Guild of Project Controls: Compendium | Roles | Assessment | Certifications | Membership

Tips on using this forum..

(1) Explain your problem, don't simply post "This isn't working". What were you doing when you faced the problem? What have you tried to resolve - did you look for a solution using "Search" ? Has it happened just once or several times?

(2) It's also good to get feedback when a solution is found, return to the original post to explain how it was resolved so that more people can also use the results.

Planning Engineer vs QS

25 replies [Last post]
Wed, 2005-06-08 15:18
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
I think the subject matter defined the discussion, and there is no point in running away. Any Engineer who has been trained correctly should be able to take off quantities, whereas it will take a QS a number of years in the field to learn engineering. The commonly used title for QS’ is "bean counters" ie the accountants in engineering terms. I think that anybody who confuses an engineer and a QS needs to go for language lessons, the disciplines is so divergent that it impossible to even try and compare them, AN easy excersize is use any decent dictionary and look up engineer and quantity surveyor, might give you some direction.

I think Monsieur Eiffel for instance would be turning in his grave if he had to to read the amount of manure spread around here. Try reading something like a book by the title of "Dammit" by Henry Olivier, based on Tarbela dam in Pakistan, (He also designed a few others, interalia, Aswan, etc) and then try and explain why QS deserve the title of Planning ENGINEER.

Stop the bull, ther is good QS’s as well as engineers, but get the facts right.
Top

Replies

Sat, 2005-10-15 13:12
#1
Wilmore Makonese
User offline. Last seen 18 years 27 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 26 Sep 2005
Posts: 12
Groups: None
Well these people called QSs i view them as helpers to Engineers in any construction environment. I worked for 3 years in Africa and used to everything that a QS does. BOQ, costs, estimates, projections etc and we still used to deliver our projects on time. Now i am working on a project where i would rather not worry about how to come up with an actual cost but would rather have a QS do it for me as i am too busy scheduling thousands of activities and adding more programs each day.

The verdict is we need QSs to their bit, but they are no comparison to planning engineers.

Top
Wed, 2005-10-12 15:41
#2
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
The problem with this moderation system, is that we never know what we said, hope they are keeping a record of it, as they would probably have wiped a few of Churchills speeches, if they were in charge at the time. I think it is the ultimate in censorship, and they would probably have found a way to ban any discussion on "the Lord of the Rings" by JRR Tolkien, who was a SA, and grew up with and in the same town as my grandfather. These so-called moderators are a bunch of ignoramuses, who will probably try and delete this posting, I appeal to PPadmin, who has a sense of humour, to overide the moderators. At least contain your dogs of war, et tu brute, till a few guys have read this.
This is a classic posting, hope it is not deleted, as I will copy it and paste it till all interestrd parties have read it. Will do this on a regular basis, so that all can read.
Top
Wed, 2005-10-12 15:23
#3
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Hi clive

Tell me, I probabably was also moderated
Top
Wed, 2005-10-12 06:22
#4
Clive Randall
User offline. Last seen 16 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 744
Groups: None
Dear Bill

When Donald fails he goes to chapter 11 takes his suppliers down and re-emerges with a new title he cannot be held up as anything more than a chancer

Bill is exploting his position to the detriment of others

Kindest regards

Clive
Top
Wed, 2005-10-12 06:20
#5
Clive Randall
User offline. Last seen 16 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 744
Groups: None
Philip
when i suggested a member explored other software in aflirtatious manner i was moderated what did you say???

Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 12:46
#6
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Hi guys,

[Deleted by Moderator.]
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 08:07
#7
Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 8 years 10 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas
Stuart

William Gates did not flunk out of university
he DROPPED OUT,by choice big diff.

Bill is not a Engineer, but a inventor and one of the best the world has ever seen.

Please do not hammer on him, or Donald Trump.who also dropped out of university.

They are the exception to the rule, not the rule.
Cheers Bill

Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 07:02
#8
Edgar Ariete
User offline. Last seen 5 years 42 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 184
Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas, Pinoy Planning Planet Community
Agree!
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 06:56
#9
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 28 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Didn’t Bill Gates flunk out of University and fail to graduate?

