Becoming a Planner?

Its good to read such an inforamtional post on event planning. I agree what "Angela west" has said.

Hi Angela

I assume you are replying to Gary France thread in 2005.

You may not be aware that Mr France is a world renowned planner who started the Planning Engineers Organisation.

He retired a few years back and spends most of his time touring on his motorbike.

I doubt he will pick up your comment.

Best regards

Mike Testro

Dear All



We provide planning and scheduling courses to planners.



To make an enquiry about up and coming courses please email us at training@ppm5d.ie



I hope this assists the topic and individuals who need training in planning technolgy and techniques.



Regards



Matthew Edwards

good read! :) anymore views??...

Hi Clive,



You and Philip are absolutely spot-on. You can’t teach the mind-set, you either have it or you don’t. If you have it, it can be developed into a truly remarkable and versatile tool.



Chris Oggham

Philip,



You are spot on. I totally agree.



Cheers,



Gary

Hi Gary France,



My attitude is finding people with the right experience, who have planned, not as dedicated planners, but with the right experience, and teach them the software, in my opinion and a few other people involved in management the right approach. Planning is a mindset, and either you can do it , or go back to running a site. The point is certain people have the mindset and others don’t



Tegards

At present it is a "Planners Market" so guys and gals make hay whilst the shine suns or at least until the next global recession casts a few shadows.

Sun? Now whats that again?

Hi Gwen, Clive



I agree with that. With 10 years experience, degree is not that important anymore because he has already taken his route and would have proven himself in a certain field.



I just pity those who has to contend with some employers who insist on having a certain amount of qualifications aside from his adequate experience.



Cheers,

Se

Even if the position asks for a degree, there is nothing to stop you applying for the position especially if you have an edge on say expereince, working with the company or can bring some other skill the project.



I think most recruiters would agree that the degree goes out the window if you have that particular skill set, attitude or expereince the project/recruiter/client wants.

Hi to all,



This thread makes me aware that there are a lot of different types of planners. While most of us got experience in construction, it is high time for us to be considerate with planners from other fields.



Only an idea.



Cheers

Hi to all my co-PP’s,



The topic seems getting hotter and I feel that most of the real Planners are boasted by their confidence with of course years of experienced during the Construction which is right.

I used to have also that long years of experience and have learned from small, medium and large construction in all types of Construction (ie Buildings, Oil & Gas , Power Plants and even Plant trunaround work), so I can say that I am a real Planner. I can independently prepared Planning work using the Plans, Contracts, or any required provisions in all disiplines. I have learned all these things through long experience (from Conceptual to Definitive).

Years of experience, plus the patience and room for knowledge is the key factor to become a Planner.

Cheers to all and give more time to actual experience and applied those to any softwares application and the result you’ll be a Real Planner.

Hi Darrel,



Whoa, there seems to be a lot of question than answer.



With regards to small time sub-contractor, generally the construction industry categories ranking of companies working in the construction industry. Please refer to your construction industry directory. Serious contractor is a matter of opinion. Generally these are contractors that made effort to attain standards of excellence.



I would prefer to define real planners as anybody log in planning planet since by nature I restrain myself in being prejudice or bias. This is only my opinion. Of course, there are a lot of real planners outside PP. As we progress in PP forum, it is very easy to detect the real planners or otherwise.



With regards to your hypothetical case, it is not that easy in the real world of construction. I’ve been in construction for more than 20 years, and I know it is not that easy as you have written.



Maybe in other area let say, financial planner but then the person must have accounting background or .... perhaps how about ????



A Wedding Planner (like JLO in the movie).



Cheers to all PP.

Charles,



You are absolutely correct in what you say.



My limited experience, limits me only to my experiences.

I only live in "my own world".



What about applying for a job as an assistant Planner, on say a couple of small house building projects. Getting & doing that job, albeit as an assistant planner and for only three months.



Then moving on to plan a little house on that project, just at the end of that three months. Is it feasable that one could do this, by just taking small steps. By the fourth or fifth month, "The Planner" if given the right assistance, might be capable of Planning a little house build of their own making??????



Isin’t building a nuclear power plant just a small step from building a house?



