Becoming a Planner?

Gary,

Why thank you kind sir! I feel compelled to join you and state that I too did not graduate. With a robust CV, never being out of work and being able to pick and choose where and for whom I work next, I must be doing somthing right.



Saying that I frog marched my own kids to Uni and fell off my perch when both of them graduated BSc Hons. However their attitude was that the hard work was over, Employers employ me! Not!

After a spell hands on labouring which did them the world of good for getting involved with the nuts and bolts of their choosen professions, exposed to multi nationals, integrated team spirit, getting the best out of sloths and grouchers they are, at least, pointed in the right direction. No, not plannng!

Worked with Clive Spakman and John Hart ealier this year. Your name came up then.



Slange

Hi Sigfredo



"Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha"



How can you give applause to Charlie for answering a simple question such as; How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner? With "SECRET" And the thought that his company employed a labourer as a planner made him "Vomit"?



I thought to myself "this guy is not interested in a discussion if he can end it with "SECRET"



It did however provoke many of you to comment, some sarcastically, some silly, some off the point, some intelligently constructively.



OK! I do agree that the definition of a labourer may differ between each of us.

You say, " What may be a labourer for you may already be a field superintendent for some".

Yes I agree with that statement.



I was asked what a labourer on my site actually does.

The answer would have been "probably the same as on your site".



You also ask me to firstly define the job description of labourer before I react.

Well! To me a labourer is some one whose job is mainly of a physically nature, but he still has a brain in his head and he may or may not have had an education. Most of them would not wish to sit at a desk or computer trying to work out how someone else should carry out a task, but some may and possibly be better at it then you, because you have a degree.



I have however had labourers on some of my previous sites who have had masters degrees and worked as labourers because their degrees were not recognised in this country (UK) and also their command of the English Language was very poor. I do not know if either of them became PPP planners on not.

But I hope that they were not destined labouring for the rest of their lives.



Regards

Daya

Gwen,



Totally agree. My list of people to work alongside probably would include somebody who buys blow up sheep and anchors. Not sure about the beard though.



Gary

Oh dear Charlie,



How can you say “I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class.”



As many people have said, anybody can plan. We all do it a lot without realising it.



In my years of meeting and working with probably hundreds of planners, those with practical hands on experience generally make better planners than those with degrees. Yes I know I shouldn’t generalise, but that is my experience. Somebody working as an operative on site (even a labourer!) knows far more about how to do the job they are experienced in than a graduate and they are therefore in a much better position to be able to plan that type of work than somebody who has only studied it. They might not have the ability to set out their planning work well due to their level of general education as well as a graduate might, but this should not exclude them from the chance of trying to become a planner.



I have to declare here that personally, I am not a graduate, and so your class is obviously well above mine and therefore I might not be qualified to make such a judgment.



Humbly yours,



Gary France

One thing great about this thread and Planning Plant, I know who I would prefer to work alongside and who, if their names were mentioned I would be either be jacking up my day rate or running like Hell!

Hi Daya,



One more thing. Stop assuming that I have no respect for these people. You don’t know how I work. We are just arguing on this thread and nothing else. If my arguments sent you a wrong signal, then don’t put words into my mouth. That’s the reason why planningplanet have a PM i.e. to clarify things.



I should have PM this but decided not to.



Se

Hi Se,



I think Planning Planet is infiltrated by aliens (Labourers disguise as Planersr). I know the way they post there thread, the way they make impersonating of real people.



The biggest losers are the one converted to aliens belief that labourers can do planning in EPC Project in Oil/Gas Industry or Higly built-up High Rise Mixed Residential/Office Buildings, in Metro Rail Porjects or heavy civil construction projects like dams construction, etc.



But like all aliens movies, the real heros (real planners/planning engineers) will survive the struggle because there are essential human character of dignity. And the aliens (labourers) will just go there their place in construction projects, mixing cement, excavating with picks and shovels, etc.



