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NO CLAIM CONTRACT

22 replies [Last post]
Pranab Kumar Deb
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Dear All,

Does anybody have any information on a No Claim Contract and from where i can get one. It is very Urgent.

Kind Regards

Deb

Replies

Gary Whitehead
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surely just about every claim on a contract comes about because something is defective or doesn’t happen (or at least doesn’t happen in good time)?
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Sajid,

I have specified such Conditions in a simple and short term Contract (6 months) with the agreement of both parties.

More complex projects know more unknowns, and you need the standard type of Contract to protect the rights of both parties.

With kind regards,

Samer
Sajid Balma
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In another term, a "NO CLAIM" Contract is virtually a "ONE SIDED CONTRACT". It might be good as far the Contract itself is concerned, but in case of any dispute, certainly a "NO CLAIM CONTRACT" is a killer for the Employer in court of law.

Regards
Andrew Flowerdew
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Pranab,

The main reason contractors can claim extra money in most contracts is:

1. There is clauses in it that says the contractor can.
2. The Employer changes/adds things, often because the scope of works wasn’t well defined at the beginning.

A lump sum fixed price design and build contract based on a performance spec in which no power is given to the Employer to change anything and no clauses entitle the contractor to additional payment will give as close as you will get to zero scope for claims contract.

But, usually a big but, the Employer usually wants to be able change things and everything starts to fall apart. Plus if all the risk is put on the contractor, he will price that risk accordingly and so the Employer may end up paying over the odds for the fixed price.

Hence in most contracts a balance is struck as to who carries what risk so a lower price is paid by the Employer at the end of the day.
Gary Whitehead
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Deb,

The closest thing to a no-claims contract I have come across is an open book, cost-plus type arrangement.

in such a contract the client agrees to pay all costs associated with the scope, plus a fixed profit.

The client has full rights to inspect the contractors accounts to ensure all claimed costs are justifiable, and reserves the right to termiante the contract at any time, paying all committed costs to date, plus the profits.

I’ve only seen this type of contract used in R&D projects where it is impossible to fix a price or timeframe in advance, such as developing new technologies for the defence industry.

Even in this type of contract, a form of claim is possible whereby the client rejects payment of some costs saying that they are not justifiably part of the scope and the contractor insists it is.

HTH
Pranab Kumar Deb
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Dear Mr. Samer,

Thank you very much for your input , Yes i dont think some body will sign such a contract, unless the individual items are priced 2wise or thrice.

regards

Pranab
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Pranab,

What you need to do is write it down in your Conditions of Contract. The issue here is to get the other party to sign.

With kind regards,

Samer
Andrew Flowerdew
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We enter into no claims type contracts everyday of our lives. You have a meal at a resturaunt, that’s a fixed price contract, you go shopping and purchase something, so is that, you purchase tickets for a concert, etc, etc - the only claims in such contracts is if something is defective or doesn’t happen.

They are therefore far from uncommon, just the complexity of construction contracts usually doesn’t lend itself to such contracts. Doesn’t mean they can’t be used or are unfair, usually means that the price will be relatively expensive but if price certainty is the over riding objective then it may well be worth paying more to get that certainty. End of the day it’s up to the Employer to decide what is important to him and choose a contract that suits his objectives accordingly.
Pranab Kumar Deb
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Posts: 291
Dear Gary,Andrew , Sajid and Samer,

Thank you all for your inputs.

regards

pranab

Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Andrew,

I agree with what you said. Custom tailoring is needed to suite the project. That is what we do with the particular conditions. The General Conditions are unchanged.

The idea to have a Claim Free or Disput Free contracts is nobel. But not practical on expected future complicated projects.

Employers and Contractor can only revert to experienced and trusted professionals to enure that their contracts will provide them with the end product with the least claims or disputes.

With kind regards,

Samer
Andrew Flowerdew
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Samer,

You’re correct when you say you don’t need standard forms of contracts for small projects - but actually you don’t need standard forms for any size of contract, just that it reduces tender costs and potential disputes, etc if they are used as Employers & Contractors are allegedly familiar with how they work.

Many of the disputes I get involved with on international projects have used bespoke forms of contracts, often if a the client has a lot of construction work done, the contract is the Employers "standard terms and conditions" or a Main Contractors similar own terms if a Sub Contractor is involved. Usually the dispute revolves around the interpretation of the contract so maybe that says something about the use of bespoke terms!

But for some projects, it’s better to use a bespoke form of contract closely tailored to the Employers requirements than try and amend a standard form.
Samer Zawaydeh
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Hi,

Allow me to point out that you do not need standard construction contracts for small projects, or say less than 250K. That is why you have the short form contracts. Going to a restaurant, movies, or buying a car does not need a complicated construction form of contract.

When you are working on large construction projects, you have many things that can go not as per plan. Hence, the FIDIC started in 1913 and issued their first form of contract in 1957, 1969, 1977, and 1999. The 20 chapters of general conditions in FIDIC are to ensure the rights of both parties. The particular conditions are made as per the specific need of the project.

The terms regarding Variations and Adjustments are clarified separately (chapter 13 in FIDIC) and the Claims, Disputes and Arbitration are treated separately (chapter 20).

With kind regads,

Samer
Gary Whitehead
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Gotcha.

I’ve always considered a claim to be an assertion of right, but you define a claim as a frivoulous or fraudlent assertion of right. -A question of semantics!