Come on, it cannot be that difficult???





What’s "A Real Planner"???





Respect,

Darrell

Hello again,



You see in your own world you can think of "becoming a planner" without engineering background or with 3 months experience as a possibility. This is fantastic.



Try to imagine a person without engineering background and 3 months experience applying for for a job as planners in EPC contracts for nuclear plant, offshore projects, bridge construction, high rise tower building construction, etc.



What do you think will happen to his job application?



We dont have to tell you, real planners know.

Hi,

"Anything is Possible" but its must be logic and accept by normal person. i dont deny what u said...maybe 1:100 planners.

Cheers

Charles,



Thanks for that.

My view perhaps is - You are what you think & do.

If you think it will take you many years or decades to become a "Planner", then that is right, and right for "you" alone. And thus it probably will take a long time, for "you".



Because "You", may be resigned to this belief, does not necesarilly follow that another, may not set out to become the best Planner on the Planet within say 3 months, and achieve that.



Planning has though me personally, at least this one thing.

"Anything is Possible".



Also, could you possibly define the following:-

"Small time", "small time job", & "serious company" within this context. I am confused.



And I would never suggest trying to decieve someone in order to get a job or a role. Personally, if I have not covered or done something before, I would clearly state to the parties where I stand. But am always more than willing to search & study & learn from others etc.



Respect,

Darrell

Hi Darrel,



Your idea of "becoming a Planner" is not possible in the petrochemical, oil and gas or construction industry. The client requires a minimum qualification for planners: generally, graduates of engineering course, with years of experience, etc.



Maybe the planner you have in mind can be accepted in small time sub-contractor doing small time job here and there, but for serious company with reputation the kind of planner you envision in this forum is not possible.



The planner may bloat the resume or cv including fraud, but eventually he will be catch up and ... bye bye/goodby after 10 days employment or earlier.



Iin other words "becoming a Planner" is a serious deceision. It is life as a Planner.

Oh yes, and again, given the right teacher & the right teached, one can become a highly experienced planner within about 3 months. Most of what we lean in a life time can be condensed into very short a very short period.



The rest is confidence.



Regards,

Darrell



Planner for a week.

Folks,



Wow their are some petty high & low minded ideas here about Planners / Schedulers. What they are, whom they think they are, how well they are paid etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.



Must say thought that, I think anyone from any type of background, experience or education can become a "Planner/Scheduler". As can any Planner become anything else that they wish to become.



What is high pay? And why shouldn’t "data entry clerks" get high pay?



In my opinion we only get what we ask for, if you don’t ask you don’t get. And the various levels of pay differing professions get as pay, generally does not reflect upon economics. Salaries can be incidental.



If a "Data Entry Clerk" is making me a forture, over an average "Boss" then i would imagine that paying the former would make more business sense?????



Regards,

Darrell

Hi Gary,



What i mean was if you look at most ads you will see that they are looking for experience and educational credentials.



I did not say they’re not looking for experience. I’m just reacting to the argument of Oscar that employers does not benchmark education but experience only. Do you believe what oscar said?



I stand by my observation that employers are asking for educational credentials also. i don’t want to argue with you on the numbers because both of our views remains as views, with no scientific proof.



Cheers,

Se

Hello Philip,



I agree with you in principle. This should be the life of the planners in construction environment, EPC projects, etc.



How about the life of planners in IT environment? Can we say it will be the same?



How about the life of planners in the forensic analyst and claim specialist? I dont think so because the environment there is more on impacted schedule, reveiw of baseline schedule and incorporate events that impact on the baseline schedule for claim purposes (generally, extension of time).



Above is only my observation. I maybe correct or the other way.



I hope we will here from them.



Cheers

Hi Guys,



I think we are getting to the point here, planners are not there to only report and schedule, the real purpose should be to drive the job, on the basis of time, and make the people aware of what the problems are in getting to target dates. The computor and various software is only tools, to assist you in finding the problem areas and then it is up to you to help resolve them. When real planning in the modern sense was started (It has always existed), in the sense of pert and then gantt, computors was hardly born in that there was none of the tools we have today. Plans (ie Schedules/barcharts) was drawn on drawing boards, and the back of cigareete packets. However the people who drew them had a notion of what they were doing, based mainly on experience.