For the aliens go on converting other members but i find in Se a partner in our struggle. Of course there are a lot of them in PP but at the moment they just want to watch in the sideline until it is clear that the real planners will win the day and join the fray. Dont worry Se we have a lot of friends, i know i can count on Bill or Vladimir. Philip is really a disappointment.



Cheers,



Charlie

Nice one Charleston. Secret. ha ha ha and a big ha



Hi Daya,



It matters what the laborer does because most of the arguments being raised that a laborer can be a planner or somebody who has the experience can be a planner are all subjective. It’s hard to react to a certain argument if we don’t agree on the very basic job description of laborer. For me it’s quite insulting that a laborer(my definition of laborer) can take my place as planner. Please define first the job description of laborer before you react, s’il vous plait.



What may be a laborer for you may already be a field superintendent for some.



This thread has become so subjective so please let’s clarifiy things first.



Charleston, you should be on the lookout. The one mixing concrete on your jobsite might one day replace you. Easily, that could be at the minimum 100 candidates. Give us a break.



Cheers,



Se

Totally agree.

Hi Guys,



You guys can argue all tou want, but planning is a mindset, and anybody can do it. It is simply a mstter of explaining your thoughts on paper, so a labourer can do it, if he understands the methodology and the after effects, and the paper trail

Regardless of education you cant beat bums on seat site expereince, on the tools or as the planner. If you can motivate, delegate, organise, communicate, have a can do attitude and a sense of humour all in a multi national project (we have 46 different nationalities on Snohvit)that goes a long way in any planning job.

You can have a string of degrees and black trades expereince behind you, be a P3 purist but if you cant quickly scope out your part of the job, think on your feet, take instruction (and a Hell of a lot of well qualified people cannot)or a brief you are a loss.

I disagree the Planner is the brains of the project. I am sure the Project Director, Manager and Discipline Leads would be laughing like drains. I would compare the Planner as the Catalyst, capable of promoting change, adding value sometimes not.

Charleston,



Apologies, will go out and do the decent thing, will go out and graduate as a civil engineer. Havn’t got your extremely high levels of Civil qualifications. Civil being the operative word.



Sorry dont even come from a trades background. Am just an old site labourer, whom had a bit of luck along the way, and met some people that showed me how to do a bit of planning. Does this count for qualification?



What exactly is doing the right thing? You never clarified?

Perhaps you assisted or coached "the labourers" in a useful and proactive way. Brought your experience & high levels of qualifications to bear and trained them up to your level of "Professionalism". Perhaps you recognised their talents & decided to pay for them to get "Propper Qualifications"?



I know you maintained your dignity & of course the dignity of all planners, by doing the "Right Thing", but if you colud elaborate please????????



Respect,



Darrell

Daya,



SECRET.



Cheers

Dear Charlie

How did gaining a civil engineering degree make you a P3 Planner?

DS

My friends,



The idea of a Becoming a Planner in PP becomes convoluted.



I’m a graduate civil engineer and anyone below this standard and professing he as a planner is out of my class. I really vomitted when i known that the company hired labourers as Primavera Planner. The company keep it a secret but eventually I suspected something wrong and i had done what was only proper to maintain the dignity of planning engineer.



Everybody plan: labourer, masons, husbands and wives, anybody in the construction, around the world, etc. But just because somebody made a plan that someone will BECOME A PLANNER, in the real sense of what we try to propagate in PP.



Oh common guys (includng gals). Be real. Are you aware how it is to work with this kind of planner. It was hell. If you don’t know what hell is then try to experience working with a labourer as Primavera Planning Engineer in some EPC project in the Oil and Gas Industry.



Cheers and let PP know your experience.



Charlie

Dear Sigfredo



What does it matter what the labour does!



The point is the this labourer or other specialist may have a lot of useful knowledge which you have no respect for.



But to debate the point. Let us consider a labourer ganger of a team of micro-tunnellers constructing 1000m length of underground pipeline.



If you have never experienced the process of micro-tunnelling you would not know how to plan it.



But you could talk to him and glean information to put a programme.



