Becoming a Planner?

Mmm lets see - Computer programmer takes on multi dicipline engineering contract? Me thinks not!



Best bet is to scour this website for intermediate planning jobs and try to gain experience in civils / M&E or EPC first. Railway projects can be pretty fast "track" and they dont really want to "train" people



Also may want to consider getting an engineering qualification of some description - or target IT planning to get the feel of the work. You wouldn’t want to "derail" your self on the first job now ?



Arf Arf !!

Se

You need to get off the fence

you are either a planner which I believe you are or you are a political animal I believe you dont care so much for quals but a lot for the common sense

Whats it to be

planner or spin

you seem to have less spin

so go for it

tell us who you are

come out like Gary

Oscar

Now i reckon Gwen is a real planner you can smell the words she writes

[Deleted by Moderatoe]

Oscar

Hi Clive,



Maybe we should be talking more on a general sense and not specific in this issue of qualifications. I understand your point about repeat requests from client.



On the lawyers, in my opinion i find specialists are in a better position to answer specialty subjects/cases but of course guided always by lawyers.



Se

Hi Chris,



Well that’s the signal I got(underestimating value of education) from the previous posts maybe you should ask the others like Clive and Oscar.



I partially agree with you that employers are not totally looking for graduate people. But if you look at most ads, you can see from the job openings that they are looking for people with degree and sometimes with masteral degree, PMP, PSP cert. etc. etc. I’m not saying it should be the case always. But that’s reality.



I’m just speaking from what I can see. Just look around the openings in Planningplanet, you will see what I’m trying to say.



Cheers,

Se

Gary,



Presently on Snohvit. See www.staoil.com. Modules were built in Flanders and the barge in NW Spain, process mods in Cadiz. You are correct. Sailed it up, docked it into dry dock, shut the doors, backfilled. Project more or less approaching Mechanical Completion stage.

Site is an island off an island about 2 hours drive from the North Cape. Stunning scenery.

Previous to this on the Gorgon NW Shelf OZ LNG plant on Barrow Island (Class A nature reserve and Maritime Park) Still in Detailed Design stage and going to Finiancial Investment Decision Date 2006. Cant build offshore, tornado alley, building on Barrow Island so they can reinject CO2 into old oil reservoirs.

IMHO modules the only way to go in remote locations and or harsh weather environments.

You are correct in that there has been much debate in putting LNG plants offshore in the States, vey much a NIMBY syndrome. Now thre is a subject to debate!



One of my main beefs is in past expereince is FPSOs, modules etc is that sailaway day is never missed (due to dockyards slots)and construcion continues en route as they play catch up. Mech completion and Commissioning get the squeeze between contruction delays and hitting the Clients 1st oil and or gas. Makes life interesting and at times frantic! Would not have it any other way.

Slange!

Se,

I don’t think anyone is underestimating the value of education. It’s just being pointed out that education doesn’t only take place in schools and universites. It also happens on building sites, workshops and shipyards.

As for qualifications, it depends on what you mean. As Clive demonstrated in post #136, qualification means having the necessary mental and physical attributes to do the job. Many employers have found to their cost that formal qualifications (university degrees etc.) don’t always guarantee this, sometimes they mean that the person just has the ability to pass exams.

Chris Oggham

Clive,



I don’t underestimate the value of education.

Sorry to disagree with you on some of the qualifications.



Se

To Oscar again



Have you encountered a classified ads that reads like this:



Wanted Senior Planner:



qualifications: No need to be a graduate of any course. Just demonstrate your ability to think.



Haha.



Are you kiddin me? Don’t go that far. Look at the classified ads in Planningplanet you will see what I mean.



How can you say employers are not considering educational background?



As much as I don’t underestimate the value of experience, I also don’t underestimate the value of education.



Se

Oscar,



Really??? Tell that to the fu$##&& marines.



C’mon get real. Stop this argument that thinking because you have the experience is better than having a degree. In the first place you don’t know how we were trained in school so you better leave your opinion about the educational system of your country to your own. Friendly advise, keep it to yourself. it doesn’t apply to me.



Please go back to reply #60, that is the summary of my stand regarding the matter in case you have not read it.