My concern is that the proper experienced people to train the right ways is diminuishing in numbers firstly, and secondly, you get a graduate straight out of university or technikon, and you allocate him the position as planner. This raises questions. What does the youngster do? He goes out and spends his time trying to learn the software instead of planning. So you end up with so-called planners who know how to drive the software, and can run fancy reports, but do not have an idea of the nuts and bolts, that is necessary to drive the job.



Regards

Shortcut in any field is not a key of success.



Work Hard in your field and get benefits of it. That is real success.

This is interesting. What we need is define the fundamentals of new generation planners. This will include the educational qualifications, the minimum software that the planner must be proficient, the planning system approach, the mathematical computations involve in the analysis of schedule and the deliverables.



Why are we doing this? I think the answer is for the survival of planners (real planners).



In project management, we did hear projects without approve schedules, schedules with doubts on how the schedules were develops. There are also cases of weak project management wherein the role of planners are subverted. There are also cases wherein the role of planners are done by site people doing excel Gantt chart without effective relationship. Remember, the world is full of project management team with beliefs that "THE ANCIENT SEVEN WONDER OF THE WORLD WERE DONE WITHOUT PRIMAVERA OR MICROSOFT PROJECT".



In other words, the role of the planners can easily be undermined. Planners need to formulate the essential of the new generation planners for planners to survive.

The point is everybody plans, and as such everybody is a planner.

The difference between the "planners and the rest of u

s the capability of putting plans on paper.

Hi guys,



I do not agree with ahmad statements, as a graphic designer still have to plan.

Dear All,



I have known a lot who are called planners/ scheduler , though I could say that they are merely data entry clerk only where most of the data are coming from the Project Manager or discipline Engineers just to establish te network. However , this is dangerous to the company especially in submission and approval of Baseline Schedule.



The Planner must have the skills to analyze the full view of the project, ensuring that the Critical Path is well define, resources is properly leveled , deliverables must be well planned (Engineering Procurement) and properly linked to the Construction activities. The Structure must be well organized including the coding structures with the proper heirachy or leveling.



Because Planners are the brain of the project that properly established the schedule and cost control.

Hi all,



First of all, the issue is that can you allow a graphic designer become a construction or turnaround scheduler? I don’t think so.



Unless you are familiar with most of the business processes involved then you could add-value to your project team. What I have seen in the market, there are plenty of so-called planner/scheduler (or inspiring to be) are not from those similar verticals. It has create an environment where the so-called planner/scheduler is totally dependant on the engineers to input datas without the ability to produce 85% of the work schedule. As a boss, I don’t that will add value as he/she is merely a data entry clerk (with high pay). :)

Guys

I agree with Philip

Planning software are tools. I choice, if you have one, is to use the correct tool for the job in hand.

Regards

Daya

Hi Guys,



Firstly of all Ahmad, the market is not flooded, as can be seen by the number of positions advertised. Secondly, the industry standard is P3, and as such that is what you have to know how to use it, if your employer is using it. Thirdly, your comment about P3 users is incorrect, as anygood planner should be able to learn any new or existing product in no time, as it is planning skills that is required, and not specific computor skills, the computor is just a tool, and to learn a new program is simple, dependant on your planning skills, "If I took your computor away, can you still plan????????? If you can honestly answer this question, you have a place in the planning fraternity.



Raja, I do not think I was asking questions, but if you need clarification, let me know. The point is really about how you think, there is on any job always a lot of experienced people, so that even i some parts are new to you, you can talk to these people and find out what their planning is. The planning mindset I was talking about is the ability, to produce a schedule on paper of all the thoughts, and plans various people, including yourself (dependant on your experience) and then being able to set up a system to figure out if they are doing what they said they could. The first and foremost ability you need is good communication skills, figuring out from experienced guys what they think, and transferring this onto paper and as such a schedule. Secondly, you have to have the ability, to get the right answers from them during the execution of the work, and finding out exactly where they are, and then reflect this on paper, and have the ability to sit in meetings and report it all. Hope this explains it all a bit more clearly.