Regards

Daya

Pedrito,



I agree with you 100%. Could you find me a job there in the Philippines? tsk tsk tsk.



Kidding aside.



Hi Daya,



Could you describe what a laborer does in your field? I’m not asking for the definition of a laborer who may be qualified as a planner. Maybe it’s better that we agree on certain definitions first. I guess you already read my definition in one of my post including a laborer who may be qualified as a planner.





Se

Dear Pedrito Salamat

Why are you so disturbed by the suggestion that a labourer can become a planner?

It depends on what you think a Planner is. Is he one that knows to use some planning software? Or is he one that understands the sequence logic and durations for the resourses he has to hand? Is he one that understand the legal implications involved in trying to get a project of the ground?

Now, you seem to have adequate experience in the petro-chemical industry and also understand the gist of various contracts, but would you be able to plan something totally unknown to you. And if not would you be less of a planner?



You could only plan, if you understand the process of this new project. You could talk to people that know the details to find out.



This person may be a labourer, who has the intermite detail about how to do it because he has hands on experience. He has planned out how best to do the job. He has worked what tools and plant he requites to do the job efficiently. He knows through the time it would take to do the job. He knows if he is able to do the job himself or if he needs more people to help him. He knows the promlems that he may encounter and how to get over it. He knows a lot more about the process then you do.



I agree that he will have to learn about how communicate his programme or plan to others and he will need to present it in a format that others have accepted as the norm.



So don’t run down the labourers of this world. It is not the job title that matters but the clear logical thinking.

Regards

Daya

Hi Pedrito,



I understand where you are coming from and I agree with much of what you say. However, the point Clive was making is that we should not underestimate the knowledge and experience of the people who do the work, or their ability to plan their own part of it so that they can do it efficiently. If we use their knowledge and experience, we can do our job better.



When you worked as a Project Engineer, you gained a lot of information from these people, by watching and talking to them, during your involvement with the various phases of the projects you worked on. You then used this information and the knowledge you gained to help you do your job better.



I think that all Clive is really saying is that we should use all the resources available to us to do our jobs as well as we can. After all, we wouldn’t leave our computers switched off and produce all the plans and schedules by hand, would we.



Chris Oggham

Dear All,



I feel that topics is getting deeper on how becoming a Planner. And I beg to disagree that labourer could hardly become a Planner and that’s really a reality.



Before I became a Planner I once work as Project Engineer for almost 9 years where I did lot of actual exposures in the site dealing all types of work discipline, starting from excavation up to the Commissioning where I have seen the start to end. While during my college days I used to study the theory of Planning - CPM method in its conventional approach. Until I have learn to use the computer particularly the Planning softwares starting from the Basic of Artemis using the prompt command until I have learn the Windows approach in most of the current planning softwares (Open Plan, Primavera, Timeline, MS Projects, Suretrak). From all these experiences I can say that independently I can able to develop the Master Overall Work Schedule in different types of Contract whether EPC, LSPB, FEED, up to the Short Form Contracts.



Do you think labourer can able to develop independently this task even we can say that he has done lot of actual exposures without knowing what Design is, Construction , Quality Control, Procurement, Technical Data, Precommissioning, Commissioning & Start up.



Come on....we need just the reality... It is true that we need some inputs from the Discipline specialist to surely organize the Plan, but the mind, ideas, brains of the construction comes from the Planner.



So do you feel still that Labourer can be a successful Planner. Big companies will surely not hire this,,,,credential wise.

Hi Clive



I am 100% with you. To give an example, I am a university graduate in engineering with 20 years experience in waterworks construction and 5 years in operation and maintenance in the same waterworks. I am PMP (recently) and attended training in project planning, sceduling and cost control. I believe I will make a very successful PM or a planner. But what counts at the end is the real hands on experience. We have to listen to people who really do the job. they know more than any other’



By the way I am hunting for a job as PM or a planner. any suggestions?



Regards to all

Hi Clive,



I’m with Daya on this one; you’re spot on.



