand on my principle, belief and values.

I really touch by the story of Gary and Clive. I keep silence because i dont want to show disrespect of the person they are now.

How I wish that this thread may end on that post where the wonderful experience this Gary and Clive were revealed.

But faith have it that we will not be sentimental and continue to rock and roll planning planet.

So, I will answer each to the best I can.

Cheers

Cive

Although I am a civil engineer with over 25 years experience, I still don’t see a problem with someone without a degree to be a good planner provided that he worked hard to achieve this. So not every labouror will make a good planner. Many who has graduated from universities and holding engineering degres are not good engineers either, but to be an engineer you have to have a degree. To be a planner you have to have the knowledge of what you are planning, that is why a labouror may make a good planner. Not EVERY labouror.

My proposal to put an end to this discussion is still open, let us be productive and useful to those who are interested to be good planners and I am one of them and this is the reason of my being here. I think I have read many great discussions and contributions (in other categories) from you Clive and the other guys who do not believe in labouror as planners. So why do you waste your time in this endless debate. No one will convince the other at the end of the day ( I may be wrong )

Gentlemen
I think this discussion is leading to nowhere, we are here to enrich everyone experience and shae what ever we have gained during our long working career.
I do request you to stop this and let us start a fruitful discussion

Regars

To Darell,

I did not set the standard. I’m only a simple employee earning an honest living doing honest work. I’m no big name in construction

It is the industry that set the standard. The client set the standard. The client prefer to have planning engineers with degree in planning.

With regards to pay, salary, etc. it is also the client that set the standard. The client is willing to pay the right price to the qualified individual.

I cannot offer you anything because im only an worker, i have no money to offer to you.

Why don’t you try Philip? or ask Philip the compensation package same as you ask me.

Yours, Charlie

Charles,

Sorry about delayed response........

It seems to me you set to high a standard for anyone to reach. Methinks that most "so called Planners" would never qualify for "your profile". Then again, why don’t you stipulate what the profile would be? The exact qualifications, qualities, experience etc..............
This is a serious request.

Then perhaps we could all judge for ourselves, if it is really worth our while applying.

Alongside that, tells us what package you would be willing to offer "The Qualified Planner".

i.e. Relocation Package, Wage, Bonus, Pension, Expenses, Car, Laptop, Phone, Promotion/demotion Prospects, etc. etc.

Then we can decide if it is worth staying with our/my Labouring job.

Respect,

Darrell

My Dear Charleston-Joseph Orbe (Building Works)

I have gone back to your posting #90 again in the hope of trying to unravel the mystery hidden within and still could not understand what you were trying to convey.

Is it another one of your SECRETS?

I wondered if your wild and lunatic ranting about colonial masters, decaying empires, history, my grievances of former colonial masters etc was meant to give offence, is so, you have failed because it has no relevance to my experience at all.
Kind Regards
Daya

Gary
When u get to Hong Kong next give me a call I will set one up on the bar
Clive

Never wanted to be one. Carpenters are better.

Planners never hit their Targets. Carpenters seldom miss, otherwise they’ll get dead fingernails...

for a break

Charleston
I am totally lost with your introduction of colonialism into becomming a Planner??
Daya

Clive,

A cross thread reference!

Agreed with Gary.

The Snr Project Manager I am working for started off as a welder. He told me that he was very lucky that he was guided along his career development. I personally think that opportunity is one of the important factor in order to develop into a planner. Without the work opportunities or the people that inspire / provide guidance, I would not grow into a planner.

Sigredo,

I have been back to posting #60.

OK, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying that you would give a labourer a chance as a planner if he showed potential, (by climbing the ladder) say as a ganger as Clive says in post 59. I agree with you.

Are you therefore saying that you wouldn’t give just a humble labourer a chance, just because they are mixing cement, or carrying bricks? If so, I might need to take issue with you on this. That humble brick carrying labourer probably knows more about how many bricks get laid in an hour than you or I would ever know. So yes, I would at least consider giving him a job as a junior planner programming brickwork on a large project with many bricks to lay.