Regards

Se,



I cannot agree with what you have said in your post #142, when you say “I partially agree with you that employers are not totally looking for graduate people. But if you look at most ads, you can see from the job openings that they are looking for people with degree and sometimes with masteral degree, PMP, PSP cert. etc. etc.”.



I was interested in what you said, so I went and checked. I looked at the job postings in PP and I read the first random 14 advertised jobs I found (14 being the number that came up on the page I looked at). Of those 14 only 4 mentioned needing a qualification of a degree. This little bit of research (Ok only a small sample) shows that generally employers do not want degree qualified planners – they want people with experience.



I have copy and pasted the requirements below for each of the 14 jobs. The jobs with 2 stars mention a degree is needed.



Interesting eh? Experience gets my vote every time.



Gary.



1. Intermediate Construction Planner/Senior Construction Planner (-The ideal candidate will have spent at least 5 years in a construction planning position)



** 2. Intermediate P3e Planner (Degree.)



3. Planner - Thames Valley (Utilities/Water) 3 to 5+ years expertise working within a planning or project controls position



** 4. Construction Planner – Residential (You will need to be of degree calibre and have 4+ yeas in a project planning environment. You will have ideally come from an engineering background and moved into a project planning role more recently in the construction sector)



5. Senior Construction Planner/City based (The candidate must have previous site experience)



6. Construction Planners/Various UK locations (experience in a construction environment)



7. Project Planner PFI/Health Sectors (To apply you need to have a solid grounding in project planning)



8. Junior Planner (You will have over 2 years planning experience)



** 9. Junior Planner (You will also be educated to degree level)



10. Claims Consultant - Central London (To apply you need to have 10+ years experience ideally in a consultancy environment and have experience with Delay Analysis and producing expert witness reports.)



** 11. Urgent - Planners (Oil & Gas/Utilities/Water exp) (HNC/HND/BSc. or equivalent education)



12. Planning Consultant required - Portsmouth area (previous Construction experience gained from a building contractor with previous site planning experience.)



13. Planning Engineer contract MIDLANDS (MS PROJECT (recent) essential, heavy engineering, ideally exposure to P3.)



14. Intermediate Construction Planner, Liverpool (3 + years Project Planning Experience)

dear philip,

i do intrested with your question its motivated question and chalenging...to me if the case like u said, i will finish my priority system to do shutdown and material preparation , inspection, and paralell with that i will do my construction....anyhow this is just general answer..coz your question not very clear ....



how was it with my answer....



cheers ....

Hi all,



Being a planner myself for almost 10 years now, I realised that somehow our market is flooded with those whose merely knows P3 and try to schedule mega projects. Recently, I was reviewing an EOT work program that is flawed with calendar errors, unnecessary constraints, unrealistic floats and best of all, no proper versioning to track changes. The planner doesn’t even knows how the calculation is made from the work program and apparently the planner comes from a computer science background (now doing scheduling for a railway project).



The point here, anybody could become a scheduler but unless he/she could add value to the whole process of project management, he/she will not go very far.

Hi guys,



Ithink you are missing the point here, ie missing the pot (piss pot). Let’s for example say you are on a semi brown and green field site in a petro-chem situation, and there is some activities you planned, and are having problems with completing due to the fact you cannot get permits, and all of a sudden the plant needs a shutdown (outage or turnaround) and now you have a gap to get these activities done, how do you plan these if you are so specialised in the scope of planning that you are either a project planner or a shutdown planners. Planners are a breed, and should not be classified into particular disciplines.

Hi guys,

Just want to share what Mr Pedrito say, What he told u guys is the true story but not just that its also related with safety commercial, contract and business. As a planner they have to know 5 common discipline activities also know how to come out with solution for activities that having obstruction / interfacing activities. The important key is how to dig the job method information.



I dont suggest sombody new in oil and gas to do live plant (turnaround)!!!...Start with platform fabricator planner.

cheers..

There are different types of Planning work operation and you need to know what specifically type of palnning work you have to establish.