Se

Gwen,



This is not really my bag, but you job sounds like quite a challenge. Whilst I know very little about LNG terminals, from what I do know it seems to me that there are two distinct issues with the impact of such terminals on the environment. Firstly, the design of the system – open loop and closed loop have considerably different environmental impacts (depending on how close to the shore they are) and of course very different price tags that accompany them. Second, how to undertake the construction.



It seems to me that if constructing the terminals in such a sensitive environment is so challenging, that doing as much prefabrication as possible off site in less sensitive areas is the key. Ok, this depends on so many factors such as additional cost, how large the terminals are, depth of water, sea conditions, the nature of the client and their environmental position, so it is difficult to try to give an overall answer. It does however seem that if your weather conditions are so extreme, why not build it somewhere else in better weather conditions and in a less sensitive environment and then transport it – might be extreme, but it might be more cost effective than building in such a hostile environment?



Or, am I missing the point? You talk of a maritime park so I assume your terminals are at sea. I saw a tv programme (Ok, not always the best of sources, but it was fascinating to watch) recently about such a process terminal that was completely pre-fabricated in one location (Spain maybe?) on a series of massive barges and them moved many thousands(?) of miles and then positioned where it was needed.



Is this an option?



This is what I find so fascinating about planning and why people should seriously consider becoming a planner – you get to deal with issues like these. Even if my ideas are about as useful as designing a bicycle that a fish could ride, it’s the sheer fun of trying to solve the problem. Fantastic!



Regards,



Gary (What I don’t know about LNG you could write on a football pitch) France

Charlie,



Your post #122.



Surely one of the principles of good management is to abandon old fashioned methods like knowing the division of work and the person who is responsible to do what work. Surely it is better to have a team of people who work together to solve a problem, no matter what their title is or what they are responsible for.



For example, as a planning director I am prepared to do whatever it takes to get the right end result. Putting people into boxes and only expecting them to do that piece of work they are responsible for stifles growth and innovation. It also frustrates people enormously.



If somebody in my team is very busy with a problem, I will offer to help them. If I had one, it wouldn’t be in my job description to assist them with doing some detail for them, or even making their coffee for them, but I would (and do) do both if it is what is needed.



There is nothing wrong with fraternization between supervisors and those that work for them. Far from creating an ineffective chain of command or leadership, it promotes teamwork, makes for a better working relationship and gets the best out of people. As a leader, I would do almost anything for my team, because I expect them to do the same for me.



As for your view that “If a person is qualified to do planning then due respect to that person must be in place” I couldn’t disagree more for as you know, my view is that qualifications have absolutely nothing to do with ability. As Clive says, having a degree is no benchmark. Respect is earned from individuals, not given because of a framed certificate on the wall.



Hopefully one day you and I will be able to agree on something!



All the best,



Gary.

Well my dear Charlie and Se

Rather got your naughty bits in the mangle here

Seems like those that employ the people dont consider a degree is a benchmark but the ability to think is

Strange that

More from Oscar later been on R&R

Sorry about that

PS Charlie Stop Think :Listen bit like the planners green cross code

And the final point in the chain is who would I employ

Perhaps Gwen Gary Clive and Philip as they are on the lookout could advise dont think you need to send your CV,s if your name appears above despite being unwilling to answer the questions because its not an interview

Over an out

big green alien labourer.

Excellent idea. The originator has, perhaps, seem the requirement for pychoanalysts and gone down that route.



Regardless, any norms for construction of LNG terminals in remote locations with exteme weather conditons in a Class A nature reserve and maritime park welcomed.

Adil



It has been answered by many people.



It would be good if Mr. Ibrar Ulhaq could let us know if he was successful in moving into planning.

The debate has however progressed into very interesting topics. Surely you are not complaining? ah

Daya

Dear All



Just a reminder, this thread started as follows



ibrar ulhaq posted his questions:

"I am a graphic engineer, with a HND in computing.

I have got myself a P3 package/software, but I am not sure where to get training and how to get a job in planning!

also what the salary.. i am new to this therefore

whats the starting/ what can it go up to?

was told to get into Railways! "



Where are we now?

Charles,



I marvel as the norms you own.