Saying that, I do take your point – there are some labourers who would never have the education to become a planner. It is a sad fact that many labourers cannot read and write, so in that instance, I couldn’t offer him a job, even as a data entry planner.

It was good to revisit post 60, for it gave me the chance to re-read Clive’s post number 59. I am glad to see yet another planner who started life as a labourer! The next time I am in Hong Kong, I am going to seek Clive out and buy him a drink or two, or seven. We could swap old site stories with each other.

Cheers.

Gary

Hi Sigfredo,

Yes, we would accept labourers in the PEO. Of course we would. They would probably need to join as an associate member, the criteria of which is “For those planners/schedulers with less than 5 years experience in planning/scheduling, or for those whose work means they occasionally undertake a planning/scheduling function as part of their job.” As long as they were doing some sort of planning, why would we refuse them? Some (and I would of course agree not all) would have something to offer and we might have much to offer them.

Alternatively, they could join as a student member – just like I would have done when I was young, except there was no such organisation back then. However, we haven’t had any applications from labourers, but we all have to start somewhere.

Indeed we may well have members who used to be labourers. Many people do some casual work doing labouring who then go onto other and better things. I say good luck to them. Take Gwen’s children for example - she says they did some labouring before moving on in their chosen profession - its really not that uncommon. In the PEO we wouldn’t refuse membership just because somebody used to be a labourer!

Regarding your question about combining P3 3.1 and P3 ec together in the survey, in hindsight, we made a mistake. It would have been better if we had kept them separate.

Cheers.

Gary

Hi Charlie,

I know you like to keep secrets, but I am going to share one with you. Don’t pass it on to too many people though! You will need to get to the end of this posting before you find out what it is though. I don’t mind sharing with you, because it is about time I “came out”.

Yes, I am a planner and no, nobody got to my profile. I have been a planner for 31 years – I have tried to give it up, but (Oh the shame of it) I just cannot – Betty Ford tried to help me, but I just keep regressing!

Yes, I am a group board director of Mace and yes, I guess that makes me one of the big guys. I am responsible for all of our pre-construction work (planning, logistics, project strategy, temporary works, design management etc). Yes, it’s true; a mere planner can make it quite a long way. However, before anybody suggests to the contrary, I still do hands on planning! It is a fault I know – I should delegate more, but shucks, I just love planning!

And yes, I am the Chairman of the PEO. You see Charlie; I am a die hard planner. I know that good planning really can make a difference. I regularly can be seen drawing programmes and you know what – I sometimes use PM software for this and even excel! (Oh dear, yet another admission).

And yes, before other PP’ers jump on my back, I also have to admit I have also done some expert witness work. From postings in other threads, I know that the real planners out there will consider this the ultimate sin, but what the heck – I can admit it. I have broad shoulders. Just take me outside and give me a damn good thrashing!

I say these things not to boast, but to make a point. Many planners I meet ask me about my career, why didn’t I go into project management, how did I as a planner make it to where I am today etc etc. The simple answer is that I like planning and I stuck with it. As most planners do, I worked very hard. I have worked on some huge projects and I did what I am good at – making very complicated things simple (whey hey – no 40,000 activity programmes for me!). These days I am very lucky – I get to work on some of the biggest, most exciting construction projects all over the world. Hard working? Yes. Very long hours? Yes. An understanding wife? Yes. Lucky? Without a doubt. Destined to keel over from a heart attack? Probably. All of the above.

You see, something in my genes makes me quite good at joining things together with arrows. I like to draw complicated programmes to work out in detail how things should be done, then I hide that from everybody and then draw a much simpler diagram to help communicate things simply. Do you know what? People, especially clients, seem to like that!! I learnt a long time ago that people hate P3, Artemis, Powerproject, Suretrack, Openplan and all the other ways of making something complicated even more complicated. They simply want to understand. (OK, I am ranting on now, so I will stop).

OK Charlie, it’s time for the secret. Keep it quiet though……

It’s very hard for me to admit it, but …… I have a lump in my throat as I am typing this.....

I started work at 16 years old. I didn’t pass many school examinations. I started work on site as.....wait for it..... A LABOURER! There, I have said it. No more hiding the truth. You have outed me at last. . I feel much better now!