Turn around planner has big differences in Process Plant Construction although both of them are Oil & Gas. Turn around planner deals mostly in the existing Plant maintenance and turn around work where you need to open, maintain, additional piping or instruments, cleaning, pre-commission, start-up. While, Process Plant construction start from Foundation, Equipment Erection, Piping, E & I work, Precomm. Commissioning & Plant Start up. This does not includes the Engineering, Procurement (if EPC Contract).



Therefore, any planning work has to study and develop according to the site condition, work environment, type of contracts. Well of course the planning software is the application tools where you need experience to have well organize construction logics.

ibrar ulhaq

To be a planner, you have to know the the industry you are hoping to plan.

Initially you could begin as a scheduler and input the date that a planner or manager sets out for you and you can learn about the industry you are working and the methods, sequence of activities, resources required, how to build up and calculate durations or find out from other sources, but be aware as you need to understand the relevance of the rate with regard to your specific project.

But as others have advised it is better to enter the industry you already have some knowledge in the computer industry because you have a better idea on how it functions.

Then you will need to learn to use the planning soft chosen for the project programme management and control.

With dilighnt application it would not take long to learn the basics and then progress to the more complex applications

Best of Luck

Hi Rashidi,



What is the software’s name and where can I get it? Any info please forward to my e-mail address sukumaransubaramaniyan@yahoo.co.uk



TQ.



Anyway, you haven’t read the private message I forward to you on 27/04/05.



Regards.

Yeah, I must thank him for that.



Now, I am involved in new mega project i.e. highway construction. I found out that there is a special software in the market that could minimize my time to prepare a time location chart that import template from MS Project or P3. In the midst of exploring it. Cool!



Rashidi

hi Ahmad



Sukumaran already well explained and in detai lthe requirement and pocedure of trunaround scheduling.



So you need to be moved accordingly

Hi Sukumaran,



Many wanted to be a Turnaround scheduler as the pay is quite good esp here in Kerteh. But what is the entry requirements needed? How do you start? Assuming that you are from an IT background.



Best regards,

Rashidi

Gwen,



Please don’t tell me the TV programme I referred to is the project you are working on – that would be too funny! Oh well, I guess you are right – prefabricate it somewhere else and sail it up. I can see what you mean about pressure is on to meet sailaway day and the impact that must have on trying to get everything finished before then – finishing at sea must not be fun.



As you say, frantic – great fun – just like the project I am working on at present. A big job for London with an immovable deadline in 2012!! Different from working in the cold with tight commercial deadlines, but working with the Government has its challenges too.



Cheers,



Gary.

If you want to involve in Oil & Gas field, first you shall try to become a Turnaround Scheduler. In plant trunaround you can meet Mechanical, Electrical, Machinery and Instrument Planners.



During the preparation stage the planners will prepare the job method sheet (JMS). The JMS contain all the detail information such as activity description, manpower, equipment and total hours required to complete the job.



As a Turnaround Scheduler, you will use the approved JMS to develop the summary and detail schedule which is resource loaded. Upon completion, you can discussed with the plant engineers as well as with your planners to fine tune the schedule.



Once approved by client, you can distribute the schedule to the contractor for them to follow during the execution period.

Hi Buddy,



Planning and scheduling looks very simple.By mere knowing P3 if anyone could become a planner then the industry would be flooded with planners alone. Well if you really want to be planner the you got to spend some time in site activities , say couple of years and then think of getting in to planning department in which ever field of planning you choose.



well I think you shud learn basics of planning like methodology of activity, sequencing activities, productivity of labour, awareness on right kind and latest equipments for activities, network diagram etc and then get some experience in site to add some confidence behind you and then start planning for a project.



Hope this helps



cheers

you should know the basic planning fundamentals and network preparation rule before starting the career in as a planner.You should know about difeerent phases of project life cycle and basic activities of that. Then you can start your career in planning of any field. Only knowing operation of P3 can’t help you to become a good planner. Remember that planner is not a computer operator only.

Try Airport Projects, there’s lots of IT companies working for the various systems of an airport.

I think try starting with planning in IT projects, I hear there is some scope there.