Can I have a copy of the following norms please.



1. Construction work in Artic conditions 70 degrees N with a project that had CO2 reinjection.

2. Construction work on Australian NW Shelf Island on a Class A nature reserve. All incoming personnel, food, containers, equipment, drilling rigs, bulks,gravels and modules from Oz mainland and Far East or in Ozs case the Near East have to be quarantined in order to protect the flora, fauna and sub strata fauna. Also the norms for turtle breeding seasons, migratory flight paths for various indigenous birds, same for whales. Also any norms for the likehood of bringing in any organisms of tankers, flotels and delivery barges to such a Class A nature reserve and Maritime National park.



Many thanks



Gwen

Philip

I am not on the look out for a job and enjoying a position as a senior-planning manager with one of the largest global project management companies, who I have been with for the last 20 years.

I wish you the best of luck in your recruitment drive.

Daya

Charlie,



Your secret on how you become a planner can remain a secret as far as I am concerned. The question only arose when you linked your degree to a qualification as a planner.



I have read all your comments to help others with planning problems and queries and I have been able to assess how you have reached your current position.



I would still like you to explain you posting #90 with reference to Colonialism etc etc



Daya

Hi,



Forgot your name, thanks for refering people to me

To Darell,



I did not set the standard. I’m only a simple employee earning an honest living doing honest work. I’m no big name in construction



It is the industry that set the standard. The client set the standard. The client prefer to have planning engineers with degree in planning.



With regards to pay, salary, etc. it is also the client that set the standard. The client is willing to pay the right price to the qualified individual.



I cannot offer you anything because im only an worker, i have no money to offer to you.



Why don’t you try Philip? or ask Philip the compensation package same as you ask me.



Yours, Charlie

To my peers in PP,



I’ll stick with the basics: laborers as planners is a no no to me in construction.



One of the fundamentals in management is organizational chart, that is to know the division of work and the person responsible to work. Laborers have their place in construction.



If a person is qualified to do planning then due respect to that person must be in place and such, the person category should be changed to planner.



It is also very dangerous to consider laborers as planners. Tha chargehand will have second tought in giving instruction to laborers. There will be fraternization between supervisors and rank and file to the point of ineffective chain of command or leadership.



It is just a simple no no for laborers as planners. I know this because i was a labor pusher before.



IMHO, Charlie

To Clive,



I really feel insulted with your query. How can you treat me like a students asking me to answer such question. I also did not apply for job in your company so you cannot impose on me to answer your question.



Your question also has no meaning to me. Those productivity rates that you have in mind maybe applicable from one labourer working in a particular project. It has no meaning to me because I worked in internationa and multinational setting.



I always evaluated manhours rates base on project specific: the country i worked (PNG, KSA, MAL, etc,.) In multinational setting, i have to consider the diferent nationalities of workers in arriving at manhour productivity rates: case study workers from one country with productivity rates of XXX combined with workers from another country with productivity rates of YYY will on the average will have a productivity rates of ZZZ.



I have no choice but to disregard your question. I hope you understand.



The manpower norms in my possesion is applicable anywhere in the world including construction work in outer space (astronauts, cosmonauts, etc. working in international space station like fixing some parts of the station or someday it will be applicable when man start to construct high rise building in Mars or any plannet in the Universe.



Where to find this manpower norms: i will give a hint (ask Bernard).



I’m really sorry i did not answer your question.



Charlie

To Daya,



My secret on how I become a planner remains a secrets.



Only prospective employers, my employers, my previous employers, other persons i have personal contact with that i have confidence will know HOW I BECOME A PLANNER.



I hope you know the word "CONFIDENTIAL".



I just can’t reveal who am I to anyone, including anonymous people. I’m a private person and my only wish is for my privacy to be respective. I also offer you same treatment, I dont impose on you to reveal yourself.



It is preferable to respect the privacy of our peers in Planning Planet.



Best Regards,



Charlie

Hello to all,



Including the Aliens in Planning Planet.



Actually we can live together in harmony as long as we know our place in planning planet and living with the forum rules and guidelines. The bottom line is live and lets live.



I’m not the bad guy. I just stand on my principle, belief and values.