So Charlie, there it is. A labourer can be a planner.

Please don’t ever put down labourers again. You do yourself an injustice whenever you do that.

Gary France

Hello there Mr Gary France,

Are you the chairman of PEO, one of the big guys of MACE, etc. or someone got inside your profile???

As you are aware, PEO got stringent standard in accepting members. In your previous post you did specify the qualities of accepting members.

MACE is a well know consulting company engage in project management.

Are you accepting labourers as planners. Please be serious.

Hello Daya,

I dont know what your trying to reach out with the real situation of labourers with master degree.

And then, we have planners that comes from the rank of labourers.

I think what really happens is an extension of colonialism where your colonial master who is a labourer became the chargehand and eventually the planner. In my sojourn in this world, this happen only in some decaying empire. This is also the fault of some nation who really did not fight for their freedom. You just read history and the cycle keep repeating. And there are a lot of them.

However this is not the proper forum to expound your grievances of former colonial master. You are lost.

The bottom line is that labourers have their place in construction. We need them to run the construction project. They are part of the construction project team. But to make the labourers the planner is a joke.

I did read about labourers that rise up from their ranks but mostly this are fantasy, fictions, love story, example the of book is "THE FOUNTAINHEAD by Ann Ryan".

Of course there are real people that start from labourer and rise to become millionaire, influential men, powerful men, etc., but this is not what we are talking about.

Whatever happen to your labourer friends with master degree, i can only wish them success in whatever they are doing now.

Cheers,

Charlie

Gary,
Why thank you kind sir! I feel compelled to join you and state that I too did not graduate. With a robust CV, never being out of work and being able to pick and choose where and for whom I work next, I must be doing somthing right.

Saying that I frog marched my own kids to Uni and fell off my perch when both of them graduated BSc Hons. However their attitude was that the hard work was over, Employers employ me! Not!
After a spell hands on labouring which did them the world of good for getting involved with the nuts and bolts of their choosen professions, exposed to multi nationals, integrated team spirit, getting the best out of sloths and grouchers they are, at least, pointed in the right direction. No, not plannng!
Worked with Clive Spakman and John Hart ealier this year. Your name came up then.

Slange

Gwen,

Totally agree. My list of people to work alongside probably would include somebody who buys blow up sheep and anchors. Not sure about the beard though.

Gary

One thing great about this thread and Planning Plant, I know who I would prefer to work alongside and who, if their names were mentioned I would be either be jacking up my day rate or running like Hell!

Hi Se,

I think Planning Planet is infiltrated by aliens (Labourers disguise as Planersr). I know the way they post there thread, the way they make impersonating of real people.

The biggest losers are the one converted to aliens belief that labourers can do planning in EPC Project in Oil/Gas Industry or Higly built-up High Rise Mixed Residential/Office Buildings, in Metro Rail Porjects or heavy civil construction projects like dams construction, etc.

But like all aliens movies, the real heros (real planners/planning engineers) will survive the struggle because there are essential human character of dignity. And the aliens (labourers) will just go there their place in construction projects, mixing cement, excavating with picks and shovels, etc.

For the aliens go on converting other members but i find in Se a partner in our struggle. Of course there are a lot of them in PP but at the moment they just want to watch in the sideline until it is clear that the real planners will win the day and join the fray. Dont worry Se we have a lot of friends, i know i can count on Bill or Vladimir. Philip is really a disappointment.

Cheers,

Charlie

Totally agree.

Regardless of education you cant beat bums on seat site expereince, on the tools or as the planner. If you can motivate, delegate, organise, communicate, have a can do attitude and a sense of humour all in a multi national project (we have 46 different nationalities on Snohvit)that goes a long way in any planning job.
You can have a string of degrees and black trades expereince behind you, be a P3 purist but if you cant quickly scope out your part of the job, think on your feet, take instruction (and a Hell of a lot of well qualified people cannot)or a brief you are a loss.
I disagree the Planner is the brains of the project. I am sure the Project Director, Manager and Discipline Leads would be laughing like drains. I would compare the Planner as the Catalyst, capable of promoting change, adding value sometimes not.

Daya,

SECRET.

Cheers