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 06:49
#10
Edgar Ariete
User offline. Last seen 5 years 42 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 184
Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas, Pinoy Planning Planet Community
How did Bill Gates created his Microsoft? Is he a Planning Engineer or a Q.S.?
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 06:36
#11
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 28 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Quote from Bill:

“Having said that, is sad but many have progressed to doing Contracts Admininstration, Contracts Preperation, Costing of a project and they have only high school and little or no University at all, and are trying to do a Professionals job.”



I think your view about Engineers is rather jaundiced, Bill. I know a few Engineers who have been to University, and even yet they can’t spell or punctuate properly!!

Cheers,

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 06:23
#12
Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 8 years 10 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas
Stewart

Philip is correct. I support him on this issue 1000 %

A QS is a Technicin, not an Engineer, whom are hired to go make physical measurment of a project.
(note:in the states,we do not us the QS system as a norm).

Having said that, is sad but many have progressed to doing Contracts Admininstration,Contracts Preperation,
Costing of a project and they have only high school and little or no University at all, and are trying to do a Professionals job.

Again Engineers are professionals whom are hired as such and are paid to do a Professional Job.
Whereas sometimes firms try to get by cheaply by submitting a QS instead of a Engineer to do a job.
Sad to say.

Having said that, have met many good QS technicans working as technicans doing field measurement to support the planing and engineering effort that i found smart lads and a asset to the project.

a time and place for everone.

Cheers Bill
Top
Fri, 2005-09-30 05:53
#13
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 28 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Hi Clive,

Thanks for your insight; but believe me, not all QS’s are reactive.

On the contrary, many are forward-thinking and are pro-actively engaged in ensuring the success of projects world-wide.

Cheers,

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Top
Thu, 2005-09-29 06:13
#14
Charleston-Joseph...
User offline. Last seen 2 years 51 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 1347
Groups: None
Hi Clive,

I agree with you, QS a no... no... in planning.

Otherwise you will end up with an open ended plan subject to claims, variations, extension of time and other contractural issues (in other words to perpetuate QS existence and reason for living).

Planning for visionary, doers, leaders or engineers IMHO.

By the way, why use those SMM, why not try CSI masterformat.

Cheers,

Charlie
Top
Thu, 2005-09-29 00:48
#15
Clive Randall
User offline. Last seen 16 years 31 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 744
Groups: None
Dear Stuart
I do not feel that anybody responsible for reactive management can have a greater financial impact on a project as somebody responsible for proactive management.
I feel by their nature QSs are reactive.
As to bills of quantities please see the simplicity of the UK civils SMM in relation to the complexity of the Building SMM. Civils SMM was developed by Engineers not QSs justifying their existance.
Moreover get to grips with 5D computer modelling and you will see where the taking off of bills is going too.
Finally QS responsible for planning Ha Ha bump
Fallen off my chair.
Top
Wed, 2005-06-22 04:28
#16
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 28 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Hi Philip,

Thanks for your clarification; I am suitably impressed.

Stuart

www.rosmartin.com
Top
Mon, 2005-06-20 13:56
#17
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
Hi Stuart,

I am not derogatory about QS’s merely pointing out that engineers have or had (in the past) the technical experience to solve problems.
As for your claim that engineers cannot produce bills of quantities, I beg to differ, as I was producing these on a daily basis in 1972, do you know how to survey a road, then to put the survey data onto a drawing, and then design the road with the correct geometrics, including the stormwater drainage, foundations, and then do a take of of cut and fill, and produce a detailed B0Q? When an engineering problem occurs on site how do you solve it, if by law you have to be an engineer. So why not understand your discipline, and it is only money at the end of the day, lets fire all the engineers, and start a new discipline ie Planning QS’s. Or maybe the Bean counting fairies.

I replied to a thread about tall buildings just now, maybe have a look at it.

No offense meant, but I know quite a few QS’s who will agree with me, and also some who have taken the time to learn, and have become good schedulers.

Regards
Top
Mon, 2005-06-20 11:03
#18
Stuart Ness
User offline. Last seen 12 years 28 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 352
Groups: None
Philip,

I am astonished that you seem to think that QS’s are only limited to architectural building works; you need to get out a bit more.!! QS’s are fundamental to the financial success of many types of projects, including roads, bridges, heavy civil works, marine works, M&E works as well as general building work.