So I guess we’ll need the original OP to clarify which definiton he’s using to properly answer his question!
Gary Whitehead
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Andrew,

You got to a restaurant and get a fly in your soup. You refuse to pay.
You order a sofa and then cancel after it’s already been made at the factory. the sofa shop doesn’t return your deposit.
You buy concert tickets but it’s cancelled at the last minute. You want your money back.

All of the above seem to me to be entirely analogous to claims on a construction contract.

Of course you don’t have reams of detailed EOT clauses in such transactions, but that’s not becuase there’s no possibility of a claim, just because the transactions are simple enough and of a low enough value so as to make them unnecessary. All such transactions would also be covered by standard consumer laws & statutes which in effect act as a contract.

I’m sure you know all this, so I think perhaps I’m missing your point?
Andrew Flowerdew
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Samer,

That is the general idea of the FIDIC contract.

Ever thought of changing career and becoming a salesman for FIDIC, lol.
Andrew Flowerdew
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Gary I agree with what you are saying but the remedy you refer to is to pay all or pay nothing, (usually), a very unlikely outcome in a construction case, (although not unheard off), and usually not an option on the table. In anycase, see last post, they are not "claims", they are your rights under common law or statute - your entitlement to with hold payment, etc. You’re merely exercising your rights. My point is that there is a distinction to be made between correctly "exercising agreed rights" and "claims". The payment of additional money by the Employer is often not a "claim", it’s the contractor exercising his contractual entitlement as was agreed between Employer and Contractor when they entered into the contract. So my definition of a claim free contract is not one where outturn cost equals tender cost, it is where outturn cost equals agreed sum of money as per the contract.
Samer Zawaydeh
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Dear Andrew,

The FIDIC construction contract has been evolving during the past 90 years.

The main idea behind the Contract is to "share the Risks" associated with the Construction between the two parties.

With that in mind, and with the help of professionals, both parties can enter into a FIDIC construction contract with reasonable risks.

With kind regards,

Samer
Andrew Flowerdew
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Gary,

I used to also, but the use of the word "claim" is rather emotive.

I’ve lost count over the years of the number of Employers and their QS’s who shout contractors are claim conscious and will never work for them again. In reality the contractors have only asked for what had been agreed, normally what the EMPLOYER had put in the contract but now doesn’t like, (notwithstanding those contractors that had ligitimate causes but tried to over inflate the compensation, as if they would!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

That said I find Employers often do not understand the concepts behind many types of contracts, often they have been recomended a certain contract by their Architect/Engineer etc but have never had it explained properly how the contract works, their risks and likelyhood of the price going up. Hence it comes as a bit of a shock when the price does go up as it will enevitably under most standard forms given the shared risk structure.

I therefore now try to seperate "claims" from "true entitlement" and use the term "claim" for the frivolous try on’s. Employers seem to respond better to this approach!!!

End of the day Employers can’t have it both ways, if they want a cheaper price, they have to share the risk. If they want price certainty then they have to be prepared to pay the premium for putting all the risk on the contractor. Sadly this balancing act and what flows from it is either not understood or ill explained to Employers.
Andrew Flowerdew
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Gary,

Or to put it another way, the disputes I deal with generally fall under two headings:

A. Claims as per:
1. Avoiding paying what has been previously agreed would be paid when they entered into the contract, (usually the Employer).
2. Use of clauses to try and invent a basis on which to get additional payment, (usually the Contractor).

AND

B. Misunderstandings of interpretation of contract terms - ie, determining proper entitlement and enforcing what has been AGREED. I don’t count these as "claims", they’re merely properly sorting out who owes who what and how much!
Andrew Flowerdew
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Samer,

Claim free contracts are possible - but usually expensive!
Andrew Flowerdew
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Construction contracts are full of clauses that set out both parties AGREEMENT that one party will pay the other party some money when some event happens. It is often forgotten that the parties have WILLINGLY AGREED that this should happen and have expressly stated so in their contract agreement.

Therefore when say a contractor requests additional payment he is often only asking for what the Employer has AGREED should be paid and after all, it is usually the Employer who imposes the terms of the contract. The word "claim" is maybe misplaced in this situation as it suggests that a party is asking for something that is not justified. "Entitlement" is a better word as all a party is doing in this situation is asking for what BOTH PARTIES AGREED should happen to actually happen!

Unfortunately either party often tries to:

1. Avoid paying what has been previously AGREED would be paid when they entered into the contract, (usually the Employer).
2. Use the clauses to try and invent a basis on which to get additional payment, (usually the Contractor).

In both cases, a party is trying doing something that is outside of what was originally AGREED and is probably better labelled a "Claim" - and is what usually then leads to disputes.

So, if you want to avoid "claims", either:
1. Don’t put in the clauses but the Employer will pay a premium, or 2. Stick to what has been AGREED by both parties at the outset and administer it in an fair manner.

Just because one party ends up paying the other party more money, does not make it a contract full of "claims", more money is paid because that’s what both parties had agreed would happen. Why are Employers, (usually), when they use a contract full of clauses that allow the contractor entitlement to extra money, so shocked when the contractor asks for that entitlement? Most of the time the contractor is merely asking the Employer to do what the Employer had AGREED he would do!
Andrew Flowerdew
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Gary,

When was the last time you went into a resturaunt and saw for example a Cl14 type EoT clause on the menu in the small print or come to that, any small print? Do you get a book full of additional contract conditions when you buy a chocolate bar in a shop?