I really touch by the story of Gary and Clive. I keep silence because i dont want to show disrespect of the person they are now.



How I wish that this thread may end on that post where the wonderful experience this Gary and Clive were revealed.



But faith have it that we will not be sentimental and continue to rock and roll planning planet.



So, I will answer each to the best I can.



Cheers

What is sure that the definition, scope, attitude, work experience and education of ALL planners vary.

Considering Charles has made some trajectory/off the wall comments/opinions, which he quite entitled to, further clarification has been requested.



I think the majority of contributers to this thread await, with bated breath, the response from Charles.

I certainly do!

Cive



Although I am a civil engineer with over 25 years experience, I still don’t see a problem with someone without a degree to be a good planner provided that he worked hard to achieve this. So not every labouror will make a good planner. Many who has graduated from universities and holding engineering degres are not good engineers either, but to be an engineer you have to have a degree. To be a planner you have to have the knowledge of what you are planning, that is why a labouror may make a good planner. Not EVERY labouror.



My proposal to put an end to this discussion is still open, let us be productive and useful to those who are interested to be good planners and I am one of them and this is the reason of my being here. I think I have read many great discussions and contributions (in other categories) from you Clive and the other guys who do not believe in labouror as planners. So why do you waste your time in this endless debate. No one will convince the other at the end of the day ( I may be wrong )

Gentlemen

I think this discussion is leading to nowhere, we are here to enrich everyone experience and shae what ever we have gained during our long working career.

I do request you to stop this and let us start a fruitful discussion



Regars

Clive,



Totally agree. You said what I wanted to say, but better.



Chris Oggham

(Another Alien Labourer)

Charles,



Sorry about delayed response........



It seems to me you set to high a standard for anyone to reach. Methinks that most "so called Planners" would never qualify for "your profile". Then again, why don’t you stipulate what the profile would be? The exact qualifications, qualities, experience etc..............

This is a serious request.



Then perhaps we could all judge for ourselves, if it is really worth our while applying.



Alongside that, tells us what package you would be willing to offer "The Qualified Planner".



i.e. Relocation Package, Wage, Bonus, Pension, Expenses, Car, Laptop, Phone, Promotion/demotion Prospects, etc. etc.



Then we can decide if it is worth staying with our/my Labouring job.



Respect,



Darrell

Hi Daya,



Instead of being funny, name some real planners, I would like to employ them, they are not common gardener animals, but special, anybody out there who think they can meeet the profile send your name.



regards



Philip

My Dear Charleston-Joseph Orbe (Building Works)



I have gone back to your posting #90 again in the hope of trying to unravel the mystery hidden within and still could not understand what you were trying to convey.



Is it another one of your SECRETS?



I wondered if your wild and lunatic ranting about colonial masters, decaying empires, history, my grievances of former colonial masters etc was meant to give offence, is so, you have failed because it has no relevance to my experience at all.

Kind Regards

Daya

Hi Gary,



The perfect example of reply #60 is Monsieur Clive.



I hope I’ve answered your question i.e. if I will not give a chance to a a laborer to become a planner.



And I also hope that we’re not underestimating the value of education in this site. I think we’re not.



Cheers to the real planners,



SE



P.S. I should have started my answer with my 1 liner(I agree 100% with you) but did not.

Edgar

You could not have met a "Real Planner" I suspect

DS

Never wanted to be one. Carpenters are better.



Planners never hit their Targets. Carpenters seldom miss, otherwise they’ll get dead fingernails...



for a break

Hi Sigfredo

Thanks

Went back to #60 and we don’t have a disagreement

Daya

Charleston

I am totally lost with your introduction of colonialism into becomming a Planner??

Daya

Clive,



A cross thread reference!

Agreed with Gary.



The Snr Project Manager I am working for started off as a welder. He told me that he was very lucky that he was guided along his career development. I personally think that opportunity is one of the important factor in order to develop into a planner. Without the work opportunities or the people that inspire / provide guidance, I would not grow into a planner.

Sigredo,



I have been back to posting #60.



OK, I think I get what you are saying. You are saying that you would give a labourer a chance as a planner if he showed potential, (by climbing the ladder) say as a ganger as Clive says in post 59. I agree with you.