Chris Oggham

Ride On Clive

I agree with all of your comments 100%

Daya

Bonjour, Monsieur Clive,



So, if someone works 1 year as laborer then he can be assigned as planner on the next year hmmmm???



I understand your point that everybody plans 100% agree on that but we’re talking of the position of planner. That’s why I qualified my position that to become a planner at least a laborer should have reached a certain position in the organization such as field superintendent or construction manager.



S’il vous plait, don’t assume that I did not go through this kind of job, I had 10 years of field work before I became a Planner. I will not be qualified if I did not have that experience.



Clearly, we have a different view on what should be the qualification of a planner.



A votre sante,



Se

Laborer as a planner? Give me a break. Are we talking about a laborer who brings cement to a bagger mixer or someone who mixes concrete? Are we talking of a real planner or just someone who inputs data?



If a laborer goes up the ladder and become let’s say as field suprintendent or construction manager, then he deserves to become a planner.



Sometimes I feel there are some people in this site instead of uplifting this noble job which is, by the way their bread and butter, they tend to emasculate their own positions.



Cheers,



Se

Dear All,



Clive is right that if labourers to be a planner has to educate the company for they will be the future losers or the company will fall and unprofitable.



The Planner is the "Brain" of the Construction and the focal point. Without any proper plan all work will have no direction. Planners must have the actual site/ office experience and secondly has the knowledge in any planning softwares (whatever) since concepts are the same. However, planning has the theory that planners must be fully adopted (ie. the Critical Path) and how it is generated (forward pass & backward pass). Planner has to learned also the process of work levelling or the proper WBS, then this has to be resource and level as well. Meanwhile, Planners must have also the capability to know the activity sequence from Conceptual, Definitive Design, Procurement , Construction , Precomm. & Commissioning. Without having all these knowledge it is impossible for labourers nor technical staff to develop the Master Work Schedule or the Baseline. Or if so, develop by in-experience Planner for certain that will have no any start nor ending.



Hope this will clarify between Planner, Labourer or just common Tecnical man.



Cheers to all competent Planners

I can sense discourage in your statement but belive me there are real companies in this planet that are looking for experience people to work. Unfortunatelly in the real world shit happens and is not just in construction also in the corporate world, and politics as a classic example look at the FEMA appointee during the crisis in New Orleans with the Catrina huracane Bush appointee could not develop a plan to help the community .



Do not be discourage by bad corporate desicions keep preparing yourself for an opportunity and be ready with all the skills that are require by the position, do not stay in one place always be on the look for better place...

Hi men,



Dont be to proud in becomming a planner.



this is hard for me to say but this is true.



In one company I worked, the management hired a labourer to do primavera planning. This is true.



Primavera planning degenerate just like what happen in autocad drafstman. In autocad drafting, anyone can be drafstman as long as the person knows how to punch the keyboard hard to the point of destroying the keyboard.



It will only be a matter of time that Primavera planning will be done by accounting graduate, carpenters, masons, out of school youth.



BECOMMING A PLANNER, PRIMAVERA PLANNER IS ??????



A gloomy outlook.



Charlie

Dear Alvaro Fernando Talavera

You should have no problem, as you would have a vast experience hands on. You will know the correct sequence and durations for the resourses available at hand

You will have to learn however, how to communicate your plan to the rest of the team in the most efficient way. Bar Charts seems to be the universally accepted form. There are many Planning Software Packages. You may need to ask you company which one they use then learn how to use it properly. Get some training on it.

One thing you will have to do is limit the amount of detail you may have been used to, but encompass it within your activities you chose to present your plan of work.

Good Luck

Daya

Hello guys....



I have work for 17 years as a pipe supervisor for Brown and Root in different types of proyects from petrochemical to offshore, perhaps I am burn out and want to to move to a field that could be new to me, as "schedule Planner"... So my question is what would be the requirements for this tipe of position right now I am attending University of Houston for a BS in Proyect management



Thanks in advance for the information....