And who do you think produces Bills of Quantities in the first place? Certainly not an engineer (or at least not if you want any accuracy!!), and a QS will generally produce a more comprehensive and accurate Change or Variation Order Request than any engineer.

Stuart Ness FRICS

www.rosmartin.com
Top
Sun, 2005-06-12 22:10
#19
Sukumaran Subaram...
User offline. Last seen 9 years 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 229
Groups: GPC Malaysia
Philip,

This in-house contractor mostly measure the pogress based on financial value ie. How much value of works were completed at site for the past month?

Usually, when the disaster strike than the contractor start to crack their head. They dig back the old files and look for the delaying events that hamper the work progresses at site and work out the schedule for EOT claim.

Basically, the Planner having a tough time with the local contractor to proof that planning is an important field in contruction industry.

Regards.
Top
Sun, 2005-06-12 03:29
#20
Bill Guthrie
User offline. Last seen 8 years 10 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 262
Groups: Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas
Have to get into it

A PLANNING ENGINEER is such,a qualified degreed engineer,
and a QS is a Tech. NOT a engineer in most cases.

(note,in the states one cannot call himself a engineer unless he is a degreed engineer-can have big problems otherwise)

In the states, its rare to use a QS, this is mostly a outside states position.
Bottom line, you can do a job without a qs, but must have a planner on large petro chem jobs.
Having said that, can see the use of QS on t & e projects reporting to the Engineer, but on lump sum projects, the Planning Engineer can do his own measures with the help of the Inspection team.

cheers b


Top
Sat, 2005-06-11 13:42
#21
ALALASUNDARAM RAV...
User offline. Last seen 4 years 51 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 9
Groups: None
Hi Philip
I fully agree with you that engineer need to concentrate on solving the problem, if possible within the budget. Or else, if left with no other choice, need to exceed the allocated budget and try to recover it from other part of the work.

However, in general, for any DEVELOPER/investor , money is the key concern. Though the DEVELOPERS/investors very much rely on the QS to know about the financial position every now and then, they tend to lose focus on the progress. However they need to remember that slippage in progress leads to losing money. So I can say that when the planning is given due consideration and serious respect is given to the schedules prepared by the planners, the QS job will become a routine. Only when the developers/PMs fail to respect the plans/schedules, they turn towards the QS. So it is the planner who helps to prevent the disease and QS plays lead rule in the curing stage, once the disease had run deep.
Regards
Ravi
Top
Fri, 2005-06-10 06:46
#22
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
What is answer if you have a problem of a technical nature hampering progres. Do you want to solve it or work out what is the financial implication?
Top
Thu, 2005-06-09 22:30
#23
Sukumaran Subaram...
User offline. Last seen 9 years 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 229
Groups: GPC Malaysia
Agreed with you on the differences for Planning Engineer and QS job scope. Basically, the nature of job is controlling the needs for Planning Engineer and QS.

As you mentioned, the demand is very high for QS in bulding industry. As for Planning Engineer if there is a necessity (ie. project value more than 100 million) than the contractor will hire the Planner. If not the Project Engineer end up doing the scheduling work.

The worst thing is when the project is an in-house project (client and contractor are managed by same management), the contractor will never bother to develop a realistic schedule. Contractor will create a schedule for the sake of contract requirement and the baseline will be pasted on wall (as a wall paper) without any changes until the end of project.

In term of academic, the Planning and QS papers are part of Construction Management / Project Management studies. Never come across that Architectural faculty is offering QS paper because architectural itself is a specialist field.

Regards.
Top
Thu, 2005-06-09 10:02
#24
Philip Jonker
User offline. Last seen 15 years 33 weeks ago. Offline
Joined: 7 Nov 2004
Posts: 852
Groups: None
The bottom line is that there is quite a vast difference in training, and normally quantities would be part of an engineers job, however, QS training from my experience is more or less restricted to building work. In most instances at academic institutions QS is part of the architectural faculties.
Top
Wed, 2005-06-08 23:24
#25
Sukumaran Subaram...
User offline. Last seen 9 years 3 days ago. Offline
Joined: 2 Mar 2005
Posts: 229
Groups: GPC Malaysia
Philip,

What is the bottom line? Planning Engineer and QS have two different entity or both can cross over to do each others work.

Regards.
Top