Are you therefore saying that you wouldn’t give just a humble labourer a chance, just because they are mixing cement, or carrying bricks? If so, I might need to take issue with you on this. That humble brick carrying labourer probably knows more about how many bricks get laid in an hour than you or I would ever know. So yes, I would at least consider giving him a job as a junior planner programming brickwork on a large project with many bricks to lay.



Saying that, I do take your point – there are some labourers who would never have the education to become a planner. It is a sad fact that many labourers cannot read and write, so in that instance, I couldn’t offer him a job, even as a data entry planner.



It was good to revisit post 60, for it gave me the chance to re-read Clive’s post number 59. I am glad to see yet another planner who started life as a labourer! The next time I am in Hong Kong, I am going to seek Clive out and buy him a drink or two, or seven. We could swap old site stories with each other.



Cheers.



Gary

Gary,



Thanks for the reply.



That is precisely my stand. Please go back to reply # 60



Cheers,



Se

Hi Sigfredo,



Yes, we would accept labourers in the PEO. Of course we would. They would probably need to join as an associate member, the criteria of which is “For those planners/schedulers with less than 5 years experience in planning/scheduling, or for those whose work means they occasionally undertake a planning/scheduling function as part of their job.” As long as they were doing some sort of planning, why would we refuse them? Some (and I would of course agree not all) would have something to offer and we might have much to offer them.



Alternatively, they could join as a student member – just like I would have done when I was young, except there was no such organisation back then. However, we haven’t had any applications from labourers, but we all have to start somewhere.



Indeed we may well have members who used to be labourers. Many people do some casual work doing labouring who then go onto other and better things. I say good luck to them. Take Gwen’s children for example - she says they did some labouring before moving on in their chosen profession - its really not that uncommon. In the PEO we wouldn’t refuse membership just because somebody used to be a labourer!



Regarding your question about combining P3 3.1 and P3 ec together in the survey, in hindsight, we made a mistake. It would have been better if we had kept them separate.



Cheers.



Gary

Hi Daya,



That is precisely my point in reply no. 60 of this thread when you said "But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives."



Even the answer of Gary when he said laborers can be planners. it does not stop with just being laborer to become a planner. There is more to it.



This is also the reason why I insisted on defining the job description of laborer to stop the obvious misunderstandings in this thread.



Cheers,



Se

Hi Charlie,



I know you like to keep secrets, but I am going to share one with you. Don’t pass it on to too many people though! You will need to get to the end of this posting before you find out what it is though. I don’t mind sharing with you, because it is about time I “came out”.



Yes, I am a planner and no, nobody got to my profile. I have been a planner for 31 years – I have tried to give it up, but (Oh the shame of it) I just cannot – Betty Ford tried to help me, but I just keep regressing!



Yes, I am a group board director of Mace and yes, I guess that makes me one of the big guys. I am responsible for all of our pre-construction work (planning, logistics, project strategy, temporary works, design management etc). Yes, it’s true; a mere planner can make it quite a long way. However, before anybody suggests to the contrary, I still do hands on planning! It is a fault I know – I should delegate more, but shucks, I just love planning!



And yes, I am the Chairman of the PEO. You see Charlie; I am a die hard planner. I know that good planning really can make a difference. I regularly can be seen drawing programmes and you know what – I sometimes use PM software for this and even excel! (Oh dear, yet another admission).



And yes, before other PP’ers jump on my back, I also have to admit I have also done some expert witness work. From postings in other threads, I know that the real planners out there will consider this the ultimate sin, but what the heck – I can admit it. I have broad shoulders. Just take me outside and give me a damn good thrashing!



I say these things not to boast, but to make a point. Many planners I meet ask me about my career, why didn’t I go into project management, how did I as a planner make it to where I am today etc etc. The simple answer is that I like planning and I stuck with it. As most planners do, I worked very hard. I have worked on some huge projects and I did what I am good at – making very complicated things simple (whey hey – no 40,000 activity programmes for me!). These days I am very lucky – I get to work on some of the biggest, most exciting construction projects all over the world. Hard working? Yes. Very long hours? Yes. An understanding wife? Yes. Lucky? Without a doubt. Destined to keel over from a heart attack? Probably. All of the above.