Hi Guys,

The point is I would employ Darrell ODea, but he will spend a few years learning, like the rest of his working life, but he will be a happy man at the end of time, because he has done something useful

Philip



I think you are being unreasonable



Darrell expressed a valid opinion



I agree with him



20 years experience (often the same year 20 times) 3 degrees in BS something a couple of MScs and a load of assingments makes not a planner



1 year of solid education under an experienced planner however goes a long way to achieving the goal, with or without a degree and i really dont care what Americans claim to call education when you major in needlwork and minor in structures and get a degree WOT ENGINEER ARE YOU



Look at some of the un-informed opinions that are posted (and I do not consider your opinions are uninformed) so thats why im suprised at your comments.



Think you are out of order Philip



Oscar

Hi,

it is intresting subject, From the post keep on reply, its very difficult to make somebody to understand and Its show how diffcult to be a planner and how many want to be planner.

Philip,



Am not sure if it is me you are directing comments at.

My apologies if any offence has been caused, and that is meant sincerly.



I have arguements and opinions like all, but that is all.

Am just participating in some "healthy" discussion and debate. I hold no sway over the moderators, ask "them" directly yourself.



Also, could you quote me in anything that you may have found offensive? And let me know why? Perhaps I could re-explain my view or opinion.



Perhaps I am not as qualified as you to speak as a planner, that I will freely accept. But if you wish me to decist from participating in this forum, speak to the moderators, perhaps they will concurr.



Again, my apologies if any offence has been taken.



ps. I still believe that it shouldn’t take very long to become a planner. Whats the quote, "80% of the results, are a result of 20% of the effort"...



Best wishes,



Darrell (Not Daniel)

Hi,



This message is specifically directed at Daniel ODea.



I don’t know you, you are within the cintext of the greeting, and you have a serious lack of understanding the subject of planning. I have intervened on behalf of the planners on this site, as I have read your derogatory messages and you seen to have the moderators in your pocket. What I am saying is that you could not plan an ice-making machine in the Antartica. You have an attitude that is a ticket to dislike, and reflects all the negative views of humanity, never mind planners



Good luck in all your mis-adventures



Philip

To expand on my last point... I’m paid no less as a Planning Analyst, than I was as a Planning Engineer... it would seem Oscar has hit the nail on the head... What people really want is the thought processes, the logical thinking, challenging of assumptions etc etc.



Go figure...



:o)

Well i agree with Darell



Go for it mate if you want to be a planner be a planner



Brunnel had never built a tunnel but he did it, a couple of other things he did with no experience also, as nobody had experience of what he was doing. Advancements come with failure.



Was Wren an Architect Engineer or Carpenter nobody would remove the props fromn the dome so he did it himself



What about Paxton heard him described as an architect but actually I think he was a smart gardener but he pushed the envelope with his crystal palace



If you have obtained a higher qualification you can think or at least remember and spew out what you have remembered.



Planners must be able to think logically above all else. They must be able to communicate what their thoughts are, they must be able to listen.



Those of us who believe to do this or that requires formal qualifications or experience are deceiving themselves. Yes its usefull but not essential whats essential is to ask why and seek that answer. I agree with Darell 3 months and you can plan.



Go for it, link up with a good teacher serve your time and start planning, understand the process, think listen and learn.

There is also a potential distinction between a Planning Engineer and a Planning Analyst.

In my previous Post on an IT contract, I was happy to call myself a Planning engineer (Having Built and rolled out systems and networks in my previous career).

However, my current contract is within the Nuclear/Powergen sector where I have little experience. Here my qualitative input in the Design Decision making process is purely based around the Practicalities and logical restrictions of whether we are sufficiently resourced, have sufficient time, or have leeway with a given contract to take one course of action over another. I’m not able to voice an opinion on whether I believe one course of action is *better* than another.

It is this qualitative aspect of the job that suffers when you work outside of your field, the rest (communication skills, planning facilitation, schedule interpretation and analysis, EV analysis and financial performance calcs and reports etc etc) should be applicable regardless of the field. These SHOULD be sufficient should you have a strong enough Project management team.

This is the role that I would term as a Planning Analyst.