You see, something in my genes makes me quite good at joining things together with arrows. I like to draw complicated programmes to work out in detail how things should be done, then I hide that from everybody and then draw a much simpler diagram to help communicate things simply. Do you know what? People, especially clients, seem to like that!! I learnt a long time ago that people hate P3, Artemis, Powerproject, Suretrack, Openplan and all the other ways of making something complicated even more complicated. They simply want to understand. (OK, I am ranting on now, so I will stop).



OK Charlie, it’s time for the secret. Keep it quiet though……



It’s very hard for me to admit it, but …… I have a lump in my throat as I am typing this.....



I started work at 16 years old. I didn’t pass many school examinations. I started work on site as.....wait for it..... A LABOURER! There, I have said it. No more hiding the truth. You have outed me at last. . I feel much better now!



So Charlie, there it is. A labourer can be a planner.



Please don’t ever put down labourers again. You do yourself an injustice whenever you do that.



Gary France

Hi Gwen,



Do not worry, the feeling is mutual.



Gary,



Kindly answer the question of Charleston. Maybe this is one way to stop some of the melodramatic arguments thrown in this thread. Do PEO accept laborers as planners?



Maybe this will stop also the one liner answer such as "i agree with you 100%" answers. ha ha ha.



Please include also the answer to my question long time ago why PEO combined the users for P3 3.1 and P3 ec in their survey.



Let us get real guys.



Cheers,



Se

Hello there Mr Gary France,



Are you the chairman of PEO, one of the big guys of MACE, etc. or someone got inside your profile???



As you are aware, PEO got stringent standard in accepting members. In your previous post you did specify the qualities of accepting members.



MACE is a well know consulting company engage in project management.



Are you accepting labourers as planners. Please be serious.

Hello to someone,



I really dont think that you got field experience.



After graduation, i taught in university. After three years, I decided to join construction project. My first job is running a gang of labourer doing manual mix of concrete and placing concrete. I was designated the labor pusher. And i did push my laborers to the limit of their physical endurance. My labourers dont think, I think for them including the process, the timings and they follow my command. Eventually my boss got confidence in my ability to move people around and got things done that I lead a gang of trademens, carpenters, steelmen (rebar fixers) masons, etc.



The essence of my leadership was to ensure no one was idle and that all my people are dong things right the first time. And, that needs planning, planning on what to do, what to do next, etc.



For me, labourers or trademens are resources,just like me (a planner or whatever was my position before) to attain project goals. Each person got their own place in construction and each got to do there job.



Whatever exposition or brainstorming regarding labourer as planner is alien to me. I was not brought up this way.



I believe you also got your own story to tell regarding labourer as planner. You got your right to tell it here but straight away my message is "I dont agree".



Cheers,



charlie

Hello Daya,



I dont know what your trying to reach out with the real situation of labourers with master degree.



And then, we have planners that comes from the rank of labourers.



I think what really happens is an extension of colonialism where your colonial master who is a labourer became the chargehand and eventually the planner. In my sojourn in this world, this happen only in some decaying empire. This is also the fault of some nation who really did not fight for their freedom. You just read history and the cycle keep repeating. And there are a lot of them.



However this is not the proper forum to expound your grievances of former colonial master. You are lost.



The bottom line is that labourers have their place in construction. We need them to run the construction project. They are part of the construction project team. But to make the labourers the planner is a joke.



I did read about labourers that rise up from their ranks but mostly this are fantasy, fictions, love story, example the of book is "THE FOUNTAINHEAD by Ann Ryan".



Of course there are real people that start from labourer and rise to become millionaire, influential men, powerful men, etc., but this is not what we are talking about.



Whatever happen to your labourer friends with master degree, i can only wish them success in whatever they are doing now.



Cheers,



Charlie

Dear All,



Please do not misunderstood me...and I never under estimate Labourers and truly I respect them since I get also some ideas from them. I am just straight forward and honest to myself, maybe I just follow the common standard as ISO do.



My deep apologies to the labourers ,,but I cheers to the REAL PLANNERS....



Pedrito